Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Rake]

and mage duels (without hard counters, of course)

AKA no mage duels. IWDs didn't have mage duels, so even if Sawyer makes PoE's magic system just as game changing and overpowered as D&D, wizard opponents will still be shit

 

[Grunker]

Your posts are all over the place Apexeon. If you just want to state your general dissatisfaction with PoE then more power to ya, but it has nothing to do with a specific debate concerning The reuse if existing assets.

 

[Athelas]

I think the point here is that PoE2 will be a high level campaign which may see the introduction of more sophisticated AI, epic battles and mage duels (without hard counters, of course)

I don't think the current system supports mage duels. Right now, fighting random wild life can be more dangerous than fighting spellcasters.

That being said, adding hard counters to PoE would be pretty easy. Just make a spell that gives +25 deflection give +250 deflection and it's a hard counter...ish.

 

[Grunker]

Ye I don't see what a mage duel would be like here.

 

[Rostere]

Yeah, and then you just need to mod in dispels to do the actual countering.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm sure there are of plenty of ways in which the game could have combat approximating something anybody could call a "mage duel" without the mages becoming invincible beings whose defenses need to be stripped down by other mages

 

[Athelas]

Yeah, and then you just need to mod in dispels to do the actual countering.

There already dispels in the game, their numbers would just need tweaking.

 

[Rostere]

Yeah, and then you just need to mod in dispels to do the actual countering.

There already dispels in the game, their numbers would just need tweaking.

Sorry, I have been keeping myself from playing the beta. I was under the impression that anything even remotely resembling a mage battle was gone.

 

[Roguey]

AKA no mage duels. IWDs didn't have mage duels, so even if Sawyer makes PoE's magic system just as game changing and overpowered as D&D, wizard opponents will still be shit

It had some cool fights with spellcasters.

Pretty sure Josh said he'd look into things like spell sequencers for the expansion/sequel.

 

[Rake]

I'm sure there are of plenty of ways in which the game could have combat approximating something anybody could call a "mage duel" without the mages becoming invincible beings whose defenses need to be stripped down by other mages

You can't. When it's more easy to just sent the melee dudes to kill the mage (the quicker way to kill any mage in IWDs), having a "mage duel" is impossible. The whole point of "magic duels" was because it was between two opponents that both used magic. If you can sidestep the whole spell and counterspell thing and just bash them with a sword, it's not a duel any more.

 

[Rake]

AKA no mage duels. IWDs didn't have mage duels, so even if Sawyer makes PoE's magic system just as game changing and overpowered as D&D, wizard opponents will still be shit

It had some cool fights with spellcasters.

If you say so...

 

[Infinitron]

Let's DISCUSS it: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/mage-duels-without-hard-counters.97027/

 

[Apexeon]

Your posts are all over the place Apexeon. If you just want to state your general dissatisfaction with PoE then more power to ya, but it has nothing to do with a specific debate concerning The reuse if existing assets.

Agree. Back to drinking.

 

[Zed]

It's like a pop-up window that block interaction behind it. Imagine if BG2 fullscreen interfaces were shrunken to see what's "behind" – e.g. PoE windows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window

Still don't know what this means.

It's a fucking window.
Imagine if you open a Windows folder, except you cannot click the icons on your desktop until you close it.

The point is that there are dwarf paperdolls. Unique sprites. All PoE has are re-sized human models, sometimes with stupid shit on their heads (godlikes).

You're pointing out that godlikes have unique models, good job of undermining your own argument. Moreover, because PoE is using 3d models, all its armors can be unique and distinctive instead of having to repeatedly palette-swap the same handful of not-so-great-looking armors like BG2 did.

Of course, it's fairly absurd that they put so much effort into something that can't be seen from an isometric perspective:

You make a good point here: they design 3D models for a side/top-down perspective. Just like in Shadowrun, it looks like crap when brought up close.

To be fair, they have improved the models a lot since we first saw them. But I will always prefer a paperdoll in pixels.

The PoE SS shows none of the interface. Show entire screenshots. I know both pretty well but I won't argue point-by-point details as if it's in front of me when it's not.

If you care so much, you can take a screenshot and make the comparison yourself. I just picked the first thing that came up in a Google search.

There's more to an interface than looks and binary functionality. Things can be more or less functional, so to speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction_design

Wikipedia links aren't arguments. Explain what you mean.

"There's more to an interface than looks and binary functionality. Things can be more or less functional, so to speak."
Let's say you've got a chair. You can sit in it. It's now functional from a binary (1/0, yes/no) point of view. But it could be more or less comfortable.

PoE's interface is functional, but it could be better, no?
Here I'm not saying BG2 or any other specific game is better, by the way.

 

[DemonKing]

I never liked all the mage protective spells in BG2 - every mage you met seemed to have multiple defenses all set up the moment you walked in the door. Of course, in IWD and the original BG you just had to target spellcasters with missile attacks or magic missile spells until your fighters got within clobbering range to keep them under control.

I haven't played the PoE beta but maybe a system like 3rd Ed where being hit has a chance to disrupt your spell would be the best option (I'm pretty sure IWD2 used this).

 

[polo]

Level cap in PoE is 12?

 

[Athelas]

You make a good point here: they design 3D models for a side/top-down perspective. Just like in Shadowrun, it looks like crap when brought up close.

It looks fine from afar, the actual game, which is where'll you'll be looking at it for more than 5 seconds at a time.

And I see you dodged my comments on BG2's model/armor variety and quality compared to PoE's.

"There's more to an interface than looks and binary functionality. Things can be more or less functional, so to speak."
Let's say you've got a chair. You can sit in it. It's now functional from a binary (1/0, yes/no) point of view. But it could be more or less comfortable.

PoE's interface is functional, but it could be better, no?
Here I'm not saying BG2 or any other specific game is better, by the way.

Sure, for example, I think the combat log functions pretty badly in PoE. But it does plenty of other UI-related things well (some things no other RPG's do), so calling it intern-level isn't very accurate at all.

 

[Sensuki]

Roby Atadero said that he is going to optimize the character/unit code to try and prevent the CPU hogging.

 

[Roguey]

You can't. When it's more easy to just sent the melee dudes to kill the mage (the quicker way to kill any mage in IWDs), having a "mage duel" is impossible. The whole point of "magic duels" was because it was between two opponents that both used magic. If you can sidestep the whole spell and counterspell thing and just bash them with a sword, it's not a duel any more.

This suggests a battle against a single enemy spellcaster instead of a large group of 'em.

 

[Sensuki]

I asked about paint overs

Thanks for the comments.

It can be a little tricky unifying work that comes in from multiple sources (especially outsourced work as they may have different workflows and different ways of doing things than we're used to). The areas around Dyrford were actually the first ones made for the project. The Temple of Skaen was literally the first area that I made that was not just a test scene. As the project went along, we got faster and more experienced at making these areas and that allowed the designers more leeway when it came to how they laid out the areas and what exactly they could expect of the final results.

Not every area has had a paintover pass. Because of the sheer number of areas in the game and the very, very small art team, we were not able to paint over every area. Our goal was to make areas look as good as they could in the base render under the assumption that we would not be able to paint over them and then we made sort of executive decisions in terms of which areas we thought would benefit most from a paintover. Most of the areas that have been seen have either not had a pass or only had very minor tweaks.

Because of the real-time lighting situation, we actually can be fairly limited in what we can do with a paintover. My favorite IE games, visually, are absolutely IWD and IWD2. Those games still look great and I reference their artwork frequently. A lot of that work, however, was done in a paintover and they were capable of painting things that we cannot. We need to be aware of height and normal information in addition to just the render itself. This can make editing these scenes after the fact even more difficult and time-consuming than it would be otherwise.

All of us enjoy working in 2d and it's fun to get a chance to do a pass on areas, but we just don't have the time and manpower to devote to giving every area a paintover.

-Sean

Personally I don't care about 3D lighting. I'd prefer painted areas to wanky lighting shit that is mostly just annoying.

 

[Athelas]

You obviously haven't seen the sun set at Dyrford Crossing. The lighting in this game is beautiful.

Besides, he's saying they're limited by budget/time anyway.

 

[Zed]

And I see you dodged my comments on BG2's model/armor variety and quality compared to PoE's.

BG2 has a good variety of player character base models. One for each race-gender combo. NPCs has variations as well: children, fat merchants, noble ladies and such. PoE has very little variation as I've already stated. This is what I can comment on now, from just playing the beta.

I cannot comment on armor variety in PoE as I have not played the full game.

EDIT: By the way, we were discussing the interface on a whole and how the two games compare. You provided the comparison pictures where one actually shows a bit of interface (BG2) and the other does not (PoE). I never made any arguments against PoE armor or any such thing.

Sure, for example, I think the combat log functions pretty badly in PoE. But it does plenty of other UI-related things well (some things no other RPG's do), so calling it intern-level isn't very accurate at all.

This time, let me be the inquisitive one. What are some of the things you think it does well (that no other RPG do)?

 

[Sensuki]

You obviously haven't seen the sun set at Dyrford Crossing. The lighting in this game is beautiful.

Besides, he's saying they're limited by budget/time anyway.

Are you sure that's not just a color gradient change? There is no denying that the lighting in the game is pretty good, but in combat it's just not really super practical IMO.

Besides, he's saying they're limited by budget/time anyway

See my reply on the official boards.

 

[Sensuki]

I'm from Minnesota, so I just appreciate anything that's covered in snow and ice.

It is too bad that we were somewhat hamstrung in terms of paintover stuff, but this was a very small project (relative to game development) and we had to be very careful in choosing where we spent our time. I'm confident in the techniques that we've learned and refined and, like you said, there will hopefully be more time for this stuff in a future update.

Overall though, I'm very satisfied with the work we've done and I look forward to people getting to see the game as a whole. I know we're not going to please everybody (the nature of life, especially game development) but I think there's a lot to like here.

 

[Copper]

Athelas The fact that most game graphic and interface design is about as well thought out as Blender's interface does not excuse the flaws here. The annoying thing is, user interface design is probably the most studied, data-driven side of design, alongside stuff like proper industrial design, so it's not like hitting the basics is some sort of mysterious arbitrary aesthetic process if it's part of your profession.