Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[LarsWestergren]

Is Roguey a hermaphrodite? Why some people use "he" and others "she" when referring to ...

Does it matter?

 

[Grunker]

In the IE games too, nobody was thinking about their attributes one hour after starting the game

What are you smoking Infinitron?

Been a long time since I disagreed so strongly with you. Attributes remained one of the defining assets of all non-caster characters because there were so few other options for customization in the AD&D games. The tomes were just about the coolest loot you could find since they bumped something otherwise static and for non-casters something that could provide immense boni like extra damage (unobtainable through other means).

Since we're both familiar with tabletop rules systems, a good comparison here might be between D&D 4e (which I haven't read, making it one of the few) and RIFTS. RIFTS is an awful mess of a system, incredibly unbalanced, and Kevin Siembieda is an industry pariah due to being a bizarre, egotistical shithead... but RIFTS is great fun to play. (It also helps that RIFTS setting materials are original, creative, and just plain cool.) RIFTS is perhaps too messy and unbalanced for most people's tastes, but it's a suitable poster child for its end of the spectrum.

Agreed (another example of "unbalanced-on-purpose-but-still-fun" would be Blood Bowl, IMO). I mean, I like Sawyer (when he's not talking about P&P at least). You can make a really fun game with the design principles Sawyer had of "everything should be useful." He's totally right in pointing out how many superflous assets can be generated during your work process if you don't keep tabs on making sure everything is at least worthy of the player's note. I just think using uniformity to solve that problem was a bad move.

However, I'm only speaking about attributes, it does seem like there's decent variety in combat options

 

[LarsWestergren]

Got home from work at 21.30 yesterday, but fired it up for the first time for half an hour at least. Doubt I have anything new to bring to the table, but here goes:
So very pretty. My portrait is in, get a big kick from seeing it in people's screenshot. I like the music. Tiny fiddly UI, needs fix asap. Love the attribute checks in dialogue. Got teamwiped in first battle on "hard", so I'm probably an idiot. Characters getting stuck and not autoattacking didn't help and was very frustrating, so like others I'll probably wait on evaluating the combat parts of the game further.

I thought I didn't have any strong opinion on TB vs RTwP ("just pause often if it is a difficult fight, same thing"), but after playing lots of turn based recently in other Kickstarted games, I have to say this isn't the same thing. Here it's a big cluster where I have troubles seeing what happens and why, and I don't get the nailbiting tension I get in turnbased when selecting positioning or individual actions at a critical junction.

Even if they don't get the combat to be totally satisfying, I still think this has the potential to be a really fantastic game.

 

[Mystary!]

your fighter is my fighter

Isn't that what attributes are for? If high intellect barbarian works then what about a high intellect fighter? Or is the difference negligible? Atleast they would get different dialogue options...

 

[Harold]

The difference attributes make in combat is negligible because baby-gloves

 

[Grunker]

your fighter is my fighter

Isn't that what attributes are for? If high intellect barbarian works then what about a high intellect fighter? Or is the difference negligible? Atleast they would get different dialogue options...

That's the whole point. Attributes are not that impactful really from what I've seen, and I think Sensuki echoes this. There is a difference between 8 and 18, but it's not something that makes a huge impact like the difference between 8 and 18 would with 3.5 stats.

 

[Infinitron]

What are you smoking Infinitron?

Been a long time since I disagreed so strongly with you. Attributes remained one of the defining assets of all non-caster characters because there were so few other options for customization in the AD&D games. The tomes were just about the coolest loot you could find since they bumped something otherwise static and for non-casters something that could provide immense boni like extra damage (unobtainable through other means).

I maintain that stats were fairly unimportant to the actual Infinity Engine Experience post-chargen. Cross-posting:

What part of "make us a new game like Baldur's Gate" sounded like "'streamline' BG with your pet design ideas" to him?

I guess he didn't think the stats were that important to the Baldur's Gate experience. They are, after all, just something you set at chargen and then basically forget about it for the rest of the game. They don't even increase on level up occasionally like in 3rd Edition.

I guess he didn't think the stats were that important to the Baldur's Gate experience. They are, after all, just something you set at chargen and then forget about it for the rest of the game.

So there were no stat affecting items or potions in the game? So stats didn't influence how your character would perform?

Of course they did, but it's not like, say, Fallout, where maintaining your character sheet by spending skill points was a constant occupation. You picked a class, rolled up some stats, and then did what your class was supposed to do - melee things if you were a fighter, cast spells if you were a mage, etc. You didn't really need to think about stats much after that, except maybe for selecting your party members from the NPCs in the world if you were powergaming.

I guess he didn't think the stats were that important to the Baldur's Gate experience. They are, after all, just something you set at chargen and then basically forget about it for the rest of the game. They don't even increase on level up occasionally like in 3rd Edition.

As a consequence of it being a low level D&D adventure, stats (well some of them atleast) were pretty damn important in first BG, 18 DEX (+4 to armor class) was a life saver in many situations regardless of the class, 18/** STR and 18 CON were very important for a fighter and greatly increased his chance of survival etc.

It's in the sequel that stats took a backseat because of a much high level cap and an abundance of stat increasing items (heck you could find/buy an 18 CHA ring and 19 STR belt in the first few hours of the game).

Sure, I'm not saying they didn't have an effect, but they weren't something you really had to fuck around with regularly, so the exact details of how they affected your character weren't that important to the Infinity Engine Gameplay Experience(tm).

Athelas agrees with me:

You're vastly overstating the effect stats had in the IE games. Thac0, number of attacks per round, weapon proficiencies and spell arsenals were the most important things and they were all tied to class and level. Stats were good for fixed armor class bonuses and minor additional accuracy with ranged weapons (dex) and melee damage and accuracy bonuses (str) that paled in comparison to the boosts you got from equipment and became even less significant as you gained more levels. And maybe a few bonus spell slots. And pointing out that there was equipment and potions that boosted stats is an argument AGAINST the significance of assigning stats at character creation.

 

[Grunker]

I'm not sure how you conclude that lack of management is the same as low impact. That's some dark sorcery you need to make that true, bro.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not sure how you conclude that lack of management is the same as low impact.

I'm saying three things:

1) You're overstating the actual mechanical impact of attributes in the Infinity Engine games. Read Athelas' post.

2) Regardless, the fact that you didn't need to manage them or think about them means that they can safely be downgraded in importance because they're not fundamental to the gameplay experience.

3) Since D&D had "primary stats" and "dump stats", the fact that attributes could potentially have a deep mechanical impact didn't matter so much anyway, because people always went for the same builds.

 

[Shadenuat]

Fixing gaps in party's stats was very important part of party management in BG at least. Checking on Keldorn's terrible AC, Aerie's atrocious CON, in BG1 you had to babysit Khalid with potions... tomes, items like gloves of Dex, belts and gloves of STR, belt of CON for Aerie/Viki/Haerdalis, not running out of INT when fighting mind flayers... or just running out of STR to carry loot after you got str-drained.
Stats were always there, methinks.

 

[Grunker]

1) Athelas - and you - both fail to mention damage and hit points, two crucial system assets that are basically only manipulateable by the player through attribute spread. Athelas' talk about "minor damage bonus" is factually wrong.

2) Again, you're confusing "do not demand management" with "low impact" and that's such an obvious fallacy I'm amazed you can't see it. What if one point of Strength bestowed you +1000 damage? Would you still call it "not fundamental to the gameplay experience" because they didn't require management? The reverse is true - attributes are uneditable and static but hugely important. They're the root of your character, the fundamental basis of what makes him different from all the other fighters. They are core to the gameplay experience precisely because they're the blueprints and not the editable construction built upon it.

3) I agree completely. My entire point is that Sawyer opted to fix this issue (laudable) but fixed it by removing their significance altogether (faulty).

Finally, you're completely ignoring the fact that stat management was a core tenet of the IE-games item design. You had a range of weapons that couldn't be used without certain stats, and a range of items that manipulated your stats in the most horrifically designed ways (like "setting" a stat to something). Very impactful and very important to manage.

 

[Infinitron]

3) I agree completely. My entire point is that Sawyer opted to fix this issue (laudable) but fixed it by removing their significance altogether (faulty).

I don't consider that faulty because I think it's a legitimate design choice. Not every system needs to be attributes-centric. We've known - or at least I've known - that this game was going to downgrade the importance of atttributes for a looong time. Attributes were the last element of the system to be designed, and essentially added as an "overlay" on top of a more-or-less fully functional statless system (I'll find the quotes later).

IMO, a critique of Pillars of Eternity should take that design philosophy into account and judge it on its own terms.

 

[Grunker]

3) I agree completely. My entire point is that Sawyer opted to fix this issue (laudable) but fixed it by removing their significance altogether (faulty).

I don't consider that faulty because I think it's a legitimate design choice.

[...]

IMO, a critique of Pillars of Eternity should take that design philosophy into account and judge it on its own terms.

You know I agree with you in principle (see: dogs and cats), but PoE's system does not have a reason to include stats at all in the current design. You can have low impact system assets like incidental bonuses, but then you need to make those part of a wide customization array like picking traits in Pathfinder - small and insignifcant additions to your character that help with characterization. PoE's attributes are not that, they're the only way to directly manipulate a wide range of factors and they play the central role in character generation customization.

Anything chosen to be included should matter. As it is, PoE attributes matter too little to be interesting to generate.

DISCLAIMER: We haven't seen the content. It might save you, if stat checks are so abundant that stats become default dialogue and text-adventure definers. However, this still doesn't make them exempt from the criticism of "why are they a combat-attributing system factor at all then".

 

[Athelas]

1) Athelas - and you - both fail to mention damage and hit points, two crucial system assets that are basically only manipulateable by the player through attribute spread.

You're right, but even the +HP boost you got from CON past a certain threshold was dependent on class.

Athelas' talk about "minor damage bonus" is factually wrong.

Compared to more thac0 and more attacks per round (from weapon proficiency and from gaining certain levels), which were dependent on your class, it is somewhat minor. Attacking twice is better than doing a few more points of damage. And those few more points of damage become more significant when you can attack twice.

 

[Grunker]

You're right, but even the +HP boost you got from CON past a certain threshold was dependent on class.

I repeatedly stated that attribute importance was mainly bound to "non-caster classes" i.e. those that benefit from high CON.

Compared to extra attacks per round from weapon proficiency and at certain levels, which was dependent on your class, it is somewhat minor.

Not so, bro. In fact, stats matter even more in BG2 because the damage bonus from strength - which is one of the only available ways to gain damage boni - scales with additional ways to apply it (i.e. extra attacks). That's one of the reasons that Gaunts of Weapon Expertise is one of the best endgame items. Beyond strength and profeciency they are one of the only existing ways to increase non-caster damage output in the entire game.

 

[Harold]

...

B-but there need to be six stats because Baldur's Gate had six stats. And the min for a stat is 3 and the max is 18 (sans racial/culture bonuses) just like in Baldur's Gate. The attribute system is totally in the spirit of the IE games you guys.

 

[Athelas]

I repeatedly stated that attribute importance was mainly bound to "non-caster classes" i.e. those that benefit from high CON.

My bad. Although my original quote was taken from a discussion about usefulness of all stats for all classes.

Not so, bro. In fact, stats matter even more in BG2 because the damage bonus from strength - which is one of the only available ways to gain damage boni - scales with additional ways to apply it (i.e. extra attacks). That's one of the reasons that Gaunts of Weapon Expertise is one of the best endgame items. Beyond strength and profeciency they are one of the only existing ways to increase non-caster damage output in the entire game.

I think we agree (I edited my post right before you replied).

 

[Infinitron]

You know I agree with you in principle (see: dogs and cats), but PoE's system does not have a reason to include stats at all in the current design. You can have low impact system assets like incidental bonuses, but then you need to make those part of a wide customization array like picking traits in Pathfinder - small and insignifcant additions to your character that help with characterization. PoE's attributes are not that, they're the only way to directly manipulate a wide range of factors and they play the central role in character generation customization.

Well, like I said in my original quote, the stats could still end up having a decisive impact in the most high-stakes combats, where even a small advantage can be the difference between life and death.

Furthermore, if there are spells and items within the game that increase those supposedly low-impact stats enough, they could end up having a significant impact nonetheless. For example, the difference between an 18 Might Fighter and 10 Might Fighter out of chargen might not be huge, but what happens if you find a potion that temporarily increases his might by say, 20 or 30 points? That would definitely make a difference.

 

[Athelas]

According to someone at Something Awful, at maxed INT the AoE range of your spells becomes so huge that they unavoidably damage your own wizard, so stats definitely matter.

 

[Harold]

what happens if you find a potion that temporarily increases his might by say, 20 or 30 points? .

now you're just being silly

 

[Grunker]

For example, the difference between an 18 Might Fighter and 10 Might Fighter out of chargen might not be huge, but what happens if you find a potion that temporarily increases his might by say, 20 or 30 points? That would definitely make a difference.

Eh, you realize you're basically arguing my case for me here, right?

The insignificance between 10 and 18 is chiseled into stone when you realize how small the difference would be between 38 and 48. In other words, if such a potion exists, it shows just how little your choices at character generation matter.

According to someone at Something Awful, at maxed INT the AoE range of your spells becomes so huge that they unavoidably damage your own wizard, so stats definitely matter.

lol, awesome

 

[Infinitron]

Eh, you realize you're basically arguing my case for me here, right?

What case? I agree with you that the stats in chargen have less of an impact - I just don't care.

I think I've explained before that generally speaking I'm unsatisfied with how the concept of "main attribute scores" has been implemented in RPGs historically, so I'm not sorry to see them downgraded. Shame about people's expectations, though.

 

[MicoSelva]

For example, the difference between an 18 Might Fighter and 10 Might Fighter out of chargen might not be huge, but what happens if you find a potion that temporarily increases his might by say, 20 or 30 points? That would definitely make a difference.

If itemization or spell will affect stats in that scale, then the characters' base stats will matter even less than they do now.

At the moment, they could be almost removed from the game altogether, Skyrim-style.

Looking at the stat distribution in the screenshot Sensuki posted earlier, it seems that the most significant change achieved compared to IE games is that most classes will have the same dump stats (Perception and Resolve), unless you make some kind of interrupt-specialized wizard killer build, which will benefit from high Perception, or you focus on one-target insta-damage dealing abilities (and can dump Intelligence too).

 

[Infinitron]

Looking at the stat distribution in the screenshot Sensuki posted earlier, it seems that the most significant change achieved compared to IE games is that most classes will have the same dump stats (Perception and Resolve), unless you make some kind of interrupt-specialized wizard killer build, which will benefit from high Perception, or you focus on one-target insta-damage dealing abilities (and can dump Intelligence too).

Those will be altered.

At the moment, they could be almost removed from the game altogether, Skyrim-style.

Maybe so. On Something Awful, some people asked Sawyer why he wasn't doing this. His answer was basically "because grognards".

 

[Grunker]

I think I've explained before that generally speaking I'm unsatisfied with how the concept of "main attribute scores" has been implemented in RPGs historically, so I'm not sorry to see them downgraded. Shame about people's expectations, though.

If you didn't want to actually discuss this, you could have just said so. You tried to move out with an "let's discuss PoE on PoE's presmises." Well, I did. Then you countered with "but stats might be influential if there's a potion." Then I rebutted that. Now you're back at "well so what if they're insignificant." That's a circular argument.