Game News Pillars of Eternity II Fig Update #40: Multiclassing Revisited

[Infinitron]

Perkel appears to be referring to the description of the "Helwalker's Philosophy" Monk subclass in the video (at 1:16). It says that characters of that subclass will take 5% more damage for every wound.

That appears to contradict the textual description in the update, which says Helwalkers need more damage to gain wounds, with the implication that they're meant to acquire wounds more slowly. Taking more damage would make you acquire them more quickly.

This update was supposed to come out weeks ago, so it's possible that many things have changed since the video was recorded.

 

[Perkel]

+5% damage per wound

as sub class "meaningful" trait as only trait.

At higher levels it's quite easy to rack up, say, 10 wounds. That's +50% damage. That's not minor.

You forgot that part that each wound gives you debuf to your stats, stamina etc going by PoE1. wound system. Get -6-8 to strenght along with other stats and those 50% damage won't be 50% but something like 20% and coupled with crippled character.

I don't question the idea. I question the balance of it. For things that would need for your character to be really crippled to give you huge bonus 5% per wound is nowhere near what is needed to make actual decision to not heal someone or use it in tactical combat.

We all know how PoE1 was balanced. Where every debuf was some minor debuf that you had to stack with 10 other debufs to have meaningful weakening of enemy and all of those buffs would run out in like 10 seconds max effectively making most of them useless.

There is a reason why broken stat wise Original Sin gameplay is loved by dex. Because despite broken leveling etc. when you actually get into battle each ability, debuf and so are meaningful, each trait completely changes how you fight.

edit:

thank for info Infinitron. Could read that wrong or something.

Ok here is what i was talking about:

+1 might per wound and you start with 1 wound battle.
+5% damage received per wound.

Literally definition of Sawyerist design. If it would be 20%-30% per wound going to your damage deal and received it would be MEANINGFUL change.

At level above it is just MEH at best that doesn't change anything in battle because you would need to have 10 wounds to have 50% more damage (and 50% damage received) which sounds a lot but it isn't a lot actually for what you need to do to get that bonus/malus.

It doesn't change how you play character because at the end of the day just clicking left mouse button on enemy and healing dude will work just as good if not better (which was one of main reasons PoE1 combat was meh)

 

[Infinitron]

You forgot that part that each wound gives you debuf to your stats, stamina etc going by PoE1. wound system.

No no, this is a different kind of wound: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wound

You're thinking about Injuries: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Status_Effects#Injury

 

[Perkel]

You forgot that part that each wound gives you debuf to your stats, stamina etc going by PoE1. wound system.

No no, this is a different kind of wound: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wound

You're thinking about Injuries: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Status_Effects#Injury

Never player monk in PoE1 so i guess i was wrong assuming it is wound system from PoE1.

Still you get extra 5% damage received which isn't stat debuf but works just as well as one which means my point still stands.

 

[TigerKnee]

Vaguely disappointing that he's going to cop out and take the easy route, but it is funny how he has to backtrack on one more "D&D was shit and I can do better!" claim.

 

[Prime Junta]

Still you get extra 5% damage received which isn't stat debuf but works just as well as one which means my point still stands.

That's not how it works either. It just means you rack up Wounds slower.

 

[Perkel]

"D&D was shit and I can do better!" claim.

He is not wrong. He does make sense saying that there should be no shitty classes or unused skills etc. Problem though is that he takes that concept and sprinkles EVERYTHING with his MEH magic, making every ability meaningless so you need to stack several of them to feel difference in first place.

Original Sin on other hand takes this concept from back end. It makes every ability to useful in combat to point where progression system takes back seat.

It is such pain in ass to see amazing breath of different abilities stats and so on to see that everything is basically 10% of each other never making to big difference in any way bonus or mallus to change how you play in meaningful way.

Still you get extra 5% damage received which isn't stat debuf but works just as well as one which means my point still stands.

That's not how it works either. It just means you rack up Wounds slower.

That is literally how ability is spelled in video. Not 5% slower wounds generation but 5% more damage received. Maybe you confuse it with other kit ?

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

So what is the difference between this and Neverwinter Nights again!!?

 

[Prime Junta]

That is literally how ability is spelled in video. Not 5% slower wounds generation but 5% more damage received. Maybe you confuse it with other kit ?

Okay, I'll lay it out for you in detail.

Monks use Wounds to power their abilities.
They gain Wounds by taking damage.
Suppose normally they gain a Wound by taking 10 damage.
If it takes 5% more damage to gain a Wound, they will need to take 10.5 damage to gain the Wound.

In other words, they gain Wounds more slowly. Clear?

 

[Infinitron]

If it takes 5% more damage to gain a Wound, they will need to take 10.5 damage to gain the Wound.

In other words, they gain Wounds more slowly. Clear?

That's not what the video actually says though, it says they take 5% more damage. You're thinking of what the text in the update says, which as I said is the opposite of what's in the video.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's not what the video actually says though, it says they take 5% more damage. You're thinking of what the text in the update says, which as I said is the opposite of what's in the video.

Oh. Okay then, I'm confused too.

 

[Bohrain]

+5% damage per wound

as sub class "meaningful" trait as only trait.

At higher levels it's quite easy to rack up, say, 10 wounds. That's +50% damage. That's not minor.

You forgot that part that each wound gives you debuf to your stats, stamina etc going by PoE1. wound system. Get -6-8 to strenght along with other stats and those 50% damage won't be 50% but something like 20% and coupled with crippled character.

I don't question the idea. I question the balance of it. For things that would need for your character to be really crippled to give you huge bonus 5% per wound is nowhere near what is needed to make actual decision to not heal someone or use it in tactical combat.

We all know how PoE1 was balanced. Where every debuf was some minor debuf that you had to stack with 10 other debufs to have meaningful weakening of enemy and all of those buffs would run out in like 10 seconds max effectively making most of them useless.

There is a reason why broken stat wise Original Sin gameplay is loved by dex. Because despite broken leveling etc. when you actually get into battle each ability, debuf and so are meaningful, each trait completely changes how you fight.

edit:

thank for info Infinitron. Could read that wrong or something.

Ok here is what i was talking about:

+1 might per wound and you start with 1 wound battle.
+5% damage received per wound.

Literally definition of Sawyerist design. If it would be 20%-30% per wound going to your damage deal and received it would be MEANINGFUL change.

At level above it is just MEH at best that doesn't change anything in battle because you would need to have 10 wounds to have 50% more damage (and 50% damage received) which sounds a lot but it isn't a lot actually for what you need to do to get that bonus/malus.

It doesn't change how you play character because at the end of the day just clicking left mouse button on enemy and healing dude will work just as good if not better (which was one of main reasons PoE1 combat was meh)

People can say what they want about DotA, but I'm personally a fan of Icefrog's balancing policy, as in making everything broken in a unique way.
Then there's Sawyer who aims to make everything viable, but by doing so is deathly afraid of giving anything unique utility wise, so the result is that everything sort of works but also feels bland.

 

[Sentinel]

People can say what they want about DotA, but I'm personally a fan of Icefrog's balancing policy, as in making everything broken in a unique way.
Then there's Sawyer who aims to make everything viable, but by doing so is deathly afraid of giving anything unique utility wise, so the result is that everything sort of works but also feels bland.

I think I've mentioned it in the past in a PoE thread too. IceFrog's way is kind of unique in that if there is something OP, the nerf hammer does not tend to hit the character's strong points heavily, the blow is instead dealt on its weaknesses, so that these get bigger and more exploitable, but the strengths are roughly the same. I'm a big fan of his style.

 

[FreeKaner]

Then there's Sawyer who aims to make everything viable, but by doing so is deathly afraid of giving anything unique utility wise, so the result is that everything sort of works but also feels bland.

Icefrog aims to make everything viable too, plus his balancing style is very specific to a particular type of multiplayer game where both sides are more or less supposed to be equivalent.

 

[felipepepe]

That's not what the video actually says though, it says they take 5% more damage. You're thinking of what the text in the update says, which as I said is the opposite of what's in the video.

Oh. Okay then, I'm confused too.

 

[Iznaliu]

That's not what the video actually says though, it says they take 5% more damage. You're thinking of what the text in the update says, which as I said is the opposite of what's in the video.

Oh. Okay then, I'm confused too.

I wonder if Sawyer's confusion abilities can be used for fun and profit?

 

[YES!]

Looks interesting. I since PoE was very good about specific control I feel safe playing these games on Ironman to start, as I did with Tyranny. I actually completed Tyranny completely twice. Actually like 2.3 times since when was doing my second playthrough where I was trying to go full goodguy I somehow messed it up after the meeting with the two horde leaders that closed off me being able to side with the natives. That's the bad part of ironman, you can't undo little things or mess ups that really screw you. But that's all the fun of it too, like with gambling.

 

[Iznaliu]

But that's all the fun of it too, like with gambling.

Do you gamble, Roqua?

 

[YES!]

But that's all the fun of it too, like with gambling.

Do you gamble, Roqua?

How many fucking times do I have to beg you kids to leave me alone? Please, please, for the love of all that is Holy, just your fucking kid mouth and go help your mother with the dishes.

 

[Iznaliu]

How many fucking times do I have to beg you kids to leave me alone?

Stop acting like you need attention if you don't want it.

 

[Shevek]

2e... 3e... They should look at Shadow of the Demon Lord multiclassing. Now that game does multiclassing right. Hell, even 5e archetypes would be a better way to go as far a mc goes.

Still, if it's between 2e and 3e mc, they made the right choice with 2e. 3e mc was a clusterfuck.

 

[Iznaliu]

2e... 3e... They should look at Shadow of the Demon Lord multiclassing. Now that game does multiclassing right. Hell, even 5e archetypes would be a better way to go as far a mc goes.

I don't think 5e archetypes are anything like multiclassing.