Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Abu Antar]

You might be imagining that the IE games had skills and non-automated character development.

I can understand not wanting to play Icewind Dale 2, but you should at least read up on its character system.

Why? Talking about games you have never played is da best!

 

[Sensuki]

Potentially some big calls(tm) coming, but for now I think I'm going to attack the skills system - currently it's not achieving the design goals for the game. It is possible to gimp your character skill-wise by not assigning points optimally. I don't think the current triangle system is working, and should be either altered or changed.

Have to try and be reasonable though because skill values have been assigned to dialogues, so the solution kinda has to be coarse enough that it doesn't fuck up the way skills are checked in dialogues currently.

If anyone is finding the opposite/disagrees please state why, if anyone has any suggestions, please make them

 

[imweasel]

if anyone has any suggestions, please make them

Delay the game and redesign the mechanics.

You're welcome.

 

[roshan]

Yeah, redo anything Sawyer came up with. This was pitched as a spiritual successor to the IE games, not Sawyer's thesis on gamism vs simulationism.

 

[Prime Junta]

Sensuki I don't as much disagree as think that there's not enough information to be able to say. There were a few skill checks in the beta, notably for athletics and lockpicking, but I didn't see many others. It all depends on how frequent and how important they are. If optimal skill distribution lets you succeed in a few more sidequests or find a few more alternative paths to do things, then the current system is fine. I haven't noticed much difference at all regardless of how I assigned them.

(You could argue that that's bad and if a system is in it ought have a bigger impact, but that's pretty much how it worked in all the IE games and NWN's except Storm of Zehir which really did make skills into an interesting gameplay element.)

I know Infinitron loves to point out that you can work around any bad system with tailored content, but skills really are all about tailored content. We haven't seen much of that, so how can you tell?

 

[FeelTheRads]

I know Infinitron loves to point out that you can work around any bad system

He does? But I thought the PoE system is godlike?

No, what Infinitron does is slowly going full retard.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki I don't as much disagree as think that there's not enough information to be able to say.

Discard the values for checks present in the beta atm - think about the points you spend while leveling up. It's very possible to gimp yourself of skill points by not assigning them properly so that the skill values will increase.

I will do some testing later tonight but I believe that you can really waste a shit load of points in the current system.

 

[Volourn]

, "but skills really are all about tailored content."

That's not quite true. Let's NWN1 OC which didn't have a lot of scripted/tailor use for its skills (Outside the dialogue skills) yet yous till got a lot of use of different skills. Concentrations, lore, discipline, animal empathy, etc., etc. all had defacto uses for them and BIO didn't have to do any 'special' extra scripting outside of making the skills work.

So, don't make stuff up.

 

[Prime Junta]

Sensuki Yeah, right, true, there is that but if you're so dim that you don't notice that you have to click several times before the number goes up, then frankly you deserve to gimp yourself. The UI could be improved though so you could see how many points you need at any given time to go up a notch, and how many points you have left to distribute.

Volourn Concentration and Discipline are handled in P:E with the Concentration check. Lore helped identify things which was obviously useful; P:E has a similar systemic use for it in identifying enemy defenses faster. You're right about Animal Empathy although why bother when you can just kill those little furry bags of XP?

So point conceded: I'll walk back "all about tailored content" to "mostly about tailored content." I still think SoZ had by far the best skill system of any of the IE-likes, and that was all about tailored content. Skill checks everywhere.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki Yeah, right, true, there is that but if you're so dim that you don't notice that you have to click several times before the number goes up, then frankly you deserve to gimp yourself.

No this is incorrect at the present state - you go into the level up screen and assign numbers to skills, it never tells you how many actual points in the skill you have at present, just how many "fake points" you put into the skill at level up. You can work it out if you note every time you go past a threshold, though. This is unintuitive for people who don't know how the system works like we do, and is also bad for new players.

One of the design goals of the game is that you shouldn't be able to make trap choices. Currently I believe the skill system triangular progression makes trap choices possible. If the skill system is to meet this overall design goal I believe it needs to be changed.

 

[Semper]

No this is incorrect at the present state - you go into the level up screen and assign numbers to skills, it never tells you how many actual points in the skill you have at present, just how many "fake points" you put into the skill at level up.

ain't the big fat number in circle to the utmost left the total skill level? the screen also tells you exactly how many skill points you have to invest to raise the level.
on second thought i guess you mean how many total points one invested to get to that level to get a grasp of the mechanics behind.

 

[Sensuki]

Totally didn't notice that, but yeah on the level up screen it says "Athletics +6" which is also a bit misleading as well because that's how D&D skills were shown.

That number four looks off centre as well. There's something currently a bit out with numbers in their fonts.

Point about being able to stuff up your skill point assignments still stands though, I think. Another reason being is that every full point in a skill gives you something in combat.

Survival makes potions etc last longer, Stealth decreases your stealth detection circle, Mechanics lets you set traps (apparently, I haven't used it yet) and find hidden objects. Lore and Athletics don't do too much (increases rate that you fill in Cyclopedia stats and alters when Fatigue kicks in).

Not assigning your points optimally screws you out of combat benefits and passing skill checks.

 

[Infinitron]

The "karma police" will make sure skill checks are evenly distributed in the final game, no? I agree with PrimeJunta that it appears that they're mostly about tailored content.

 

[Bonerbill]

Yeah, redo anything Sawyer came up with. This was pitched as a spiritual successor to the IE games, not Sawyer's thesis on gamism vs simulationism.

So you're saying this game isn't a spiritual successor to the IE games because it doesn't keep the broken unbalanced AD&D system?

 

[Semper]

Totally didn't notice that, but yeah on the level up screen it says "Athletics +6" which is also a bit misleading as well because that's how D&D skills were shown.

yup, it's a bit misleading that the points invested are shown and not the actual level of the skill. at the same time i guess that the majority of players only glance at the class unlocks, never to look at the skill summary.

Not assigning your points optimally screws you out of combat benefits and passing skill checks.

according to felipepepe there's absolutely no reason to spread skills

 

[Sensuki]

There is actually

 

[Athelas]

There will likely be a Steam achievement for filling out the bestiary for every creature, so Lore could be a must-have skill.

For Athletics, it makes sense to keep it at the same level for all characters in the party, to sync up the moment when they get Fatigued.

 

[Sensuki]

Athletics is good for non-combat because you can get injuries in scripted interactions

Ironic, isn't it.

 

[mastroego]

For Athletics, it makes sense to keep it at the same level for all characters in the party

How surprising.
And how replayble!
Mind you, I'm sure the game will do fine - initially at least- despite the decline.
It looks nice and BG2-like: people will buy it.

But truly intelligent Codex residents are supposed to be looking farther ahead with their Divination powers, and gauge the meaning even of seemingly insignificant little clues.

 

[Volourn]

"So you're saying this game isn't a spiritual successor to the IE games because it doesn't keep the broken unbalanced AD&D system?"

FUCK OFF.

 

[Roguey]

This thread still around? Aces.

I like how Obsidian felt it necessary to hire booth babes to promote this. Where'd the money come from to pay them? Was it Kickstarter funds, Paradox, or Feargus's own pocket?

 

[Grunker]

where is your sawyer now

 

[Athelas]

Those are probably just MCA groupies.

 

[Duraframe300]

I like how Obsidian felt it necessary to hire booth babes to promote this. Where'd the money come from to pay them? Was it Kickstarter funds, Paradox, or Feargus's own pocket?

Theres now all kinds of Obsidian partys thanks to Shane Defreest.

Seriously though, I know the girl on the left is a good friend of the folks at Obsidian. I think she was the one that drew dicks on MCA's monitor.

 

[Infinitron]

This thread still around? Aces.

Also, post source.

I think she was the one that drew dicks on MCA's monitor.