Pillars of Eternity 3.03 sans expansion: Final Judgment from the 1st Disciple of Sawyerity

[Roguey]

Nice read. I'm sorry to come out as a stranger, but why no White Marches? Those were the zenith of the game for me.
Better itemization (soulbound, charged), narrative (motive in action), scripted interactions (many hits but also few big misses there), side quests, reactivity to MC and two of the best companions (Zahua and Devil) are all hidden there.

I only have the DRM-free disc version installed and don't want to download the full version plus expansions.

Obsidian claims they have plans to put up a version for sale that will work with my copy, so I may give it a try in the future. I was forward-thinking enough to make a save at level 7.

 

[Fairfax]

No wonder this is the preferred class of Chris Avellone

That's not the reason, though. He liked and pushed for the Cipher class because it's based on a major element of the lore (souls).

I had to rest twice in a row at the end just to finish Durance's quest, and it's somewhat disappointing how, unlike all the other companions, there were no roleplaying choices to make with him other than choosing to finish the conversation or not.

Blame Sawyer, he's the one who cut 3/4 of Durance and GM's content.

(everything except Berath's quest and one that required bird-stealing

A shame, that's one of the few memorable sidequests to me, and a rare case of funny wackiness in the game.

 

[Excidium II]

That's not the reason, though. He liked and pushed for the Cipher class because it's based on a major element of the lore (souls).

But all magix is soul-based.

 

[Fairfax]

That's not the reason, though. He liked and pushed for the Cipher class because it's based on a major element of the lore (souls).

But all magix is soul-based.

Wizards and normal magic are based on the powers of the user's own soul. Ciphers manipulate other souls with mental power, more like D&D Psionics.
MCA argued that with the way souls work in the lore, the Cipher was an unique opportunity to explore the game's major themes, which is what he did with the Grieving Mother. He also said he had to actively push for the class early in the game's development, as Sawyer believed the game had too many and wanted to cut a few.
I imagined people would've been pissed off if the game had fewer classes than promised, so I don't know if that happened before/during/after they'd been announced in the Kickstarter updates.

 

[Morkar Left]

I'll agree with Sensuki on at least one thing: exploring nothing but wide maps doesn't feel very-Infinity-Engine-like. I'd have liked to have explored some squares and vertical rectangles. The combat density in these wide non-Od Nua maps is between the first Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale (not counting expansions, my BG kills: 700 IWD: 1700 PoE: 1300 with a brief excursion through level 7 of Od Nua, 1100 without); I can understand the angst from BG superfans who want huge empty places to clear black in, but I'm fine with it, and it shouldn't come as a surprise considering Sawyer's pre-release thoughts on it (BG too empty, IWD2 too dense).

Interesting. I would have thought BG had more to kill (plus without being able to avoid it). Did you play BG with or without TotSC?

I played on Hard difficulty, and I thought it was fantastic. Just about every area had a good number of demanding/interesting fights by the same standard I used for BG/IWD/IWD2 (anything that requires more than auto-attacking or per-encounter rote actions),

... but I'm just an above-average player who thought that Hard was plenty hard (no, I won't be playing Path of the Damned), and who completed Icewind Dale 1+2 and Baldur's Gate within the last few years and therefore not influenced by blurry nostalgic memories or user-made difficulty mods by and for aforementioned pros.

Above-average player and Hard was plenty of hard? That's interesting... The unmodded BG series and IWD 1 (didn't play 2) were a LOT harder on average with core rules difficulty. Basically the bear cave and Eothas temple were on the same level most encounters in BG were. I never played BG with any difficulty mods, but I rarely used potions and felt really challengend in most non-trash mob encounters.

PotD in PoE seems on par with BG core rules difficulty so far for me while hard started to become a snore fest as soon as I entered Defiance Bay and it wasn't really challenging at start either. In PotD I have to see if the difficulty drops again in the city to unbearable easy. But maybe it's just a midgame design problem and the difficulty gets up again after dyrford village (I didn't play much further because it became to unchallenging).

I think the biggest problem PoE has in regards of encounters is that magical users can be knocked out right in the beginning of combat. They all should have an emergency spell that fires up instantly as soon as combat starts to cast some protection spell. Maybe using their aegis for that. Would firearms still be extremely dangerous for magicians but leveling the field a bit. Otherwise it's just to easy to kill them in the first rounds.

Another problem is the lack of range in the game. Spell ranges and missile weapon ranges are just to short to be used effectively. They don't allow to use formation and tactical positioning in a meaningful way. It's always best to stay in a tight formation to have your buffers cast their spells and leaving your magic casters protected.
It's a shame because I consider the engagement mechanic to be a huge improvement to the rtwp formula. It just can't shine that way. Without giving enough range to missile weapons and magic users it's a bit like playing american football but not allowing throwing the ball. You have only line play and rarely anything else. Give your backfield some room to navigate and use their abilities.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Ninjerk]

The irony that Roguey's review is the most sincere.

 

[Prime Junta]

I don't care for ciphers either. I find the gameplay numbingly rote and repetitive. It's a cool concept though and I think I would really dig it in a PnP campaign where there would be many more possibilities to use those abilities out of combat -- mind-reading, reading auras off objects, all that kind of shit.

(Same for monks. I've given them an honest try but just can't learn to like them, whether I build them passively or actively. My main issue with them is that to really make them shine you have to get the defences just right -- too much and they don't rack up any wounds and are just a lackluster fighter, too little and they go down like ninepins. It's irritatingly fiddly, and also I dislike the idea of a character that wants to be hit on general principles.)

 

[Gord]

Above-average player and Hard was plenty of hard? That's interesting... The unmodded BG series and IWD 1 (didn't play 2) were a LOT harder on average with core rules difficulty. Basically the bear cave and Eothas temple were on the same level most encounters in BG were. I never played BG with any difficulty mods, but I rarely used potions and felt really challengend in most non-trash mob encounters.

I've restarted PoE (v3.03) recently due to finally getting White March and did find the balance more sensible compared to the 1.x versions.
Imo, hard now feels harder than before and the game manages to present a good challenge (so far that is) during many encounters even with some experience in the game (there are still pushover trash-mobs, but that's not a big issue imo).
Admittedly there are two things to consider, though:
1. There are fluctuations in difficulty, esp. in Act 2. Defiance Bay still feels a bit as if it's balanced towards being doable even for people that ignored all the side content in Act 1 and arrived without most of the companions, as well.
2. I'm playing with a party of 5 so far. One party member less should make the game a bit more difficult, on the other hand I gain levels slightly faster.

 

[Infinitron]

PoE's system is pretty cool if you're not good enough (or don't have the patience to play well enough) for the game to be easy. All of those active abilities change from "click-click-click spammy rote DPS" to seat-of-your-pants reactive techniques to save your party's ass in dangerous situations.

 

[Morkar Left]

Above-average player and Hard was plenty of hard? That's interesting... The unmodded BG series and IWD 1 (didn't play 2) were a LOT harder on average with core rules difficulty. Basically the bear cave and Eothas temple were on the same level most encounters in BG were. I never played BG with any difficulty mods, but I rarely used potions and felt really challengend in most non-trash mob encounters.

I've restarted PoE (v3.03) recently due to finally getting White March and did find the balance more sensible compared to the 1.x versions.
Imo, hard now feels harder than before and the game manages to present a good challenge (so far that is) during many encounters even with some experience in the game (there are still pushover trash-mobs, but that's not a big issue imo).
Admittedly there are two things to consider, though:
1. There are fluctuations in difficulty, esp. in Act 2. Defiance Bay still feels a bit as if it's balanced towards being doable even for people that ignored all the side content in Act 1 and arrived without most of the companions, as well.
2. I'm playing with a party of 5 so far. One party member less should make the game a bit more difficult, on the other hand I gain levels slightly faster.

I restarted already with 3.03 on hard and my experiences are based on this with Defiance Bay included (including crippling etc. activated, expert mode deactivated, rogue main char, Eder, Aeloth, Durance, Kana, Pellegina). I played till around Dyrford with 1.0x. Because I considered 3.03 on hard still too easy (but better regarding ressource management compared to 1.0x) I restarted again on PotD difficulty.
I guess it's partly a design decision to have easy encounters in Defiance Bay (which will hopefully change again after but Dyrford didn't look like it I played the first time) and partly the problem that enemy spellcasters are too easy to eliminate. E.g. I consider the animancer chick (who was funny btw) in Raedrics Hold and the necromancer (who was funny, too) in the sewers of Defiance Bay to be some sort of boss encounters and they are really easy compared to standard enemies like ghosts/phantoms or god beware lions and wild life in general. That's especially buffling since they are entirely optional. You can either completely avoid fighting them (and still getting xp) or you can choose to fight them whenever you want. And the unavoidable boss encounters like in the sanatorium I found to be really easy again.
I guess it makes a huge difference how many party members you have. You took a party of 5. I prefer 6 and won't go with less because I think a party of 6 is ideal for customization and diversity (no, not that kind of diversity).

 

[Brancaleone]

PoE's system is pretty cool if you're not good enough (or don't have the patience to play well enough) for the game to be easy.

Well, that was quite an endorsement.

Since the game is pretty easy, even on higher difficulties, if we had to take your word on it that would mean that PoE's system is pretty cool if you are bad at playing the game.
Or, it's pretty cool if the game discourages you enough from making proper use of its system.
Or, it's pretty cool if you have attention deficit disorder.

Those are the true marks of a great RPG system for sure.

 

[Infinitron]

It wasn't meant to be an endorsement.

Complaints that "PoE's combat isn't tactical, it's strategic" are inevitably made by people who invest a lot of effort into their party's strategic disposition (character build, equipment loadout, initial positioning, alpha striking, etc). If you choose to pay less attention to those things and just kind of wing your way from encounter to encounter, the difficulty of the game shifts towards tactics and using your active abilities reactively.

Roguey may well have had to think on his feet in battles more than other people did, so I'm not sure it's fair to call him a bad player. He did manage to beat the game fairly quickly, I think. How many hours did it take you, Roguey?

 

[Atchodas]

PoE on Hard does not take more than auto attacking especially after you reach Defiance Bay

 

[Brancaleone]

It wasn't meant to be an endorsement.

Complaints that "PoE's combat isn't tactical, it's strategic" are inevitably made by people who invest a lot of effort into their party's strategic disposition (character build, equipment loadout, initial positioning, alpha striking, etc). If you choose to pay less attention to those things and just kind of wing your way from encounter to encounter, the difficulty of the game shifts towards tactics and using your active abilities reactively.

People invest most of their effort into their party's strategic disposition because there is not much else to invest into.

You are basically saying that PoE's system becomes cool if you ignore most of it. Well done.

 

[Infinitron]

People invest most of their effort into their party's strategic disposition because there is not much else to invest into.

You won't know that for sure until you try!

I think that in a system that features lots and lots of only moderately powerful character abilities, it's difficult to create battles that can't be trivialized by coordinating all those abilities to lay THE PERFECT AMBUSH on every enemy encounter. The enemy AI will rarely be smart enough to do the same thing to you. You can tell that Obsidian understood this and put an effort into creating enemies that can stun you and ambush your backline, especially in The White March expansion, but even that can be predicted and defended against. The deck was always stacked against them because they're working with an inherently difficult paradigm.

The secret of AD&D is how it seems to be unintentionally incredibly well-suited to computer AI. At low levels, neither you nor the enemies have much in the way of abilities and your ability to put together the perfect alpha strike is limited, so you have to just dive into combat and "fight fair". And at high levels, there are OP abilities that are crude and simple enough that the AI can use them effectively against you without needing split-second coordination. Give the enemy an insta-killing spell, give him magic immunity that needs to be stripped away, and presto, "memorable encounter".

 

[Brancaleone]

People invest most of their effort into their party's strategic disposition because there is not much else to invest into.

I think that in a system that features lots and lots of only moderately powerful character abilities, it's difficult to create battles that can't be trivialized by coordinating all those abilities to lay THE PERFECT AMBUSH on every enemy encounter. The enemy AI will rarely be smart enough to do the same thing to you. You can tell that Obsidian understood this and put an effort into creating enemies that can stun you and ambush your backline, especially in The White March expansion, but even that can be predicted and defended against. The deck was always stacked against them because they working with a difficult paradigm.

So, to sum it up: you are saying JS has crapped out a system that is quite unsuited to AI (unlike for example AD&D, I hear you saying), and he used it as the core of a computer game. Chapeau to our system designer.
And that system only becomes pretty cool if you disregard as much of it as you can. Double chapeau.

I guess we got to the bottom of the issue.

 

[Atchodas]

Spoiler

/thread

 

[Infinitron]

So, to sum it up: you are saying JS has crapped out a system that is quite unsuited to AI (unlike for example AD&D, I hear you saying), and he used it as the core of a computer game. Chapeau to our system designer.

No other system designer would have done differently. It's the modern paradigm of RPG design, including in PnP. People want characters with lots of abilities. CRPG developers will just have to learn to create better encounters and AI.

 

[Brancaleone]

So, to sum it up: you are saying JS has crapped out a system that is quite unsuited to AI (unlike for example AD&D, I hear you saying), and he used it as the core of a computer game.

No other system designer would have done differently.

Uh ... er ... yeah, ... sure. Sure.

Just let me get out of this thread very, very quietly.

 

[Bubbles]

I think that in a system that features lots and lots of only moderately powerful character abilities

That doesn't really apply to PoE though, does it? Hard crowd control AoEs are king, and even the game's toughest enemies can be disabled with confuse/dominate/petrify/paralyze/prone/unconscious/stun effects (even after the introduction of immunities, enemies have far too many vulnerabilities). Wizards and priests are supremely powerful and capable of wiping out entire encounters on their own with easy access to game breakingly powerful debuffs, strong self-buffs and immunity spells. I beat Llengrath and her two dragons by simply stacking Walls of Many Colors of top of them; they were too stupid to walk out of the ground effect. Even the D:OS 2 EA has better AI. Concelhaut and the Alpine Dragon were comfortably tanked by a yawning Eder while my casters destroyed the enemies with Shadowflame (that one spell would be enough to totally upend the game's balance) and the various other CC abilities. I used various self-imposed restrictions (reload on knockdown, no consumables, not more than one rest per map, no enemy group splitting), and the game still felt easy on PotD.

With the White March patches, the devs gave the party easy access to hard immunities while leaving obvious gaps in the enemies' defenses. One guy is immune to stun? Petrify him! This one is immune to petrify? Knock him unconscious! Etc. etc. It forces the player to rotate their abilities a bit, but it doesn't actually make the game harder. And then you get Wall of Many Colors, which conveniently applies nearly every type of hard CC in one cast, and which the AI is too stupid to avoid.

And at high levels, there are OP abilities that are crude and simple enough that the AI can use them effectively against you without needing split-second coordination.

There are plenty of "crude and simple" spells in PoE, and even more of them were added by TWM; the enemies are just not using them. Imagine if enemy groups used the same mix of low-level (!) prone, stun and paralyze AoEs that the player has access to - the game would become far more difficult, probably to the point of frustration. Even something as simple as casting Stuck on your melee fighters could have a huge effect. But the devs clearly want the combat to be asymmetrical, and so they give you a lot of overpowered tools and throw hundreds of trash mobs at you to pad out the narrative a bit.

 

[Infinitron]

That doesn't really apply to PoE though, does it? Hard crowd control AoEs are king, and even the game's toughest enemies can be disabled with confuse/dominate/petrify/paralyze/prone/unconscious/stun effects (even after the introduction of immunities, enemies have far too many vulnerabilities).

Status effects which according to many dissatisfied grognards (you're not one of them) have ridiculously short durations compared to their AD&D counterparts. And they might indeed be too short for the AI to exploit them as effectively a player does.

Imagine if enemy groups used the same mix of low-level (!) prone, stun and paralyze AoEs that the player has access to - the game would become far more difficult, probably to the point of frustration.

So maybe not.

 

[Roguey]

Interesting. I would have thought BG had more to kill (plus without being able to avoid it). Did you play BG with or without TotSC?

With, but I didn't count the expansion total in that number. Tales of the Sword Coast adds another 160.

The number's so low because I didn't come anywhere near close to exploring every map in BG, mostly sticking to the critical path and any sidequests I picked up along the way. I would have burned out.

They all should have an emergency spell that fires up instantly as soon as combat starts to cast some protection spell.

Some of the enemy wizards do cast arcane veil right at the start.

How many hours did it take you, Roguey?

A little over 50.

 

[Roguey]

Hard crowd control AoEs are king, and even the game's toughest enemies can be disabled with confuse/dominate/petrify/paralyze/prone/unconscious/stun effects (even after the introduction of immunities, enemies have far too many vulnerabilities).

Working as designed.

in this game, dragons are just immune to everything, because dragons

yeah that's dumb

Something else to keep in mind: according to Josh, he, Bobby Null, and a couple of other people at Obsidian were the only people there who could get anywhere playing on Hard and that was before he added all those immunities.

 

[vortex]

... Sawyerism held its own against Vinckeism ...

Sawyerism vs. Vinckeism -> I like these terms.

If we add Sawyerism vs. Vinckeism vs. Fargoism we get full circle of life.

How long did it take you to write a review? Were you writing your thoughts in the notebook along you were playing or did you write it all afterwards ?

 

[GordonHalfman]

Status effects being too weak has always been one of the stranger PoE criticisms. Some of the individual ones might seam weak by themselves, but then you have to consider how readily available they are, i.e. being attached to per encounter aoe abilities. In general with even a bit of debuffing aoe hard CC is really strong, especially on Hard or lower. The higher defenses on PotD make a bit more reasonable.

Although it's true there is an asymmetry in how spells are used. There's a bunch of spells I never saw enemies use even once, like Call to Slumber for example. And enemy wizards rarely seem higher level than the player. I always liked how in SoA enemy wizards had spells the player wouldn't even be able to cast normally, like Time Stop and such, at least before ToB anyway.

I also think the whole arcane veil being countered by guns thing was kind of backwards. While enemy wizards did use it it did nothing to stop me chunking them with a blunderbuss. (Not helped by them always seeming to wear robes, even though it's not D&D anymore and they can wear what they like.)