Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Russia is over. The end.]

Casul time

 

[Bubbles]

I don't think the average casual is going to read, comprehend, and memorize 47 tutorials, but time will tell.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Sensuki
I don't know what you did to stack your characters up like that - but in the current build I am playing, ver. 488, I can't get them to stack up like that. I can't even get their selection circles to overlap. What did you do to get them stack up like that?

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

When you tell your NPC-2 to go to the other side of your NPC-1, he'll often go right through NPC-1 or something like that, and at that precise moment you tell him to stop (press cancel). Repeat with other characters.

 

[Mastermind]

So if you want to save scum a chest, just rest for a day (or advance time by a day by any other means like traveling) and then open it again - you'll have different loot.

Don't you think that this is more of hassle than it worths? All this save scumming and rest scumming. I know I'm like a broken record, but who plays like that? Why don't you mod/cheat yourself a Awesome Sword +10 if you are so desperate to get the best loot in every possible situation?

One is cheating, one isn't. Don't underestimate the psychological rush of getting an awesome item by bending the rules vs modding it in like a popamoler.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't know what you did to stack your characters up like that - but in the current build I am playing, ver. 488, I can't get them to stack up like that. I can't even get their selection circles to overlap. What did you do to get them stack up like that?

Anthony Davis - Roby Atadero said they fixed it today. Do units still clip through each other though? Because in my pathfinding tests, clipping is completely unnecessary as whoever re-did the code did a great job and made units find the correct first shortest path

Here was my report on the topic if you're interested: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71016-v480-pathfinding-report/

 

[Anthony Davis]

When you tell your NPC-2 to go to the other side of your NPC-1, he'll often go right through NPC-1 or something like that, and at that precise moment you tell him to stop (press cancel). Repeat with other characters.

Thanks, that works, kind of, but it took me a few tries to get it. If you click to move, like Bester said on the other side of an NPC that you are right next to, ONCE and cancel, you can get their circles to partially (barely) overlap, but to get them standing on each other, you have to click/cancel in rapid succession, several times, per character - but it does work. I can stack the party.

This does seem like a bug, but again, it is tedious to , but I'm not convinced yet that it would be helpful in real play, especially if you are playing hard difficulty.


I know in Sensuki's both videos he did it while overleveled with a full party of fighters versus bar patrons or other NPCs. I'm not even sure if the NPCs have real stats and gear.

Sensuki , show me this in a real fight please - especially since you seem to be able to set it up pretty good. I don't think 6 fighters wielding two handers versus NPCs is what I would consider a normal situation.


I'm gonna try it as well, but my suspicion is that isn't any real game advantage to be gained here, doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it though.

 

[Sensuki]

I also have one where I do it against Lions, I get like 7 disengagement attacks against them but only two of them actually die.

It does not work against Stone Beetles or the Feral Druids.

Works pretty well against the melee units in Sevis' group - you just pull them away from the ranged guys at the start and then move after they die.

Thanks, that works, kind of, but it took me a few tries to get it. If you click to move, like Bester said on the other side of an NPC that you are right next to, ONCE and cancel, you can get their circles to partially (barely) overlap, but to get them standing on each other, you have to click/cancel in rapid succession, several times, per character - but it does work. I can stack the party.

My pathfinding report explains how to do it better, the condition is that you have to issue a moving unit (isMoving = true) another movement command that vectors across another unit's selection circle when you're right up against them, I believe that's what makes it qualify for noclip, then you just cancel their move action when they're ontop of each other.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I don't know what you did to stack your characters up like that - but in the current build I am playing, ver. 488, I can't get them to stack up like that. I can't even get their selection circles to overlap. What did you do to get them stack up like that?

Anthony Davis - Roby Atadero said they fixed it today. Do units still clip through each other though? Because in my pathfinding tests, clipping is completely unnecessary as whoever re-did the code did a great job and made units find the correct first shortest path

Here was my report on the topic if you're interested: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71016-v480-pathfinding-report/

Dave Symczyk (i have no idea how to spell his last name) re-wrote a lot of the pathfinding code. If it was fixed TODAY, then I don't think I will have that fix yet, maybe tomorrow or Monday. I will happily check it out next time my build updates and let you know, especially now that I know how to repro the stacking part.

Through NORMAL gameplay, I cannot get the overlap to happen at ALL, only was able to do it with how Bester said to do it.

I hope this is all moot now and that it is fixed. It was a good catch no matter what, that's for sure.

 

[ushas]

Casul time

Is there something about the Focus mechanics of Cipher class?

 

[Sensuki]

I hope this is all moot now and that it is fixed. It was a good catch no matter what, that's for sure.

Can you still noclip through NPCs though? Because if you can then you'd be able to stack on top of a neutral NPC most likely, because going through their selection circle makes you qualify for no clip. The pathfinding code seems really nice now, so even clipping through npcs isn't even needed IMO, plus it's exploitable.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I also have one where I do it against Lions, I get like 7 disengagement attacks against them but only two of them actually die.

What version did Roby say it was fixed in?

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Casul time

Is there something about the Focus mechanics of Cipher class?

There are "Chant Basics" and "Selecting Chants". I don't know if that's what you mean, cause I never even tried a chanter.

 

[Sensuki]

All he said was

Just FYI, from what I have seen in the code checkins, that disengagement issue with overlapping characters has been fixed.

It may be that the fix did not fix it?

 

[Anthony Davis]

I hope this is all moot now and that it is fixed. It was a good catch no matter what, that's for sure.

Can you still noclip through NPCs though? Because if you can then you'd be able to stack on top of a neutral NPC most likely, because going through their selection circle makes you qualify for no clip. The pathfinding code seems really nice now, so even clipping through npcs isn't even needed IMO, plus it's exploitable.

I was not seeing ANY clipping through normal play. I was able to stack up on anyone using the method I got from Bester, and I explained up earlier.

You stand next to the person you want to stack on.
Click on the other side of them, cancel immediately, and that sometimes cause them to take a half step.
If you do it right, their selection circles will now partially overlap, like maybe 10%.
If you keep repeating it, they will inch closer and closer. Takes maybe 5 or 6 clicks per person you are stacking.

At least that's what I observed when I tried to repro it.

If you know an easier way to do it, please tell me.

 

[Anthony Davis]

All he said was

Just FYI, from what I have seen in the code checkins, that disengagement issue with overlapping characters has been fixed.

It may be that the fix did not fix it?

I'll email him.

EDIT: I emailed Roby and Adam, I'll let you know.

 

[Sensuki]

If you know an easier way to do it, please tell me.

I just did

the condition is that you have to issue a moving unit (isMoving = true) another movement command that vectors across another unit's selection circle when you're right up against them, I believe that's what makes it qualify for noclip, then you just cancel their move action when they're ontop of each other.

Here is my video on the subject. Things may or may not have changed between v480 and v488

 

[Anthony Davis]

My pathfinding report explains how to do it better, the condition is that you have to issue a moving unit (isMoving = true) another movement command that vectors across another unit's selection circle when you're right up against them, I believe that's what makes it qualify for noclip, then you just cancel their move action when they're ontop of each other.

I'm able to do that in 488. It's still pretty tricky though. I think my way is slower, but maybe more "reliable". Your way, I think especially with practice, is way faster.

They still don't seem to stack quite as tight as they are in your video. For example, I can't get their circles to overlay each other - at best it's a 50% intersection with two circles. Still bad of course.

Regardless, I hope this is fixed.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah well, I would say give Dave full credit for doing a good job and make the unit collision as it was before. I really can't see why you would need any intersection other than maybe a few pixels, if that. I can understand if it was done to offset the old code which had many problems, but now it's fine.

There are some pathfinding issues in combat, but you can't clip in combat - and those issues are AI related, and I will investigate those over the next few days.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I think I know what's happening... maybe. Once you reach your destination, I think the clipping goes off briefly for your party members, to try and get them into their formation, and again only with each other it seems. That's the only time I see them overlap with each other, and certainly not every time.

I will say this, I have not noticed any bad pathfinding while playing the game. Everyone goes where I tell them to go.


edit: just got an update, the disengagement exploits were fixed. it is still possible to get party members to overlap their selection circles.

 

[Sensuki]

Why on earth is that still possible though? Not only does it look bad, and is immersion breaking, but it allows you to abuse doorways and stuff to get most of your characters to be able to hit a melee enemy without punishment. It completely trivializes positioning and tactical gameplay.

Even without the disengagement attacks, all I have to do against a mob of melee guys in a dungeon when there's no AoE attacks is just go into stealth, dogpile in a doorway and no problem, or stack all of my guys on top of each other in a place with small pathfinding space, such as between a table and a wall - sup guise, can only be attacked by 2 people and everyone can get a hit off.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Why on earth is that still possible though? Not only does it look bad, and is immersion breaking, but it allows you to abuse doorways and stuff to get most of your characters to be able to hit a melee enemy without punishment. It completely trivializes positioning and tactical gameplay.

Even without the disengagement attacks, all I have to do against a mob of melee guys in a dungeon when there's no AoE attacks is just go into stealth, dogpile in a doorway and no problem.

With the exploit part fixed, I do not think this is a big deal at all.

I've been playing the game for real, the pathfinding seems great. So much so that it wasn't until your video and post that I went to look for it, and I could not repro it at all. I needed instructions from you and Bester on how to do it, and even then, they never completely overlap, they just intersect a bit.

Now that I look for it, I only ever see it when they are getting into formation, and again, they aren't moving like GHOSTS, they still move around each other, just sometimes now I see that their circles overlap a bit.

I don't see any immersion being broken, and they fixed your bug. I'm not sure what else you could want here?



Show me a real time game with better pathfinding. I know it isn't starcraft or the IE games. Even Starcraft 2 clips, so that can't be it.

 

[Sensuki]

:/

The clipping isn't even necessary, I can understand a few pixels but you shouldn't be able to stack your guys on top of each other. 3D unit models clipping into 3D models does not look good IMO.

I know that workers in Starcraft 2 clip through eachother when mining resources. Starcraft 2 is not as good as Starcraft 1 though Overall a much worse game, even with the convenience UI stuff.

It actually bothers me really badly, I absolutely hate it lol.

Great on the new pathfinding and fixing the engagement exploit but that unit clipping is like nails on a chalkboard to me.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I want to say something.

I truly appreciate your passion Sensuki. You find a LOT of good bugs and edge cases. So don't take anything I am saying next personally.


I have been playing this game quite a bit. Notice I said playing, not searching for bugs. ;-P

I started over with 488, I'm past the Gilded Vale heading for the Stronghold.

It's FUN!

The pathfinding is great! I haven't noticed anything weird about it at all. Combat, while I prefer turn based, it fun and CHALLENGING! Especially on Hard. It's actually a little brutal for me on hard.

I'm meeting cool NPCs, exploring beautiful maps, having cool dialogues, reading cool item descriptions, using my abilities. It's a new world, though it does have some familiar touchstones (like elves and dwarves), and it's really, really well written.

It's better than I could have hoped for when I backed it for 250$ while NOT an Obsidian employee.


I didn't even want to play the game because I didn't want to spoil anything for myself. I played it over Christmas break as a favor for Adam and I found a TON of issues. All of those issues have now been fixed, and more!


YOU and many others have helped contribute to make the game this good!

Maybe... just maybe, try playing the game for fun.

It is fun after all.






ps.
Starcraft 1 had clipping too. It also had TERRIBLE pathfinding.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't remember SC1 clipping other than air units - what units was it?

I will play the game for fun when it comes out, right now I have work to do I've still got to check all of my bugs from the last patch and update my report list, and I've got lots more (mostly minor) bugs/issues to report for this patch. No Sleep for the Watcher I guess!

And if clipping remains, I will look into the mover code to try and mod it out I guess, depending on how annoying it is.

Like someone on Something Awful said, I am a detail oriented person and sometimes small details annoy me, I can't help it.