Development Info Pete Hines Responds

[plin]

I wonder what some of you kids are like in real life. For something so small to get you so angry and flustered, it's amazing. Your dispositions and personalities must lack all patience, understanding, compassion, and reason. I wonder how you'll deal with real horrible situations in life. I wonder if seven or vault dweller, or briosfreak have ever been laid, have ever had real friends.

Plin, I gave plenty of reasons and logical conclusions to explain and present my position. If you disagree, attack my position not me.

Oh, that wasn't an attack. That was just me wondering about something. And I have stated my opinion on this whole matter many times.

First, it was an attack. Second, to satisfy your curiosity, I'm 33, married, have a kid, have been laid, have only 2 good friends. If you don't have any more questions, we move to the point #3. Third, I'm aware of your opinion and, unlike you, I didn't flame you for that by asking idiotic questions about the status of your sex life. How the fuck does that affect my position?

hahahaha!

 

[Vault Dweller]

He was responding to people calling him a liar for saying there wasn't a dev team in place yet, even though Howard said a couple things to a mag.

Actually, he was responding to the article trying to play it down ("it's just the old stuff, guys, don't pay no attention to that") and maintain Bethesda's position that there is nothing to discuss.

Said they were ideas someone had and talked when a mag asked them for comments literaly hours after finding out they'd gotten a license.

lol, that's funny. "after finding out"? Like by accident? Todd went out to get the mail and saw a license on the doorstep? Please. Todd isn't someone, btw. It's not like a janitor gave an inteview telling people what would be cool to see. And like I said many times before, nobody buys things like a license without having a good idea what they are going to do with that. Some of the original ideas may change, but the core, the direction would remain the same.

 

[Brillo]

lol, that's funny. "after finding out"? Like by accident? Todd went out to get the mail and saw a license on the doorstep? Please. Todd isn't someone, btw. It's not like a janitor gave an inteview telling people what would be cool to see. And like I said many times before, nobody buys things like a license without having a good idea what they are going to do with that. Some of the original ideas may change, but the core, the direction would remain the same.

No, like finding the offer you made on a house was accepted.

And companies don't go planning in depth for something they don't know if they'll get. Yes I've heard you say that. And it's wrong. You don't go spending time and money planning for something that might not happen. It's a major risk. If you've got tons of things you're working on you don't take people's time out of that to plan for something when you don't have to. So unless you're asked to (for example to get funding or you're bidding to do some work for someone), you don't. And we all know Interplay didn't care about the direction of the game. They just wanted the money.

Now again, I don't know how much is planned or not. And how many of these ideas Todd mentioned a couple months ago are going to make it from pre-preproduction (or whatever you want to call it) and into the game. None of us knows that. So how about we stop arguing about who can pull the most reasonable guess out of their ass?

 

[Briosafreak]

I wonder what some of you kids are like in real life. For something so small to get you so angry and flustered, it's amazing. Your dispositions and personalities must lack all patience, understanding, compassion, and reason. I wonder how you'll deal with real horrible situations in life. I wonder if seven or vault dweller, or briosfreak have ever been laid, have ever had real friends.

Look kid i`m 33, married, with a 9 yers old son, i had my share of horrible situations in life, good friends, and enough calm and patience to deal with spoiled brats, wich is why i`m responding. If you`re traumatised with the rough time you`re passing through your visits here, particularly my joke rude posts regarding you, then do get some counseling, you won`t regret it. I was only showing you that if you want to be rude someone else can show up and be worse than you, but you seem to have missed the point, and resort to another batch of attention whore desorder actions. A shame really. That might prove to be a mistake, relax and go watch the cartoons now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And companies don't go planning in depth for something they don't know if they'll get.

And you know that how? Ever heard of a business plan? When people prepare a detailed document of planned business activities in order to get a business loan? That they may NOT get?

Yes I've heard you say that. And it's wrong. You don't go spending time and money planning for something that might not happen. It's a major risk.

And buying a license without a good idea of what to do with it is not? A license that costs more then some pocket change? It's a major investment that nobody would ever take lightly. Think about it.

If you've got tons of things you're working on you don't take people's time out of that to plan for something when you don't have to.

Is that a fact? Well, Troika did evidently. They made the whole tech demo just for that.

So how about we stop arguing about who can pull the most reasonable guess out of their ass?

Sure, I hope you stick around for my "I told you so" post.

 

[plin]

What sad old men you are. ahahahaha

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'm 31 (...)

I'm 33 (...)

Christ. You make me feel so terribly fresh by comparison.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Who's 31? I believe that we are both 33, RP.

 

[Briosafreak]

What sad old men you are. ahahahaha

If you would spend less time licking your dogys balls while dad teaches you the hard way how to dress like a girl you could get to a diferent conclusion, i`m sure of it.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I thought you had said 31. My bad.

You're still making me feel better, however :D

 

[Brillo]

And you know that how? Ever heard of a business plan? When people prepare a detailed document of planned business activities in order to get a business loan? That they may NOT get?

And which they most definately won't even be considered for without a plan. Yes I'm familiar with them. I even mentioned that kind of situation in the post you were replying to.

And buying a license without a good idea of what to do with it is not? A license that costs more then some pocket change? It's a major investment that nobody would ever take lightly.

"Some idea of what to do with it" may not include thinking about the same things you would think about. They may have set a story team down and told of to start writing story/setting ideas for all we know. Their planning may not look anything at all like yours, or have addressed the issues that you're worried about.

More importantly, those ideas can and do change frequently in pre-production. And again, their preliminary ideas/plans have come to us in the form of third party quotes devoid of context or followup. And each mags biases slightly coloring which quotes they used, and how they presented them. You may in fact be right about Bethesda's secret plan for a FPS. Or not. We don't know.

Is that a fact? Well, Troika did evidently. They made the whole tech demo just for that.

Far as I know, Troika didn't have a suitable engine, and was trying to get funding cause they didn't have the money. They needed that to show potential funders. Bethesda didn't have that problem. And again, they may have some plans as far as a direction goes, neither one of us knows.

Sure, I hope you stick around for my "I told you so" post.

I don't know you, but from what I've seen, your "I told you so post." will appear if FO3 has departed from the previous games any farther than a FO2 mod.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Dude, do you not read? Todd Howard, Executive Producer on Oblivion got interviewed by some mags a couple months ago when interplay made their announcement.

I'm wondering where you get off asking someone else if they can read when you're claiming Interplay made the announcement. I have the press release about Bethesda buying the exclusive rights to everything Fallout that isn't an MMORPG right here in my PR folder, and the name on the announcement is "Pete Hines". In fact, most places that published the release even start it off with the little "Bethesda announces" bit.

So, yeah, Bethesda announced the thing, not Interplay.

Anyway, this whole thing is pretty funny. Do I think Bethesda will make a good Fallout 3? Eh, I'm not that hopeful about it. Do I think Bethesda will make a good CRPG called 'Fallout 3'? I'm not really hopeful about that either. If they do, then that'd be wonderful and we can all dance the happy dance together - but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

plin.... almost sounds like... idiot!

 

[Brillo]

I'm wondering where you get off asking someone else if they can read when you're claiming Interplay made the announcement.

Honestly sorry if that offended anyone.

I know he can read. I was wondering if he had actually read what I wrote though.

As for the rest, Interplay's announcement came out first I think. And I've had several people tell me Bethesda didn't want to say a thing about it immediately. Interplay however needed everyone to know they were getting some cash.

You're right though, Bethesda did make an annoucnement, I shouldn't have called it Interplay's announcement.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And you know that how? Ever heard of a business plan? When people prepare a detailed document of planned business activities in order to get a business loan? That they may NOT get?

And which they most definately won't even be considered for without a plan. Yes I'm familiar with them. I even mentioned that kind of situation in the post you were replying to.

Then why did you claim that "And companies don't go planning in depth for something they don't know if they'll get"?

Far as I know, Troika didn't have a suitable engine, and was trying to get funding cause they didn't have the money

Far as I and anybody else who paid attention to the news know, Troika does have a suitable engine, and that's what the tech demo demonstrated.

I don't know you, but from what I've seen, your "I told you so post." will appear if FO3 has departed from the previous games any farther than a FO2 mod.

And what pray tell have you seen to reach such a conclusion? What have I stated that proves that I want a carbon copy of FO1?

 

[Brillo]

Then why did you claim that "And companies don't go planning in depth for something they don't know if they'll get"?

And I added a caveat didn't I? They do engage in that type of planning when they're required to, for example to get funding. That's why I could see a company like Troika putting much more effort into planning and even (in their case) doing mock-ups and demonstrations than Bethesda might have. They had to convince an outside group to give them money. Bethesda didn't. Now I don't know if they put the same level of planning into things as Troika did, but I do know it was probably not as necessary for them as if they were trying to convince someone else to take a chance on them or the game like Troika apparently was.

And what pray tell have you seen to reach such a conclusion? What have I stated that proves that I want a carbon copy of FO1?

Ok, fair enough. So what kind of changes are you willing or not willing to accept?

 

[plin]

What sad old men you are. ahahahaha

If you would spend less time licking your dogys balls while dad teaches you the hard way how to dress like a girl you could get to a diferent conclusion, i`m sure of it.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

[plin]

plin.... almost sounds like... idiot!

Mr. Teatime... is a.... idiot!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Now I don't know if they put the same level of planning into things as Troika did, but I do know it was probably not as necessary for them as if they were trying to convince someone else to take a chance on them or the game like Troika apparently was.

True, they had a different position, but still nobody invests money into a project without a business plan and that was my point. A situation where they buy a license and then tell developers "we've just spend a truckload of money on that thingy here, now do something with it to get our money back" is simply illogical.

Ok, fair enough. So what kind of changes are you willing or not willing to accept?

Accept? I'm not in position to accept or reject things. If you are asking me about my position on the Fallout 3 thing then here it is:

1) I really don't care. As far as I'm concerned, FO3 died when VB was canned, maybe even earlier. It would have been nice to see Troika doing something with it, but then again, seeing something new from them would be better.

2) There is no way in hell Bethesda can make a game in the traditions of the first two games simply because their style, approach, design, and mechanics are different, just like Bioware couldn't have done it for the same reasons. Doesn't mean that their style, approach, and design are bad, they are just different.

3) I'm not saying that Beth would make a bad game. Such definitions are highly subjective, but I expect a game that would be very close to Oblivion in style. What kinda game that would be, I have no idea since I didn't pay any attention to the news yet. I liked Daggerfall, but was disappointed in Morrowind. Obviously, some changes are planned, but I don't expect anything drastic. If they put more substance into it, that would be nice.

4) I will look at the game when it's done without prejudice and without expectations. If it would be a much better game then MW was, I will give it a try.

5) I wish they'd stopped misleading people who hope that it will be isometric and TB.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Speaking of which, if for some weird reason turnbased was deemed as outdated and not as appealing to the masses as before (which would go against the success of multiple turnbased games on consoles), and was given instead a realtime twitch fest, the only compromise I'd accept would be a realtime system (not realtime with pause) which combined player and character skills.

 

[errorcode]

just my 2 cents on it...

Most dev houses do a pitch doc which is around 5-10 pages. It outlines what they want to create, what license it will use, and lays out the technologies they think they'll need to license/create to do it. Then they pitch it to the IP holder to secure the license and then they pitch it to a publisher to try and get funding.

Alot of Dev houses scrap there pitch docs and then start fresh once licenses and funding are secured. The actual design process starts then and then continues changing details and sometimes direction over the course of pre-production (and alot of times into production)

I've worked on projects that have drastically changed their whole direction on Combat and character development 2 months prior to ship. It's just how the industry goes.

So, i don't think it would be odd for Bethesda to not have a direction yet or even a solid outline for what they want to do with Fallout 3 right now. They might have some idea docs lying around and some stuff story-boarded, but that's prolly as far as it's really gone as far as actual design.

 

[Brillo]

Accept? I'm not in position to accept or reject things. If you are asking me about my position on the Fallout 3 thing then here it is:

I'd probably agree with most of this. Personally, haven't really been paying attention to FO related stuff since a bit before Tactics was released. I figured it was pretty much dead. *shrug* May still be. It certainly won't be the first franchise I've given up on. I'm not quite ready to just totally give up on a good FO3 though.

I don't think it's fair to label them as having a specific style however. Lots of developers manage to release good games in different styles.

Also don't really think they're misleading people. But, whatever, I guess we'll see how things turn out...

Most dev houses do a pitch doc which is around 5-10 pages. It outlines what they want to create, what license it will use, and lays out the technologies they think they'll need to license/create to do it. Then they pitch it to the IP holder to secure the license and then they pitch it to a publisher to try and get funding.

That's the kind of thing that happens when you're trying to get say, a movie licence, from a company that actually cares about how things turn out. Interplay just straight-up sold the IP to the highest bidder to get some cash though.

So, i don't think it would be odd for Bethesda to not have a direction yet or even a solid outline for what they want to do with Fallout 3 right now. They might have some idea docs lying around and some stuff story-boarded, but that's prolly as far as it's really gone as far as actual design.

That's the general impression I've gotten as well.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't think it's fair to label them as having a specific style however. Lots of developers manage to release good games in different styles.

I'm not saying that the Bethesda developers are incapable of making different games, but Bethesda overall as a company has a style just like every other company does. Bioware, Blizzard, Troika, ID, etc; they all have their unique styles that sets them apart and works for them. I don't expect them to abandon what they do best: exploration-style open-ended story-less FP RPGs. There is a market, there is a demand, and there is no competition.

 

[Seven]

They do engage in that type of planning when they're required to, for example to get funding. That's why I could see a company like Troika putting much more effort into planning and even (in their case) doing mock-ups and demonstrations than Bethesda might have. They had to convince an outside group to give them money. Bethesda didn't. Now I don't know if they put the same level of planning into things as Troika did, but I do know it was probably not as necessary for them as if they were trying to convince someone else to take a chance on them or the game like Troika apparently was.

Do you realize that the crux of your argument makes it sound like they brought the license on a whim? Can you imagine, by your statements (I could compile them if you like) you're doing two things: First, you're saying that yeah they haven't planned anything, nothing's written in stone, there's no dev team, right? Second (and what the latter statement imples), is that they have no idea what they're going to do with the license (or at the very least a very vague idea). I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have a vague idea of what they want to do; this is a fair assessment, right? Well then, here's where the interviews and previews shine because they enable us to see what Beth initially had in mind. Granted, Beth now seems to have flipped flopped (yet again), so what do you want us to do? Give them a third and a forth chance? This is a recurring thing with them where the whine that they were misquoted, or claim that an interview was botched, or just plane deny anything. At some point they have to take responsibility for themselves and admit that they have certain ideas about the direction of the franchaise, and it's future direction; this is what the apologists and the fanboys don't understand; they expect everyone to hope for the best, and accept what we're served despite what we've ordered. I don't remember who said this, but a while back some one said that they (Beth) need to take a standpoint and them stick to it, at least them we all have a similar reference frame.

 

[Sol Invictus]

True, they had a different position, but still nobody invests money into a project without a business plan and that was my point. A situation where they buy a license and then tell developers "we've just spend a truckload of money on that thingy here, now do something with it to get our money back" is simply illogical.

It's illogical to invest a lot of money just to draw up plans for a game that they may or may not attain the license to. Take Stardock as an example, which isn't going to commit any work on the Master of Magic game until they hear responses from fans telling them that it is a surefire thing to go with. Bethesda never had the problem of wondering if it was a surefire license to go with - becauase it is. They did however have the issue of the acquisition of the license itself. Just what would be the point in paying employees who could be working on Oblivion to work on a potentially non-existent game?

Surely they have some rudimentary business plan: next generation console and PC release. RPG. Uses in-house resources like the TES4 engine. But that doesn't mean that they even got as far as drawing up anything beyond the basis: a Fallout setting before they acquired the license.

1) I really don't care. As far as I'm concerned, FO3 died when VB was canned, maybe even earlier. It would have been nice to see Troika doing something with it, but then again, seeing something new from them would be better.

So this is all about Van Buren, isn't it? You're just one of those guys who can't deal with the fact that VB is dead and Black Isle exists no longer. To tell the truth I didn't have much interest with Van Buren, especially after reading the story script and all of JE Sawyer's plans for dumbing down the game. What's so great about that?

2) There is no way in hell Bethesda can make a game in the traditions of the first two games simply because their style, approach, design, and mechanics are different, just like Bioware couldn't have done it for the same reasons. Doesn't mean that their style, approach, and design are bad, they are just different.

Nobody makes their games from a mold, VD. Just look at the differences between Vampire: Bloodlines and Arcanum. Bethesda isn't a shareware company with a single designer who can't do anything other than what he's been doing for years.