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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Crooked Bee

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Mah mighty tribal monk

monk2.jpg


She looks so angry.

I haven't really been reading up on the attributes so my stat allocation was more along the lines of
noidea2.jpg


I really like the idea of "wounds"; no idea yet how it's gonna work in practice, though.
 

Semper

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This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.

pls, no! i don't like to watch the animation of an opening door just to enter an area... this adds unnecessary time to load the next map without any gain in gameplay. i am strictly talking about doors for area transition. btw that was the first thing i did for custom modules in nwn - custom door transitions without animation.

Though I don't expect it this week anymore.

better to expect it late in september with their release plans for new builds.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.

pls, no! i don't like to watch the animation of an opening door just to enter an area... this adds unnecessary time to load the next map without any gain in gameplay. i am strictly talking about doors for area transition. btw that was the first thing i did for custom modules in nwn - custom door transitions without animation.

Well, in Baldur's Gate, when you opened a door, it stayed open forever. :)
 

roshan

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This is a silly thing, but it'd be nice if we actually needed to open the door to the Dracogen Inn before entering it, instead of just clicking on a closed door for area transition.

pls, no! i don't like to watch the animation of an opening door just to enter an area... this adds unnecessary time to load the next map without any gain in gameplay. i am strictly talking about doors for area transition. btw that was the first thing i did for custom modules in nwn - custom door transitions without animation.

Or they can do it in the good old abstract IE style and have doors open without any stupid animations being played. God that was a fucking awesome engine.
 

Rivmusique

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Boring beta story about the damage/DT issues that I should probably be posting on the Obs forums rather than here :M :
Had another go, seems that enemy DT/damage going screwy is definitely not exclusive to loading a save. I did the Nyfre quest in the village (killed her, let the people hunting her leave), that fight seemed normal, taking decent damage and they had DTs. Picked up the rest of the quests and headed to Dyrford crossing. Did 2 beetle fights then headed the southway, killed wolves and spiders in to the cave. I'm sure all of this was normal, noticeable DT on beetles and pretty high damage (though the poison is always high damage, even when the game goes to shit and all other hits on you are 0.1-4, so it's hard to be sure). Killed one spider pack, the ogre, then another pack to take the alternate exit, all fine there. Back in the wilderness though, suddenly nothing had DTs and we're taking shit all damage. I wasn't sure at the beginning because I don't even know what the Wurms/dragon egg party are supposed to hit/be-hit like, but I checked on some of the beetles I skipped. I know for sure the stone beetles are meant to have 15 crush DT and 30 slash (and pierce is one of the two), but now zero. And their damage is shit.

Continued on anyway, back to the village and got in a fight with the tanner. They have DTs at least, but get dropped fast and don't seem to do much damage. But as far as I know that is always an easy fight. Go to the dungeon underneath and all the DTs of the beetles there are fine too, but incoming damage on party seems low. Check combat log and all my characters who got hit seem to have ~7 higher DT then the inventory shows. Deflection is also boosted. But the math there is of course strange and not really consistent in what damage is actually being blocked. Quit when I hit the bug I often have down there, party members who are hobbled are unresponsive until I reload, and as loading has usually started the DT/damage issues I thought I'd best not.

Sensuki asked for this last time, don't know if he can make sense of it or is forwarding to Obs, but it is no big deal to upload so here it is: http://www.upload.ee/files/4220911/output_log.txt.html
 

Jaesun

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11571.png

I normally do not ever play BETA's, but a few things about this greatly concern me. But now I can tell who is posting bullshit and who isn't.
 

Semper

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Well, in Baldur's Gate, when you opened a door, it stayed open forever. :)

oohh teh immersion :P

@ie: why exactly is an open door needed? the displayed icon tells enough to know what to expect. toee and poe do it right.
 

Blaine

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Question: am i being a whiny fag, or is combat actually boring? (I haven't read all the replies here but it seems more like combat is considered badly implemented rather than boring, and while bad implementation can be fixed, boredom can still happen with well implemented combat...)

Nah, it's boring, and the comparison to MMORPGs is apt. On multiple occasions over the years, I've pointed out that PoE is a generic fantasy setting with a twist!, and that shows, too. I'll also refer back to my "quest XP only" MMORPG-style advancement comparison. Boring character creation and boring combat are the inevitable results of heavy-handed balancing and rigidly ensuring every attribute and class is "equally useful," as I predicted months ago. Hell, there aren't even any healers, so unlike in MMORPGs, you have only tank and DPS. To top it all off, the game's RTwP. A proper TB implementation would help combat to feel more satisfying, I think.

Predictions or no, this is shaping up to (potentially) be worse than I expected, though I'm not nearly as appalled by the beta (it IS a very early beta) as some other Codexers seem to be. This is probably because I've been expecting some of this bullshit for over a year already. A lot of the design decisions for PoE annoyed me from the get-go, but I still pledged $250 and it can still be an excellent game purely by merit of the dialogue and exploring cities and dungeons.

Importantly, the combat isn't BAD, it's just not GOOD. For a cRPG, that's actually pretty decent.
 
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Ulminati

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I haven't really been reading up on the attributes so my stat allocation was more along the lines of
View attachment 3892

Consensus seems to be you can just make your attributes whatever and your character will be no better or worse than any other as a result of magic Sawyer dust.

11571.png

I normally do not ever play BETA's, but a few things about this greatly concern me. But now I can tell who is posting bullshit and who isn't.

Everything is (bull)shit.
 

ksaun

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I'm not going to claim I have an unbiased opinion, and it would likely be wiser of me to stay completely out of this discussion, but my sense of fairness compels me to say this: I've only played PoE a little, but the things I've encountered thus far that degrade the combat experience do not strike me as fundamental, intractable problems. Rather, they are the types of issues that can be sorted out fairly quickly through iteration. (I realize that some are probably sick of hearing about how game development is an iterative process but, well, it generally is.) Or, if you'd like to be more cynical (a long shot here, I know), then I'll phrase it this way: the current complaints people have are the type that make it hard to realize how truly, truly awful and dreadful (amazing and satisfying) the combat in the final game will be.

The point I want to make is that the despair that some are expressing regarding PoE's combat is probably premature. Good, critical feedback will help Obsidian iron things out and improve the combat experience. Unless Josh/PoE has spoken specifically to <insert the target of your loathing here> being the way they intend it to be, I think there is reason to be optimistic. (Those who dislike, say, the attribute design part might have less solace.)

P.S. I backed PoE at the $250 level before I even had any clue I'd be returning to entertainment games. So I have an interest in, and hope for, PoE's success just as some/many others here do.

P.P.S. The constructive feedback by many has been greatly helpful to the PoE team, I'm sure. I suspect those folks will ultimately feel vindicated. (Many developers really, really do appreciate constructive feedback; when it's ignored, it's due to lack of time or competing priorities or other considerations, generally to one's regret.)
 

felipepepe

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Ok, Snerf was a bro and donated me a key, here's some feedback after finishing the beta and derping a bit with the game:

Good stuff:
- Looks great.
- Everything outside of combat plays like a proper sequel to IE games.
- The text-adventure bits are nice.
- Heavy nostalgia feelings.

The bad:
- these fucking %-based systems, from stats to spells and items.
- Hard to understand things during battle.
- UI needs some work.
- Icons are too small.

Here's some more detailed feedback:

- Stat system is fucking dumb, and boring. Seriously. There's no reason for not giving max Might to all characters, nothing has any stat requirement and the overall feeling is that nothing matters unless you're trying to min-max. Not to mention how Intelligence is clearly a dump-stat that Sawyer "solved" by making it the most important in dialog. So yeah, the only reason to make our char use Int is if you want to see some additional dialogs. Meaning anyone creating a custom party will have 5 guys at his back with 3 Int, including the Wizard, cause "D&D sucks and I'll do something better".

- It's too hard to access the mage's spells (open inventory, right click on the grimoire), and I can't see a way to access the priest's "grimoire" in the same way. I'm guessing that it doesn't even exist.

- When reading the character's stat page, you can't switch characters, you have to close it, select a different character and then open it again.

- Combat log is horribly polluted with pointless shit and it records too little:

AtR2oHX.png

It's a pain to find relevant info instead of "Bob recovered 0 stamina because stuffie", and you can't scroll back much. It's so short that you usually can't even go as back as the start of a battle you just fought.

- It's hard to see what your characters are doing, and when they have finished doing it. Sure, it's easy to see a fireball flying, but I have a really hard time seeing if the priest has already casted a heal or a buff, or if the fighter has tried his knockdown attack already. The chaotic combat log that hides away relevant info under rubbish makes it even worse.

Also, the spell effects are just too chaotic and get in the way of the action. I can't see for shit here:

t3iw0Vo.png


They should add some feedback to when you land criticals. BG had the screen shake and characters would shout something. I think that's a good solution.

And they should add something like the attack circles from IE:

baldurs-gate-4.png

A quick glance at the above screen shows that my party is attacking that Ghoul, but there's nothing like that in PoE.

- Character's pathfinding is bad, they constantly get stuck behind each other.

- There's a lot of repetitive and boring spells. Seriously, most of the spells are "decrease/increase X stats", followed then by some damage spells that also "decrease X stats". There are almost no utility spells like Dispel, Identify, Knock, Sense Trap, Charm, Sleep, Detect Invisibility, etc... Instead you have ultra-specific stuff like "decrease by X% the accuracy of disengagement attacks in the area".

Not to mention that they are very repetitive. There's a "Mirror Image" spell for Wizards on Lv 1, 2 and 3:

8IDebd9.png


Very creative. That's what you get for not linking spell's efficiency to the spellcaster level, Sawyer.

- You cannot see spell's detailed effect when selecting the on level up. They only show up when in your Grimoire:

2ITqbet.png


- Documentation is seriously lacking. I.e., the game shows that the Resilience stat raise Concentration. But nowhere it explains what Concentration is.

- The stats description also are confusing as hell. Just try to make sense of this:

GOIv8xQ.png


"+4 Melee" means melee damage? if so, why it's "on attack"? Why a sword gives Ranged bonus? What "Accuracy, x1,25 Damage" means? Does it adds 1,25x my accuracy to the damage?

But the worst offender are these fucking % everywhere, that you can only guess. "+50% Crush damage" means that it boost my Crush damage in 50%, or it adds 50% of my damage as additional Crush damage? I have no clue. And what the hell is 1000% (lol) Crush damage, since the weapon gives Slashing damage?

Seriously, the game is fun, but it's DESPISE the "Sawyer-ism", that plagues it. It feels like the most convoluted and overly complicated system I ever played. Every time I wanted to cast a spell or change an equipment I was staring at %. It feels like it was made for min-maxers by a guy that hates min-maxing, as if trying to please some distorted stereotypical image he had of what grognards like. Being a master player of PoE means pilling up %s in the right way. People will call me hater for this, but it's MMO as fuck, it's the same design philosophy I saw when playing WoW: you can derp as you want with the stats and it won't mean a thing, but if you want to "play seriously", you better follow this equation to optimal damage output, pile up the correct numbers and deal 7.85% more damage than you do now.

Spells and items are also boring. There are no game changers (at least in the beta). Everything is "gives you a bit more of X". Looking at the item enchantment list, I feel like looking at Diablo's random item generator. And most spells feel superfluous... the important thing is to control your party formation and actions, if you do this right you won't need "+8% of defelction" to win the battle anyway. And it's made worst by the stamina system. Why waste a spell to to things a bit easier, if the damage you're taking is temporary anyway?

And I just don't get how this itemization is supposed to work. Everyone can use everything, so why care? Give the heaviest armor to everyone n the party, there's no minimun requirement or penalty. Your mage and rogue can go full plate and still sneak or cast spells perfectly. So why are the other armors even there? If anything, equipping your party seems to be all about everyone using the heaviest armors, but with different enchantments... again, WoW feelings: "Mage and Priest use the same Cloth Armor, but Mages should enchant Int and Priest enchant Spirit." And WoW had cloth leather, chain and plate mail, each limited to a set of classes.... PoE doesn't even have that.

In short, I like the text-adventure bits and everything that's directly stolen from IE, but the rest needs some heavy work. Especially the stats, the spells and the items. But sadly, I doubt those will change.
 

Curious_Tongue

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I'm not going to claim I have an unbiased opinion, and it would likely be wiser of me to stay completely out of this discussion, but my sense of fairness compels me to say this: I've only played PoE a little, but the things I've encountered thus far that degrade the combat experience do not strike me as fundamental, intractable problems. Rather, they are the types of issues that can be sorted out fairly quickly through iteration. (I realize that some are probably sick of hearing about how game development is an iterative process but, well, it generally is.) Or, if you'd like to be more cynical (a long shot here, I know), then I'll phrase it this way: the current complaints people have are the type that make it hard to realize how truly, truly awful and dreadful (amazing and satisfying) the combat in the final game will be.

The point I want to make is that the despair that some are expressing regarding PoE's combat is probably premature. Good, critical feedback will help Obsidian iron things out and improve the combat experience. Unless Josh/PoE has spoken specifically to <insert the target of your loathing here> being the way they intend it to be, I think there is reason to be optimistic. (Those who dislike, say, the attribute design part might have less solace.)

P.S. I backed PoE at the $250 level before I even had any clue I'd be returning to entertainment games. So I have an interest in, and hope for, PoE's success just as some/many others here do.

P.P.S. The constructive feedback by many has been greatly helpful to the PoE team, I'm sure. I suspect those folks will ultimately feel vindicated. (Many developers really, really do appreciate constructive feedback; when it's ignored, it's due to lack of time or competing priorities or other considerations, generally to one's regret.)

What's with the font size?
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
the current complaints people have are the type that make it hard to realize how truly, truly awful and dreadful (amazing and satisfying) the combat in the final game will be.

Hmmm?

I must be misunderstanding something about this idiom, but be prepared for a bunch of people who interpret it as a Freudian slip. :P
 

Duraframe300

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I'm not going to claim I have an unbiased opinion, and it would likely be wiser of me to stay completely out of this discussion, but my sense of fairness compels me to say this: I've only played PoE a little, but the things I've encountered thus far that degrade the combat experience do not strike me as fundamental, intractable problems. Rather, they are the types of issues that can be sorted out fairly quickly through iteration. (I realize that some are probably sick of hearing about how game development is an iterative process but, well, it generally is.) Or, if you'd like to be more cynical (a long shot here, I know), then I'll phrase it this way: the current complaints people have are the type that make it hard to realize how truly, truly awful and dreadful (amazing and satisfying) the combat in the final game will be.

The point I want to make is that the despair that some are expressing regarding PoE's combat is probably premature. Good, critical feedback will help Obsidian iron things out and improve the combat experience. Unless Josh/PoE has spoken specifically to <insert the target of your loathing here> being the way they intend it to be, I think there is reason to be optimistic. (Those who dislike, say, the attribute design part might have less solace.)

P.S. I backed PoE at the $250 level before I even had any clue I'd be returning to entertainment games. So I have an interest in, and hope for, PoE's success just as some/many others here do.

P.P.S. The constructive feedback by many has been greatly helpful to the PoE team, I'm sure. I suspect those folks will ultimately feel vindicated. (Many developers really, really do appreciate constructive feedback; when it's ignored, it's due to lack of time or competing priorities or other considerations, generally to one's regret.)

Bes' pos' ever.
 

Blaine

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I agree it's not nearly as bad a situation as some Codexers are making it out to be, yet consequences predicted years/months ago—largely based upon Josh's design philosophy—have come to pass in playable format. His design philosophy won't be changing radically between now and release, so we'll just have to wait and see what can be improved and by how much.

As ever, the truth is typically somewhere in between the opinions of pole-smoking worshipful fanboys and rabid haters.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Considering starting a huge argument with felipepepe and turning thread into another Wasteland 2 Beta Release-style hellhole :smug:
 

Athelas

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Heavy armor is supposed to affect attack/casting speed and recovery time...I think? Also, wizard spells have inherent accuracy bonuses, rangers have inherent accuracy bonuses when using ranged weapons, etc. So there is some class differentiation.

That being said, PoE's system does scream 'I wanna be a classless system!'. Not too surprising since I believe that's also Sawyer's preference.
 

Grunker

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As ever, the truth is typically somewhere in between the opinions of pole-smoking worshipful fanboys and rabid haters.

It is, and I agree with most of your criticism, but the WoW-analogy remains the argumentum ad hitlerum of PoE. There are very few similarities. Though I only ever played WoW to Level 55 once (and level 40 shortly after it was relieved), I feel pretty safe saying that my time with the two games were nothing like each other. It's like saying Football is like Handball because both games have teams that attempt to get balls into nets. Sure, you're right, but playing the games is nothing alike.
 
Weasel
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Or, if you'd like to be more cynical (a long shot here, I know), then I'll phrase it this way: the current complaints people have are the type that make it hard to realize how truly, truly awful and dreadful (amazing and satisfying) the combat in the final game will be.

Hmmm?

I must be misunderstanding something about this idiom, but be prepared for a bunch of people who interpret it as a Freudian slip. :P

He's just saying we can't judge the combat properly yet. And (jokingly) a cynical Codexer could say we can't even appreciate how truly awful combat will be in the final game, fanboys and Dorito addicts can claim everything will turn out wonderfully. Too early to tell.

But as Blaine says a lot of the discussion has been about Sawyer's design rather than bugs and that's unlikely to change much.
 

Grunker

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Sawyer's design rather than bugs and that's unlikely to change much.

I'm not going to be as prophetic as some of you, but Sawyer repeatedly stated that the fundamental crux of any design decision he makes is basing his changes in the BETA on watching people play (not necessarily their feedback). While I often described this philosophy as a pipedream I'll give him the benefit of the doubt yet.
 

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