Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Seari]

That's why I'll wait a couple of months for modders to fix the game before playing it. I have my doubts that they'll be able to or even bother to since the list of things that need changing is too damn long.

 

[Sensuki]

IE mod fixes these

Why does it take 3 seconds before a body becomes lootable? And why the fugly MMORPG loot glow?
Why can't I use TAB+mouseover to make name tags/tooltips on enemies appear in combat?

 

[GordonHalfman]

Wtf is hard to understand about +5 accuracy lol

 

[Zed]

Wtf is hard to understand about +5 accuracy lol

What difference does 5 make? A big difference? A small difference?
What is the 5 in a scale of? Min val 0, Max val 100?

It's just gamey, not meta-gamey.

It's hard to tell the effectiveness of many talents and character development choices. I'd say that's pretty meta-gamey.
You probably won't make as many choices off the bat when playing the real campaign compared to the backer beta (because in the backer beta you start at a higher level), but I can still see this being the case as every class must pick a starting active ability.

 

[Surf Solar]

I think the purpose of an 'unfinished' Solid UI is to gather feedback. So if you have some - go over to the Obs boards and post it.

Kaz admitted that it looks way too plain (and it does), but what other functionality were you expecting ?

Thing is, when I or someone other posts stuff like 'make it L shaped and put stuff on the sides' they wont do it anyway and that the current solid one looks like shit he already knows. I am honestly questioning myself why they even bother.

 

[Shadenuat]

Won't play gaem before Baldur's Gate UI mod comes out.

 

[Sensuki]

It's hard to tell the effectiveness of many talents and character development choices.

This is something that is very true about this game.

 

[GordonHalfman]

What difference does 5 make? A big difference? A small difference?
What is the 5 in a scale of? Min val 0, Max val 100?

This isn't hidden information, there are in game info boxes and "Cyclopedia" entries that explain accuracy and attack resolution, and your accuracy rolls are available from the combat log tooltips as well.

 

[Infinitron]

To be honest, when Josh said this game would have systems that were easier to understand than Baldur's Gate, that was a bit misleading, because at least as far as initial character creation and development go, it's harder to be more brain-dead than AD&D. Sure, THAC0 is weird and everything, but it's not a choice you actually have to make.

What PoE really is, or should be, is easier to understand compared to other 3E-type systems with lots of feats, skills and other choices.

 

[tuluse]

To be honest, when Josh said this game would have systems that were easier to understand than Baldur's Gate, that was a bit misleading, because at least as far as initial character creation and development go, it's harder to be more brain-dead than AD&D. Sure, THAC0 is weird and everything but it's not a choice you actually have to make.

What it really is, is easier to understand compared to a 3E-type system with lots of feats, skills and other choices.

Making a character is pretty easy in AD&D, but he meant resolution systems. Physical attacks using one set of mechanics, while magic uses another. A lot of people have trouble understanding the AD&D magic system. Like the Black Isle beta tester (who roguey claims was Brian Mitsoda) who didn't think to pre-buff.

 

[Infinitron]

To be honest, when Josh said this game would have systems that were easier to understand than Baldur's Gate, that was a bit misleading, because at least as far as initial character creation and development go, it's harder to be more brain-dead than AD&D. Sure, THAC0 is weird and everything but it's not a choice you actually have to make.

What it really is, is easier to understand compared to a 3E-type system with lots of feats, skills and other choices.

Making a character is pretty easy in AD&D, but he meant resolution systems. Physical attacks using one set of mechanics, while magic uses another. A lot of people have trouble understanding the AD&D magic system. Like the Black Isle beta tester (who roguey claims was Brian Mitsoda) who didn't think to pre-buff.

I know what he was talking about. But the people like Zed here who enjoy being able to choose a cleric and instantly know what sort of weapon he's going to use, what sort of armor he's going to wear, pretty much exactly what sort of character he's going to be - they're not going to care. They're looking at a bunch of feats and skills and equipment options and asking themselves "what is this?!".

What I'm saying is, this game could conceivably face a backlash from IE fans who skipped over the NWNs and other RPGs with similar systems.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't think that's the problem Zed is referring to (although it might be). The problem is that to work out how effective something is, it requires knowing the math/formula. Anything here that isn't an integer has the potential to be misleading and NONE of the formulas are explained in game.

There's also a lot of issues where abilities and talents are misleading and don't display the information about what they do correctly.

Weapon Focus still doesn't tell you how much Accuracy it gives (it's now +6).

 

[hiver]

What took them so long to do this anyway? It's not hard.

Jesus christ, just something similar to this that put together in 30 minutes

/ snipped /

Of course item placement and size needs to be altered. But what else is so "wrong" about it, can someone enlighten me?

It covers too much screen space for absolutely nothing and creates the sense of looking at the world through some window thus increasing a sense of looking through some box like its a bloody FPS.

Plus it forces the player to move the pointer all over the screen.

Also, use spell checker ffs. I had to correct hose two mistakes you did.



- edited out a colloquial dirty word so surf wouldnt cry.

 

[Zed]

I don't think that's the problem Zed is referring to (although it might be). The problem is that to work out how effective something is, it requires knowing the math/formula. Anything here that isn't an integer has the potential to be misleading and NONE of the formulas are explained in game.

There's also a lot of issues where abilities and talents are misleading and don't display the information about what they do correctly.

Weapon Focus still doesn't tell you how much Accuracy it gives (it's now +6).

To be honest, when Josh said this game would have systems that were easier to understand than Baldur's Gate, that was a bit misleading, because at least as far as initial character creation and development go, it's harder to be more brain-dead than AD&D. Sure, THAC0 is weird and everything but it's not a choice you actually have to make.

What it really is, is easier to understand compared to a 3E-type system with lots of feats, skills and other choices.

Making a character is pretty easy in AD&D, but he meant resolution systems. Physical attacks using one set of mechanics, while magic uses another. A lot of people have trouble understanding the AD&D magic system. Like the Black Isle beta tester (who roguey claims was Brian Mitsoda) who didn't think to pre-buff.

I know what he was talking about. But the people like Zed here who enjoy being able to choose a cleric and instantly know what sort of weapon he's going to use, what sort of armor he's going to wear, pretty much exactly what sort of character he's going to be - they're not going to care. They're looking at a bunch of feats and skills and equipment options and asking themselves "what is this?!".

What I'm saying is, this game could conceivably face a backlash from IE fans who skipped over the NWNs and other RPGs with similar systems.

I was actually referring to what Sensuki writes about, but I don't think Infinitron is wrong either. I enjoy strong archetypes. Like if I choose a Rogue in IE games, I know it's gonna be a stabby mofo who detects traps for a living, whereas in PoE all classes seem to be bastardized. Muscle-wizards and all that.

Normally, I wouldn't mind bastardizations and tweaks to the formula. I'm not a "grog" in that sense. But this is supposed to be a spiritual successor to a series of games that did things in particular way. This game deviates from them where it's completely unnecessary.

What difference does 5 make? A big difference? A small difference?
What is the 5 in a scale of? Min val 0, Max val 100?

This isn't hidden information, there are in game info boxes and "Cyclopedia" entries that explain accuracy and attack resolution, and your accuracy rolls are available from the combat log tooltips as well.

I don't know anything about a cyclopedia but I know that they don't have tooltips and that there isn't enough info when making the choices, i.e. leveling up. EDIT: and more importantly, when starting your character.

 

[Sensuki]

Dexterity affects action speed now.

Well, that took a while.

It's still not working properly. Dexterity is actually slowing recovery time with weapons

 

[Ninjerk]

But this is supposed to be a spiritual successor to a series of games that did things in particular way. This game deviates from them where it's completely unnecessary.

This is like that thing people shitpost about.

 

[Grunker]

Normally, I wouldn't mind bastardizations and tweaks to the formula. I'm not a "grog" in that sense. But this is supposed to be a spiritual successor to a series of games that did things in particular way. This game deviates from them where it's completely unnecessary.

It is an absolute minority of players who want the static, choiceless level up system from AD&D and the IE-games. Making no choices when you level up is considered fun only by the smallest crowd of set-in-their-way-fans. While this is 100% OK of course, I think making character development less interesting is a prime example of paying misunderstood homage to the older games.

We expect Obsidian to take everything that worked from the IE games and re-implement it. While there are certainly points in the game where Obs can be criticized for not doing this (see the discussion on engagement, attributes and UI on the last couple of pages), character development certainly isn't one of them. I think if you want to name a spot where they really dropped the ball, it's multiclassing.

That's also where your "strong archetype" falls apart a little. The dual/multiclassing of the old IE games remains one of the sole very fun customization options in those games, and those broke completely with the stock and static classes the game otherwise presented.

Also note that one of the prime criticisms of the Enhanced Editions was that they did not take the opportunity to update the old IE-games to improved systems with more interesting character customization.

 

[Grunker]

In other words: yes, the game deviates in a couple of spots where it's completely unnecessary, but the character development is the example of a necessary change.

 

[Infinitron]

Also note that one of the prime criticisms of the Enhanced Editions was that they did not take the opportunity to update the old IE-games to improved systems with more interesting character customization.

I am not sure if this is true

 

[Grunker]

Also note that one of the prime criticisms of the Enhanced Editions was that they did not take the opportunity to update the old IE-games to improved systems with more interesting character customization.

I am not sure if this is true

After the announcement there was strong hopes for this in the Codex thread, among the large following on FB and among the modders. I consider that prime.

 

[hiver]

Most of you are mistaking in seeing this as, or wanting to see this as an improvement over BG2.
What this actually looks like the most is improved IceWind Dale.

Better deeper story and dialogues and text adventures and more serious, more elaborate setting - plus combat that is clearly based on IWDs general combat scope. Not BG2.

The distinction is important when judging the combat part.


-
sorry

sounded worse then i meant it

 

[Shadenuat]

The main criticism on Enhanced Editions was that they even exist.

As for character customization & leveling up, if choices would turn out mostly cosmetic like the mentioned +5 to hit, that wouldn't be much of an improvement would it. And when I played first beta it was a lot like that. Give fighter more abilities that he already has per level. I guess it's one way of starting a character build, but it's not the most exciting one.

 

[Rake]

In other words: yes, the game deviates in a couple of spots where it's completely unnecessary, but the character development is the example of a necessary change.

While i agree in prinsiple, they way it was done is terrible. From what i have seen in PoE so far, i just won't care about CC. Even the itemisation and the buffs with the whole +% -%, + x attribute etc. is utterly boring to me.
Maybe i'm not in Josh's target audience (i'm propably not) but i can see myself leaving all attributes at 10, choose only passive talents, turn the difficulty to easy and just ignore the whole CC aspect of the game.
Even the automatic CC of IE made me care more. At least i paid attention to my spellbooks and my items

 

[Grunker]

In other words: yes, the game deviates in a couple of spots where it's completely unnecessary, but the character development is the example of a necessary change.

While i agree in prinsiple, they way it was done is terrible. From what i have seen in PoE so far, i just won't care about CC. Even the itemisation and the buffs with the whole +% -%, + x attribute etc. is utterly boring to me.
Maybe i'm not in Josh's target audience (i'm propably not) but i can see myself leaving all attributes at 10, choose only passive talents, turn the difficulty to easy and just ignore the whole CC aspect of the game.
Even the automatic CC of IE made me care more. At least i paid attention to my spellbooks and my items

I'm not sure I understand this honestly. Even if you dislike the character system of PoE (I haven't seen near enough of the feats to decide), it's still infinitely more interesting than just clicking on a level-up button.

 

[tuluse]

The main criticism on Enhanced Editions was that they even exist.

As for character customization & leveling up, if choices would turn out mostly cosmetic like the mentioned +5 to hit, that wouldn't be much of an improvement would it. And when I played first beta it was a lot like that. Give fighter more abilities that he already has per level. I guess it's one way of starting a character build, but it's not the most exciting one.

+5 accuracy is roughly equal to +1 to hit in D&D. I don't know if something giving +1 to hit or -1 THAC0 would be considered cosmetic in BG.