Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Hormalakh]

Instead he wants to challenge players moment to moment in combat so you have to adjust what you're doing in response to things that are happening.

First of all, what he wants and what he's delivering are two different things. Combat is not a moment-to-moment array of AWSUM tactical decisions in PoE. In fact, it's mostly based on initiating actions.

Secondly, having a challenging combat encounter can play out well when you have to take into account monster invuls. Your example was a weak one. Better examples I've heard today include asking a axe-wielding dwarf play with a hammer that they're not usually good with, saving weapons and using them even when players have little to no profiency. These continue to bring new challenges to players because it's like the developers are saying "yeah you can beat these monsters, but how would you fare if you couldn't use piercing weapons? How about when they're a swarm? etc etc."

ultimately, I'm not saying PoE fails to deliver in creature variety. What I'm saying is that Sensuki is right: immunities and the horrified nooblets who hated them was overplayed.

 

[Sensuki]

You can still abuse disengagement attacks pretty well. It's much less effective with a group of Fighters than it was before due to the engagement range nerf, but if you pull enemies at the right angle, four Barbarians is still very strong, can outright kill 1-2+ enemies just like before.

The AI targeting changes hasn't seem to have done much, enemies still all chase the ranged character I use to lure them into the trap and only change targets once they are engaged.

 

[tuluse]

I didn't say he succeeded

 

[Sensuki]

So when are you going to dive into this again tuluse?

 

[Sensuki]

I've been tweaking a lot of combat values over the past few days and damage output has mellowed out overall, especially for enemies. That said, Shielding Touch (a Talent you can take for the Shieldbearers of St. Elcga) adds a Deflection bonus with the HoT from Lay on Hands.

 

[tuluse]

So when are you going to dive into this again tuluse?

I don't know. I feel like my time is better spent with Serpent in the Staglands. Plenty of other people are giving good feedback for PoE.

 

[Sensuki]

That's a good point. I said I was going to do a stint in SitS but haven't gotten around to it yet. Seems like I find a new bug in PE every 5 minutes or something lol.

 

[agris]

I'm gorging on neo scavenger right now but has the new update brought increased keyboard functionality? I skimmed the hotkey argument 8 pages back but couldn't get a definitive impression.

Most importantly, does PG-UP/DN change the combat log size yet?

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah but you can't unassign hotkeys anymore and I don't think they persist over save games

 

[Sensuki]

Here's a teaser

 

[Kem0sabe]

The music...

 

[Sensuki]

Anathema

 

[Athelas]

If the purpose of that video was to draw attention to your questionable music tastes, you certainly succeeded.

The middle block should be tucked away to the side, since it consists of buttons you will use only infrequently.

 

[Sensuki]

You can freely move it wherever you like.

When the mod is actually finished, I will do a proper demonstration video.

 

[Infinitron]

Prime Junta asks: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/107416264941/hi-josh-ive-been-playing-a-lot-of-bb392-and

Hi, Josh -- I've been playing a lot of BB392 and IWD back to back. The beta's coming along great and I'm having a lot of fun with it. However, in IWD, a standard tactic is to rush to an enemy caster with a fighter, gank him, then rush out before you get clobbered. I can't think of a way to do this in P:E. Rogue's Escape and barb's Wild Sprint are 1/encounter, each of which is half the solution. Could we have talents/abilities/spells which support this tactic?

There are a few 1/encounters that I’ve been shifting to 2/encounter. Wild Sprint could be one of them, but barbarians aren’t designed to escape the fray as much as define where the fray is. Rogues need to watch for an opening (or make their own opening using Stealth before combat starts) and use Escape, Shadowing Beyond, or Coordinated Positioning to get out of trouble. If the rogue wants to be at the vanguard and dart behind the first wave of enemies, they need someone to provide coverage for them. Fighters are ideal for providing interference (with Defender, among other reasons), but paladins, chanters, monks, and barbarians can all handle it just fine.

Monks are the most mobility-oriented melee characters. Long Stride makes them inherently faster and they have a variety of CC abilities that can help them clear a path or briefly disable enemies. Rooting Pain (now available at lower levels) is ideal for providing them with an escape window, and Force of Anguish works well, too.

If you want support abilities to help people get in and get out, there are a couple of options. A paladin’s Zealous Charge provides a movement boost and a hefty bonus to defend against Disengagement, but characters need to be close to the paladin to take advantage of it. The chanter phrase “The Fox from the Farmer…” has a much larger area of effect, but its bonuses aren’t as great. Talent-wise, both Fast Runner and Graceful Retreat can be very useful if your intention is to rush in and dart out. Potions of Fleet Feet are great, but consumable, and yes, since a lot of people wonder, there are Boots of Speed.

I will look at some of the priest and druid spells. I’m sure there are a couple of support spells that could have a movement and Disengagement Defense bonus added.

 

[Sensuki]

Prime Junta asks:

That sounds like "this is what you could theoretically do" rather than what's actually practical to do. Sounds like a hell of a lot of wasted character advancement choices and ability use that are a waste of time. You don't need to be able to rush to the back to get at the Wizard in PE either, you just attack them with ranged weapons / spells as they have no protection against them and their AI casting routines are nowhere near good enough to be considered a omg must take down now threat. They're actually an easy target. The Wizards I've faced are pretty much a free win, they go down so easily.

but barbarians aren’t designed to escape the fray as much as define where the fray is.

Lol? That's not true. It might be conceptually true but you absolutely do not want to initiate combat with a Barbarian. That's really bad advice that will get you KO'd. Barbarians have terrible Deflection and the character that initiates combat often gets targeted by all of the melee enemies at the very minimum. Yes .. hit me for 40 damage everyone.

More Paladin Talents coming

All orders have access to two Talents, usually affecting Flames of Devotion, Lay on Hands, or Liberating Exhortation.

The Black Path (Bleak Walkers) - When the paladin defeats an opponent, nearby enemies are Frightened
Remember Rakhan Field (Bleak Walkers) - The paladin's Flames of Devotion does additional Corrode damage.
Inspiring Liberation (Darcozzi Paladini) - Whenever the paladin uses Liberating Exhortation on an ally, the ally gains an Accuracy bonus.
Fires of Darcozzi Palace (Darcozzi Paladini) - Whenever the paladin uses Flames of Devotion, he or she gains a weak form of Flame Shield.
Enduring Flames (Goldpact Knights) - The paladin's Flames of Devotion leave behind a Burn DoT
Bond of Duty (Goldpact Knights) - Whenever the paladin uses Liberating Exhortation on an ally, the ally gains a large defensive bonus against Charmed, Confused, and Dominated.
Strange Mercy (Kind Wayfarers) - When the paladin defeats an opponent, nearby allies gain Endurance
The Sword and the Shepherd (Kind Wayfarers) - The paladin's Flames of Devotion heals Endurance in nearby allies
Shielding Flames (Shieldbearers of St. Elcga) - The paladin's Flames of Devotion grants a temporary Deflection bonus to nearby allies
Shielding Touch (Shieldbearers of St. Elcga) - Whenever the paladin uses Liberating Exhortation on an ally, the ally gains an Accuracy Bonus.

 

[Zed]

Strange Mercy (Kind Wayfarers) - When the paladin defeats an opponent, nearby allies gain Endurance
The Sword and the Shepherd (Kind Wayfarers) - The paladin's Flames of Devotion heals Endurance in nearby allies

what's endurance?

 

[Sensuki]

Stamina, it was renamed.

 

[Infinitron]

That sounds like "this is what you could theoretically do" rather than what's actually practical to do. Sounds like a hell of a lot of wasted character advancement choices and ability use that are a waste of time. You don't need to be able to rush to the back to get at the Wizard in PE either, you just attack them with ranged weapons / spells as they have no protection against them and their AI casting routines are nowhere near good enough to be considered a omg must take down now threat. They're actually an easy target. The Wizards I've faced are pretty much a free win, they go down so easily.

As are low-level wizards in AD&D!

But he didn't ask just about wizards, but about casters in general, which includes other classes, and perhaps certain spellcasting creatures who are buffer than your average standard wizard NPC.

Besides, I just read on SA that you like bumrushing dudes in melee.

 

[Sensuki]

As are low-level wizards in AD&D!

Absolutely not "low level" enemy wizards in the Infinity Engine games. Not if you want to die from spells in the second/third round of combat. Even in IWD1 and 2 where Mages don't destroy your PC with magic missiles, they are always a priority target at the beginning of combat, along with "Master Archer" type enemies.

PJ is asking about stuff that's in the beta. There are a few adventurer parties that have a Wizard and a Priest. There are Druid groups in Stormwall Gorge. Priests cast short range spells, they are pretty much right up there with the melee units. In v392 Priests do actually cast a few damaging spells on the party, but for the most part they just cast buffs and debuffs and can be left until last, because they probably do the least DPS of their group.

In open maps, you can pull enemies to a more advantageous position. It might be a bigger deal in maps with confined spaces or in cases where combat is initiated through dialogue, and the party is in a bad position. Regardless - spending character advancement points and blowing actions in combat that do nothing to damage enemies, just so you can have the possibility of bursting through the fray is really sub-optimal. Hence, the doggedness to remove Melee Engagement.

I did notice that after I complained quite heavily about Wild Sprint giving you a Deflection penalty they have actually smartened up and made it actually give you a bonus against disengagement attacks instead. Still, the more things they do that for, the more things I have to mod out

 

[Zed]

As are low-level wizards in AD&D!

mage outside friendly arms, one of the hardest encounters in baldur's gate

 

[Starwars]

 

[Infinitron]

mage outside friendly arms, one of the hardest encounters in baldur's gate

Even so, you'll still turn him into a pincushion with a few archers. Part of what can make that particular encounter hard is that you haven't got shit on you at that point. And generally level 1 in AD&D exists in its own universe of difficulty apart from the others.

Of course archers were OP in BG1 in general, this is pretty well known

 

[Sensuki]

No, the encounter becomes difficult if he successfully casts Mirror Image. If he does, he's guaranteed to get a few spells off. If you cancel his Mirror Image, he's dead.

 

[Hormalakh]

again,the problem with many of these "escape" or free movement abilities are exactly what sensuki said: they're only theoretical. For example, the escape on the thief has an incredibly short range - if there is more than one enemy closing in on your rogue, you're hosed because the rogue can't escape. Add to that the ridiculous animation time on it before it goes off and it's just a really poorly thought out ability.

Every class needs at least one disengagement ability. Many need maneuverability abilities/talents and throw in a few crowd control abilities for good measure. 1/encounter doesn't do it either because it's incredibly rare to have single-member boss fights. Being able to move around, at least with the cost of an ability, should be viable. Right now, it's not.