[PFKM] Do spellcasters need spell penetration?

[Trashos]

panda, I didn't misinterpret, I just mixed my answer to you with my answer to Xamenos due to a similar point (your complaints about not taking into account gear/buffing), and it may have come across like that.

If character for some strange reason really really wants to kill with rays he'll be an elf with couple of allied spellcasters and won't depend on random ass rng at all.

Let's be clear that the thread started as a general discussion on wizards and spell penetration. Not dedicated builds that try to achieve something very specific. This has all been discussed early, and I explain everything there.

We got a bit more focused for Octavia against Astradaemon, but please understand that the first reason for the experiment was to discuss earlier points. Naturally, Lann desreved his answers for his participation too. The participants didn't care much about Allied Spellcaster, so I left it out by lvl12 and took the Penetrations instead. I cannot force people to take Allied Spellcaster on everyone and adjust their tactics accordingly, it is up to them.

That said, you are making a good point, and I can agree that you can resolve all the issues with SR for an investment of a bunch of penetration feats across companions and the according tactics.

LannTheStupid,
First of all, panda seems to be a wise man on the matter. Secondly, any specific reason why you don't like Evocation on Octavia? I can't answer if I don't understand this.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Trashos I think that the strongest magic schools in Pathfinder: Kingmaker are Conjuration and Transmutation. As Octavia is already specialized in Transmutation I do not want to add weaker Evocation school. So for all your Spell Penetration alternatives, please, keep in mind that at this moment I have no intent to add any other school for Octavia.

 

[Trashos]

Ah I see. I cannot help you with the Conjuration school, I am afraid, I do not use it almost at all due to house rule reasons (and somehow I even forgot its existence for a moment). Yes, it is by far the cheesiest school, but I won't get the details right in order to be of help.

 

[The_Mask]

Now I wanna roll an Abjurer with max spell pen, so I can flick a devourer with 1 click.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol, Trash, that was exactly my original analysis on Ithulliak that you blithely ignored. That is exactly the point. How much does SR reduce miss chance?

I have asked you twice to see your analysis, where the fuck is it? Where is this post I am repeatedly missing?

In your own fucking thread, dipshit.

All this wild goose chase because you want to justify leaving out spell pen from your EK gish that will almost certainly disappoint after playing Sword Saint. You’re going from most interesting to most boring.

But yes, by all means, your gish should be able to do some AoE but leave off the spell pen. That’s for the big boys (I’m not taking it much either since I don’t play pure casters much).

 

[Xamenos]

Eh, no, that was your responsibility.

My responsibility? I am confused. I thought you wanted to get some useful results. Why won't do the work required before you start crunching numbers?

Anyway, the results will slightly change.

Yes, that is my point exactly. Every buff you don't use, every item you ignore, every variable you assume away changes the results slightly. And then before you know it all those slight changes add up, and you have a very beautiful mathematical model that describes spherical cows rolling down a hill.

Averages do not matter in limited pools, worst case scenarios do.

Both matter.

 

[LannTheStupid]

So the only person with any alternative to spell penetration feats has offered metamagic for a wizard.

OK.

 

[Desiderius]

So the only person with any alternative to spell penetration feats has offered metamagic for a wizard.

OK.

Well he is the only nuker here. You should try filling up your spellbook with metamagicked rays sometime. It’s fun.

 

[bec de corbin]

Metamagic is great, though you can replicate those feats with rods if you want, I guess. Heighten is a useful one to take, though, because you can manually adjust the level of spells with it.

I usually take spell pen, though, because missing due to resistance feels really shitty. You can use different spells to target whichever save is lowest but spell resistance is universal.

Of course, I suppose an EK could happily do without it if they're mostly relying on wizard buffs and stuff rather than offensive spells.

 

[Whisper]

List is not complete.

Poisonous Flytrap-like Treant 33 SR.

From Carnival Glade.

 

[Trashos]

LannTheStupid,

I will try to get the people who use Conjuration motivated by suggesting a build here. The plan is that others chip in and suggest improvements.
Note that this build is indeed heavy theorycrafting, because it is not something I have used or planning to use myself, and my only experience with Conjuration are the buffing spells and Chains of Light.

Conjuration Octavia

Spoiler

3. Wiz2 Accomplished Sneak Attacker
4. Wiz3 (you need to raise Mobility and Knowledge Arcana to 4 by this point, so that you can take AT next)
5. AT1 Precise Shot
6. AT2
7. AT3 Weapon Foc(Ray)
8. AT4
9. AT5 Heighten Spell
10. AT6
11. AT7 Spell Focus (Conjuration)
12. AT8
13. AT9 Shake it Off
14. AT10
15. Wiz4 Blind Fight
16. Wiz5 Gr. Spell Focus (Conjuration)
17. Wiz6 ImprCrit(Ray)
18. Wiz7
19. Wiz8 Augm. Summoning/Impr. Initiative/ Gr. Weapon Foc(Ray)/ Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Focus Evocation/ Spell Specialization

If you do not want to take Blindfight or Shake it Off, take some of the feats listed on lvl19 instead. (I do strongly recommend that you take Blind Fight, especially if you are planning to do Ch7)
Other people should chip in for Conjuration tactics. In general, you are going to have a few Acid spells that completely disregard SR (although note that the Astradaemon is immune to Acid), and some very cheesy Poison spells, which you can safely use by first casting Delay Poison on you (funnily enough, the Astradaemon is immune to poison too).

Once lvl 14, you get Surprise Spells bonus feat, which means that your AT can sneak attack with spells that attack saving throws too (and not only with rays).

 

[Trashos]

Desiderius, oh there it is. You could have quoted it when I asked you, you know. I missed it and I thought you were trolling me. Gonna look at it first chance.

spell resistance is universal.

Whatever floats your boat, but my major point here is exactly that spell resistance is very rare, and thus I wouldn't call it "universal"

Why won't do the work required before you start crunching numbers?

I obviously did a lot of work, and was forced to do it for both sides of the argument. I left the analysis posts open to suggestions for improvements. Then you yourselves forget about Reduce Person, and blame me (the guy who did all the work) that I forgot Reduce Person. Right.

You would make a great middle manager.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Again - why? Transmutation school is very good in this game, Octavia has additional slots for this school, and Baleful Polymorph is a perfect save or die spell for her. Especially now, when it preserves loot (as it, apparently, should be doing all the time). Surely, this build is viable, but as Desiderius has shown countless times it is really difficult to build something not viable in a good party.

Actually, what can be taken instead of 2 Spell Penetrations are Transmutation foci.

In general - I am starting to appreciate InEffect a lot more now.

P.S.: my next playthrough will be as a Conjuration DC Wizard. Don't know yet will it be on Unfair or not.

 

[Trashos]

All, right, there you go. You seem to have a plan.

 

[Trashos]

Desiderius,
All right, I looked at the Ilthuliak post. Doesn't change my conclusions, but good analysis.

 

[Desiderius]

Dude, play the goddamned game first then report back. Your idle speculation is meaningless. You have yet to do an ounce of work that matters. SR is not rare at all. It’s on all the toughest mobs. Nobody plays full caster so they can sit around picking their ass on the hardest fights.

CEO material

 

[Trashos]

Feel free to to focus on what your character is bad at, instead of what your character is good at, in a party of 6.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Nobody plays full caster so they can sit around picking their ass on the hardest fights.

Well, DC control casters kind of do just that. They beat some saves and then plink from an arbalet and cackle in the corner. And may be summon.

Actually, let me link this here: Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Wizards This is written for tabletoppers, but some things might be useful for a CRPG as well.