Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Speaking of graphics and graphics whoring: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70418-is-it-me-or-baldurs-gate-look-better-than-poe/?p=1567501

Hey, thanks for your feedback.

We've referenced the old IE games a lot during the area creation process. This includes going through and replaying them and having static screenshots up on our servers to look at. We did make some different stylistic choices than were made with those games - a bit more realism in colors, textures, and design is one of those choices. It may be that these choices are not as aesthetically appealing to you (or they may be more so, beauty is subjective like that).

Anyways, we've put a lot of consideration into how we wanted these areas to look. There is generally a reason that an area will look a certain way. We also have gone through a lot of places multiple times to improve upon the look and try to better make it fit the area's design needs. In some cases screenshots or video that you're seeing is out of date - either new, improved renders were made, additional effects added, or the scene was given a paintover (or all of the above). We also have been keeping some of the most impressive screens out of the public eye - a lot of the really cool set pieces play heavily into the story or are just something we don't want to spoil before it's encountered in game.

That being said, we do take concerns with the game's art seriously. I appreciate any feedback that people have to give and we are working on improving more areas as much as possible before release (for example, working on character/3d object lighting has been a big part of my life the last couple of months).

Thanks,

-Sean.

 

[Grunker]

The PoE dolls got a big upgrade with one of the patches I think.

Last time I played, various equipment lacked distinctiveness compared to IE paper dolls.

However, this was an area Josh said they specifically skimped on, re-using 3d assets instead of doing paper doll so they didn't need to recreate stuff. It is exactly the kind of thing you might see updated in a sequel. Especially as they'll have a lot of other 2d work done and need something for 2d artists to do.

Paper Dolls would seriously be sweet. I dunno, normally I am for foregoing aesthetics for raw content, but when it comes to inventories there's just something about a proper paperdoll that appeals to me.

 

[J_C]

I like IE games to the death, but lets not kid ourselves, PoE looks better, or at worst, it is on par with the IE games.

 

[Zed]

Also, how is the interface design 'intern-level'?

Just an explanatory way of saying subpar. Kaz is a great artist but the UI is not good. AFAIK they did not use any (veteran) interface designers.

As for the BG2 comparison, I don't see your point because BG2 is aesthetically superior to PoE in every single way.

 

[Athelas]

Also, how is the interface design 'intern-level'?

As for the BG2 comparison, I don't see your point because BG2 is aesthetically superior to PoE in every single way.

Is that why you left out the comparison images in my post? BG2's paperdolls looked bad even compared to older games and most notably its own predecessor, BG1.

Just an explanatory way of saying subpar. Kaz is a great artist but the UI is not good. AFAIK they did not use any (veteran) interface designers.

Subpar in what way? Aesthetics? It doesn't look that great, but that's subjective.

 

[Morality Games]

I like IE games to the death, but lets not kid ourselves, PoE looks better, or at worst, it is on par with the IE games.

Unfortunately, it also has the irredeemable vice that it isn't old.

 

[Rostere]

I don't give a shit about graphics, but apart from the UI and the sometimes overdone visual effects, P:E is probably better than BG2.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Based on my aesthetic preferences, I think PoE looks better than BG2. There. What about it now? A lot of this is subjective, as has been said before.

 

[Zed]

Also, how is the interface design 'intern-level'?

As for the BG2 comparison, I don't see your point because BG2 is aesthetically superior to PoE in every single way.

Is that why you left out the comparison images in my post?

It's a shitty comparison, that's why I left it out. Grab a SS of a Dwarf PoE inventory (the modal window) and I'll write you some comparisons.

Just an explanatory way of saying subpar. Kaz is a great artist but the UI is not good. AFAIK they did not use any (veteran) interface designers.

Subpar in what way? Aesthetics? I guess, but that's subjective.

PoE uses small shitty (immobile!) modal windows, cramped information boxes, bland and boring "solids" (texture-work between buttons etc), small-as-fuck icons. There's more but I have a feeling you're not to be convinced so I won't waste my time.
Everything in life is subjective.

 

[Athelas]

It's a shitty comparison, that's why I left it out. Grab a SS of a Dwarf PoE inventory (the modal window) and I'll write you some comparisons.

What's a modal window? You know what the PoE inventory looks like, I don't think I need to show it. The BG2 paperdolls of humans hardly look better than the dwarf ones. The PoE picture was a low-res pre-polish character model.

PoE uses small shitty (immobile!) modal windows, cramped information boxes, bland and boring "solids" (texture-work between buttons etc), small-as-fuck icons. There's more but I have a feeling you're not to be convinced so I won't waste my time. Everything in life is subjective.

So aesthetics it is. I would've liked something more solid as well, but it's absurd to claim that something is 'intern-level' when it doesn't meet your preferences. If the UI was completely non-functional, you would have a point.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

C) Unity limitations like memory issues causing desolate cities (can't have too many NPCs) and a massive amount of loading screens.

1) As far as I understand, their memory issues aren't related to NPCs, but to assets in general and placing more NPCs didn't aggravate the problem, so they could place as many of them as they wanted, and in any case they fixed their memory problems if I'm not mistaken.
2) There's no such thing as Unity limitations in regards to loading screens and the amount of NPCs, you can make a Unity based MMO or an open world RPG with a streaming world and thousands of NPCs.

 

[tuluse]

1) As far as I understand, their memory issues aren't related to NPCs, but to assets in general and placing more NPCs didn't aggravate the problem, so they could place as many of them as they want, and in any case they fixed their memory problems if I'm not mistaken.
2) There's no such thing as Unity limitations in regards to loading screens and the amount of NPCs, you can make a Unity based MMO with a streaming world and thousands of NPCs.

Josh said they couldn't put too many NPCs on a map when people commented the about the city maps looking/feeling empty. I think it was a memory and CPU issue. Even if they have that solved *now* they didn't when we (Zed) saw the maps.

 

[Grunker]

placing more NPCs didn't aggravate the problem, so they could place as many of them as they wanted

Where did you get this from?

 

[Rake]

At SA[....]

That thread also went Full Goon. Turns out some people look forward to PoE because it's another Obsidian story, and they have no particular fondness for PC exclusive late 90s/early 00s-style role playing games.

If that isn't proof that Sawyer should had dismissed opinions coming from SA posters when designing an IE spiritual successor, i don't know what is.

 

[Grunker]

Even if they have that solved *now*

Do we have some quote on this?

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Where did you get this from?

I just don't see how it could cause memory problems.

Josh said they couldn't put too many NPCs on a map when people commented the about the city maps looking/feeling empty. I think it was a memory and CPU issue. Even if they have that solved *now* they didn't when we (Zed) saw the maps.

Yeah, maybe they put so much shit in the Update (a method executed on every frame for each unit) that placing too many NPCs clogs the CPU.

It's possible to optimize it, obviously.

 

[Zed]

It's a shitty comparison, that's why I left it out. Grab a SS of a Dwarf PoE inventory (the modal window) and I'll write you some comparisons.

What's a modal window? You know what the PoE inventory looks like, I don't think I need to show it. The BG2 paperdolls of humans hardly look better than the dwarf ones. The PoE picture was a low-res pre-polish character model.

It's like a pop-up window that block interaction behind it. Imagine if BG2 fullscreen interfaces were shrunken to see what's "behind" – e.g. PoE windows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window

The point is that there are dwarf paperdolls. Unique sprites. All PoE has are re-sized human models, sometimes with stupid shit on their heads (godlikes).
The PoE SS shows none of the interface. Show entire screenshots. I know both pretty well but I won't argue point-by-point details as if it's in front of me when it's not.

PoE uses small shitty (immobile!) modal windows, cramped information boxes, bland and boring "solids" (texture-work between buttons etc), small-as-fuck icons. There's more but I have a feeling you're not to be convinced so I won't waste my time. Everything in life is subjective.

So aesthetics it is. I would've liked something more solid as well, but it's absurd to claim that something is 'intern-level' when it doesn't meet your preferences. If the UI was completely non-functional, you would have a point.

There's more to an interface than looks and binary functionality. Things can be more or less functional, so to speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction_design

 

[Zed]

C) Unity limitations like memory issues causing desolate cities (can't have too many NPCs) and a massive amount of loading screens.

1) As far as I understand, their memory issues aren't related to NPCs, but to assets in general and placing more NPCs didn't aggravate the problem, so they could place as many of them as they wanted, and in any case they fixed their memory problems if I'm not mistaken.
2) There's no such thing as Unity limitations in regards to loading screens and the amount of NPCs, you can make a Unity based MMO or an open world RPG with a streaming world and thousands of NPCs.

Really can't be arsed finding the source but I think it was Brennecke who said there's a limit to how much they can populate cities because of memory issues. It was after the PAX stream, either on twitter or elsewhere.

As for 2), you're right about the loading. Again can't be arsed to find a source, but this was something that was discussed on the devtracker. Something like they could make it work like in BG2 and bunch a lot of zones' loading times together, but this would result in too long loading times. They also said that the streaming was on top of their list for a sequel (or was it expansion? dunno).

So yeah, maybe it's unfair to say that these are Unity limitations. Obsidian limitations, then.

 

[Athelas]

It's like a pop-up window that block interaction behind it. Imagine if BG2 fullscreen interfaces were shrunken to see what's "behind" – e.g. PoE windows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window

Still don't know what this means.

The point is that there are dwarf paperdolls. Unique sprites. All PoE has are re-sized human models, sometimes with stupid shit on their heads (godlikes).

You're pointing out that godlikes have unique models, good job of undermining your own argument. Moreover, because PoE is using 3d models, all its armors can be unique and distinctive instead of having to repeatedly palette-swap the same handful of not-so-great-looking armors like BG2 did.

Of course, it's fairly absurd that they put so much effort into something that can't be seen from an isometric perspective:

The PoE SS shows none of the interface. Show entire screenshots. I know both pretty well but I won't argue point-by-point details as if it's in front of me when it's not.

If you care so much, you can take a screenshot and make the comparison yourself. I just picked the first thing that came up in a Google search.

There's more to an interface than looks and binary functionality. Things can be more or less functional, so to speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction_design

Wikipedia links aren't arguments. Explain what you mean.

 

[Apexeon]

though it was obvious considering IWD2 already had so many things to reuse and a much shorter development schedule.

I am really glad that it seems PoE2 will be a BG2 in the sense that it will re-use engine, assets, the works and just focus on new content.

Why? Do you think the content of PoE will be lacking?
PoE's shortcomings seem to be A) intern-level UX design, B) combat (for many, at least), and C) Unity limitations like memory issues causing desolate cities (can't have too many NPCs) and a massive amount of loading screens.
I don't see how new content will be better if the framework remains shitty.
Also a lot of the assets are laughable. Character models, armors, interface icons, etc. This is probably what will be re-used if anything. "Hooray."

Zed is right. More content does not fix core flaws it just adds more rooms to the house.

If content makes a game awesome then World of Warcraft has just become the most awesome Crpg ever as it has like bazillion of lootz and dungeons.
IF POE2 is more of the same bland DPS combat count me out. I am already out when I found out the lead designer wants to work for blizzard by spouting out % balance.

This game for me is a total fail as they pitched a BG2 spiritual successor and then proceeded to gut it (cut out the soul).
BAIT and switch.
No respect for what BG2 was built on (advance d&d2 rule set/ hard counters). Its a assembly line game with no passion, no soul.

When I backed them I believed that they might just go back and respect the old school.
They didn't.

 

[Grunker]

Your posts makes no sense. No one has even suggested that quantity of content is all that matters.

The only point that has been made is that focusing development ressources on quality content is easy if you have the engine and Assets from a previous game.

 

[Grunker]

The rest of your post is just a personal statement. I obciously disagree but it's not very interesting to talk about

 

[Rake]

This game for me is a total fail as they pitched a BG2 spiritual successor and then proceeded to gut it (cut out the soul).

Except they did not

 

[Infinitron]

I think the point here is that PoE2 will be a high level campaign which may see the introduction of more sophisticated AI, epic battles and mage duels (without hard counters, of course)

 

[Apexeon]

Your posts makes no sense. No one has even suggested that quantity of content is all that matters.

The only point that has been made is that focusing development ressources on quality content is easy if you have the engine and Assets from a previous game.

The direction of POE is set. Adding more content onto a percentage based system is just more of the same.
I will not play this system. If this system was clearly layed out at the start I would not back them.
I will give the game a crack to see if combat is interesting but if not I have better things to do.
At the moment I would probably go through BG2 again then play POE.

POE is a new design from the ground up. Which is fine I would like more direct honesty in KS pitches.
So POE 2 more of the same = money in my pocket.