KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[SymbolicFrank]

So, X-COM. Or rather, UFO. Let's say you never played it. I remember my first time...

I get to build a base. Always fun to do. So, I have to buy these rooms. What do they do? Interesting... And all the stuff I can buy! Let's see...

Crap! An UFO! Now what do I do? Let's launch these planes and shoot it down! Hm, that didn't go all that well. But it crash-landed! Cool!

Ah, I have soldiers, right? Let's load them up and go visit the crash site! Hmmm, rocket launcher? Heavy cannon? Sounds good! Ok, I have ten soldiers, let's take six for now and load them up with all the good stuff!

Cool! We landed! Let's embark, and... Shit! What the hell did just happen? He stepped on the ramp and got killed? How?

Ok, let's try this again. Step by step, and... Shit! Killed as well! There's some alien there! And he isn't missing! Damn! What do I do now?

Ok, ok. Perhaps if I stand here, or better yet: crouch there, I might, yes, I see him! Shoot it!

What, not enough time units? But, but... Ah, carrying too much. Bummer. Go away there, and let me try again with someone else. Kill! Grr, missed.

But, perhaps now is the time to go outside, that alien's time units will be gone as well. Sounds like a plan.

Aaaannnddd, so far so good! Next one to this side, and... Damn! There is another alien over there! He just killed... Wait, what just happened? What? He went berserk and killed his team mates? Really? Really?

What the fuck do I do now?


You have to love the sheer brutality. At the start, you're totally outgunned. Your recruits cannot hit the side of a barn, and the aliens never miss. If they see you, you're dead. So, you discover that the best technique to take them out is just throwing recruits at them until they run out of time units. Order them by the dozens! They won't last! Cram your plane full with them. And keep a few officers safely in the back of your plane at all times.

After a while, you just start to destroy any spot that might hide an alien. Whole buildings, just to make sure. But not the UFO's of course. You have to take them intact. That's why you make sure you have enough recruits to breech them long after all the officers have flying suits. And then the blaster bombs arrive.

And that's what all the sequels and remakes did wrong. You have a very limited recruiting pool and can only bring a small team. Who probably all survive. Even at the start. Bah.

 

[Mustawd]

You have to love the sheer brutality. At the start, you're totally outgunned

Your play by play description of learning to play x-com is my experience to a tee.



Edit: Also

“Ok I have a grenade. Ok let me throw it. Wait, nothing happened. *checks manual* I have to prime it!!?? Oh crap. Ok lemme go pick it up. Ok lemme prime it to shortest time. Oh no he got kiled. Oh no...my grenade killed all the guys around him!!”

 

[Alienman]

Yep, that is one thing I miss the most - being able to take casualties without it actually screwing up the whole run.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

It cost them between $200,000 & 250,000 per character in that game

Are you on drugs?

Not while I'm on here.

That's how much the developers said it cost them to make one 2D character with all the animations and frames they did in Skullgirls. That's also a level of work you'd never need to do for a character in a isometric game.

 

[Cyberarmy]

And that's what all the sequels and remakes did wrong

That's what happened to me back then when I first played it. After many glourious fails we finally learned how to win and completed the game. Nu gamer fags probably quit the game, uninstall it and cry on steam forums/ratings after first minor defeat nowadays...

 

[Galdred]

And that's what all the sequels and remakes did wrong

That's what happened to me back then when I first played it. After many glourious fails we finally learned how to win and completed the game. Nu gamer fags probably quit the game, uninstall it and cry on steam forums/ratings after first minor defeat nowadays...

Actually, that is not the problem itself:
In X-COM/UFO it was perfectly reasonable to keep going after taking heavy casualties, while in nuXCOM, given that it really snowballs quickly (getting someone to Sergent ASAP to increase your squad capacity, getting superpower earlier), having crippling loss early on can make the campaign unwinnable.
I agree that many players may have thrown the campaign too early, but it is hard to tell whether you are ahead or beyond the curve.
The first minor defeat in nuXCOM usually leads to a moderate defeat that leads to a crippling defeat because so much depends on keeping your soldiers leveled up and alive, and you have very little ways to mitigate casualties.

 

[ArchAngel]

And that's what all the sequels and remakes did wrong

That's what happened to me back then when I first played it. After many glourious fails we finally learned how to win and completed the game. Nu gamer fags probably quit the game, uninstall it and cry on steam forums/ratings after first minor defeat nowadays...

Actually, that is not the problem itself:
In X-COM/UFO it was perfectly reasonable to keep going after taking heavy casualties, while in nuXCOM, given that it really snowballs quickly (getting someone to Sergent ASAP to increase your squad capacity, getting superpower earlier), having crippling loss early on can make the campaign unwinnable.
I agree that many players may have thrown the campaign too early, but it is hard to tell whether you are ahead or beyond the curve.
The first minor defeat in nuXCOM usually leads to a moderate defeat that leads to a crippling defeat because so much depends on keeping your soldiers leveled up and alive, and you have very little ways to mitigate casualties.

And that leads to a harder but less fun game.

 

[Jimmious]

Actually I'm trying to think of another game were casualties were to be expected as much as in X-COM. I can't. Even in JA2 which is the Best Tactics Game Ever™ I would rarely allow any merc to die in a mission, mainly because they all had character .
Battle Brothers came close but in higher levels it was really hard to accept a loss, simply because it meant quite some grinding to get someone back up there.
Is there some game I'm forgetting? Were the old X-COMs (and their clones like Xenonauts of course) the only ones that managed that?

*In Mordheim maybe that would happen from time to time but it was basically a roll, completely different handling

 

[Galdred]

Actually I'm trying to think of another game were casualties were to be expected as much as in X-COM. I can't. Even in JA2 which is the Best Tactics Game Ever™ I would rarely allow any merc to die in a mission, mainly because they all had character .
Battle Brothers came close but in higher levels it was really hard to accept a loss, simply because it meant quite some grinding to get someone back up there.
Is there some game I'm forgetting? Were the old X-COMs (and their clones like Xenonauts of course) the only ones that managed that?

*In Mordheim maybe that would happen from time to time but it was basically a roll, completely different handling

Blood Bowl, because its primary multiplayer nature forces you to accept casualties and move on.
Now the attrition rate is usually not that high, unless you play a squishy race, but it can be pretty significant over the course of a season.

 

[Cyberarmy]

You know, I had foolishly hoped after XComs tutorial, which nearly kills all of our soldiers, we gonna need some cannon fodders/unavoidable losses.
Then I completed the game with out anymore casualties...

 

[ArchAngel]

You know, I had foolishly hoped after XComs tutorial, which nearly kills all of our soldiers, we gonna need some cannon fodders/unavoidable losses.
Then I completed the game with out anymore casualties...

That just means you played on baby difficulty.

 

[PanteraNera]

You know, I had foolishly hoped after XComs tutorial, which nearly kills all of our soldiers, we gonna need some cannon fodders/unavoidable losses.
Then I completed the game with out anymore casualties...

That just means you played on baby difficulty.

Speaking from experience

 

[ArchAngel]

You know, I had foolishly hoped after XComs tutorial, which nearly kills all of our soldiers, we gonna need some cannon fodders/unavoidable losses.
Then I completed the game with out anymore casualties...

That just means you played on baby difficulty.

Speaking from experience

Yes from experience playing on Classic and later on Impossible difficulty. And you don't finish Xcom 1 on Impossible/Ironman on first try without losing anyone. Not even Classic/Ironman on first try will let you have everyone alive .

 

[Jimmious]

Well yes this is true. The problem is that when you lose someone you feel like you lost the game which shouldn't be the case

 

[Grotesque]

That's how much the developers said it cost them to make one 2D character with all the animations and frames they did in Skullgirls. That's also a level of work you'd never need to do for a character in a isometric game.

They were on drugs then when they came up with that number.
Because, just for comparison, to come out of the ship pipeline from concept to being playable in Star Citizen , a medium ship that is way more complex to create, costs around 150 k - 200 k USD.

The only other explanation, maybe they made the game in a country that is at the opposite pole of Bulgaria in terms of game development costs - Bulgaria being the only country where you can make 4 million game with just one.

Well yes this is true. The problem is that when you lose someone you feel like you lost the game which shouldn't be the case

I hope in Pheonix Point you'll be able to swarm the enemy with sheer number of newb soldiers if you have a finely tuned economy and you can afford it.
Of course that would not be the answer to win the game but a bullet does the same damage if it lands from the hands of a veteran or a green soldier.

In a world where PP has 10 million bucks for development, maybe the game can track the rate which you burn through the soldiers and leave them for dead in missions and as a consequence you would find harder and harder to recruit soldiers because no one would want to join under your sorry ass leadership.

 

[Grotesque]

 

[SymbolicFrank]

I hope in Pheonix Point you'll be able to swarm the enemy with sheer number of newb soldiers if you have a finely tuned economy and you can afford it.
Of course that would not be the answer to win the game but a bullet does the same damage if it lands from the hands of a veteran or a green soldier.

Great way to implement the difficulty level. Because aliens should rarely miss in any case. And I agree: a hit is a hit.

 

[ArchAngel]

one.

Well yes this is true. The problem is that when you lose someone you feel like you lost the game which shouldn't be the case

I hope in Pheonix Point you'll be able to swarm the enemy with sheer number of newb soldiers if you have a finely tuned economy and you can afford it.
Of course that would not be the answer to win the game but a bullet does the same damage if it lands from the hands of a veteran or a green soldier.

In a world where PP has 10 million bucks for development, maybe the game can track the rate which you burn through the soldiers and leave them for dead in missions and as a consequence you would find harder and harder to recruit soldiers because no one would want to join under your sorry ass leadership.

I think they talked about how getting recruits will not be easy with how humanity was mostly destroyed. Also I remember they talked how your soldiers will not die as easily as in X-Com and Xcom but they will get wounded and will need to recover for long times. Combined that with not a big access to lots of new troops will form the difficulty and choice making for players on how to run missions and with how many soldiers.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

It's a difficult balance to strike. We don't want to be like XCOM, where losing 2 or 3 of your best soldiers can cripple you for the whole campaign. At the same time, we don't want to make soldiers feel like expendable cannon fodder.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

That's how much the developers said it cost them to make one 2D character with all the animations and frames they did in Skullgirls. That's also a level of work you'd never need to do for a character in a isometric game.

They were on drugs then when they came up with that number.
Because, just for comparison, to come out of the ship pipeline from concept to being playable in Star Citizen , a medium ship that is way more complex to create, costs around 150 k - 200 k USD.

The only other explanation, maybe they made the game in a country that is at the opposite pole of Bulgaria in terms of game development costs - Bulgaria being the only country where you can make 4 million game with just one.

Well yes this is true. The problem is that when you lose someone you feel like you lost the game which shouldn't be the case

I hope in Pheonix Point you'll be able to swarm the enemy with sheer number of newb soldiers if you have a finely tuned economy and you can afford it.
Of course that would not be the answer to win the game but a bullet does the same damage if it lands from the hands of a veteran or a green soldier.

In a world where PP has 10 million bucks for development, maybe the game can track the rate which you burn through the soldiers and leave them for dead in missions and as a consequence you would find harder and harder to recruit soldiers because no one would want to join under your sorry ass leadership.

I can see animating hand drawn characters that have as many frames of animation as Skullgirls characters do costing more than a 3D spaceship. I could also see it not being as time consuming as traditional animation. Hell, when I was in school there were some people in my animation class that make Star Wars ships in Maya with their spare class time. I don't really follow Star Citizen at all, but what I've seen of it doesn't make the spaceships look like animation overload or anything, they don't seem to have lots of little moving parts. Most of the work probably just went into modeling and textures.

 

[Jimmious]

It's a difficult balance to strike. We don't want to be like XCOM, where losing 2 or 3 of your best soldiers can cripple you for the whole campaign. At the same time, we don't want to make soldiers feel like expendable cannon fodder.

I believe that a good way to make losses acceptable is simply to not allow individual soldiers to get overpowered (like they do in XCOM). Make the equipment be more important than the soldier, progression wise

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

It's a difficult balance to strike. We don't want to be like XCOM, where losing 2 or 3 of your best soldiers can cripple you for the whole campaign. At the same time, we don't want to make soldiers feel like expendable cannon fodder.

Do you create your own soldiers yourself in this like the XCOM games, or are there actual characters you recruit like some other series have...or both? I can't remember if I've heard how this is handling that aspect. I'd imagine them being set characters would go a long way in making them feel less like expendable cannon fodder.

 

[Grotesque]

I can see animating hand drawn characters that have as many frames of animation as Skullgirls characters do costing more than a 3D spaceship. I could also see it not being as time consuming as traditional animation. Hell, when I was in school there were some people in my animation class that make Star Wars ships in Maya with their spare class time. I don't really follow Star Citizen at all, but what I've seen of it doesn't make the spaceships look like animation overload or anything, they don't seem to have lots of little moving parts. Most of the work probably just went into modeling and textures.

If you really believe that, you're really out of touch.
You're one of those that if you deconstruct their bullshit, they're able to say that is night outside when is clearly day, just for the sake of argument.
You know that a ship in SC is more than a 3D model, is animation, physics code integration, UI design on multiple sections, LOD states, damage states and destruction breakup and god knows how many more shit I am not aware of.

Just for your viewing pleasure. From concept to flight ready:

Also, animation. And most ships (including this one) have landing gears and ramps the same as complex as in the video example.


Compare that with drawing 2D cartoonish characters in a fight game and still tell me they cost the same

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

 

[Grotesque]

At the start, you're totally outgunned. Your recruits cannot hit the side of a barn, and the aliens never miss.

But that is not true.

I recently installed open X-COM: Terror from the Deep and played some combat turns (high difficulty) just for the kicks to adjust the graphics settings and kicked some alien butt easily. My aquanauts made some amazing long range shot that killed the aliens on the spot, alien missed quite a lot.
And that playing superficially, not using grenades or making blind spots via grenade explosions.

The fact that you can see on battle the move path of the soldier along with remaining time units on each square makes a whole lot of difference.

A good UI that conveys information in a nice visual, intuitive way makes all the difference.

That is what sequels did wrong.
They think that TUs is a convoluted system where the problem lies in the UI.
UnderRail is a clear example of a success story in that department


On the other hand if you design xcom to be a game to be played also by the soccer mom in her spare time after dropping the kids to practice and she is not familiarized with the fundamental knowledge of a turn based genre because she only played Candy Crush Saga Online until then, you must streamline™ the game.

It's not lucrative to design a deep game nowadays, where the market is saturated and the consumer will hop in no time to the next best thing if you take him out just a little bit from his comfort zone.
Just look at the completion rates of games on Steam.

Not being lucrative, that's where the designer vision comes into play for his game and what takes priority - an ankle deep game but with nice graphics or a deep one for a niche market.

But fret not! Gollop will be the first to achieve mastery with his "master on none" game