Game News Pillars of Eternity Kickstarter Update #71: The Heavy Hitters: Rogues and Rangers

[hiver]

Of course, the rogue/comando being a light unit, with weak defense will make you actively keeping it out of bigger trouble. Imagine striking a Monk, getting some crit - which makes him take your head off. (-edit- or well, just crits your rogue back, in some nasty way) Since Wounds - power for Monks.
While Ciphers would funnel your own soul energy against you.


If they make combat encounters themselves really, really well... all that might even require waking up some smarts from long decline slumber, to get through. Not just spamming attacks.
I mean, potentially. Hopefully.

 

[Johannes]

Yeah, what really matters in the end is how well they get encounter design. That's the real lesson to be had from IE games.

 

[Excidium]

And the combat engine too. The thing that makes me prefer turn-based over real-time is that turn-based is virtually impossible to fuck up in technical terms, but RTwP requires the game to be smooth and responsive and have good feedback, otherwise you end up with something like NWN2. Of course, this being Unity + Kickstarter + Obsidian leaves me p. worried about all that. All systems and encounter design in the world don't matter if the combat itself feels awful.

 

[Murk]

man, people nitpick on the weirdest shit.

I'm like about 60-70% optimistic about this game but I can't be bothered to nitpick on whether a sneak attack stays true to whatever arbitrary definition of 'sneak' i can impose on it

 

[cherry blossom]

The 'adra' is a lore detail, one that sounds like a patchwork. Considering they have trouble accounting for it just in those screens, it's probable it won't be accounted for properly in the rest of the game.

Are you talking about Adra itself or the images? It's definitelly accounted for in those images (though of course they aren't so well done currently), and lore/quest wize Josh has been talking about Adra since the beginning of the kickstarter, so it seems like it would come up in quests/etc.

I just see people whining for...no reason i can discern?

It's just a stupid and poorly thought out piece of design work. REAL arches are pretty strong and tend to survive when the rest of the structure have long become rubble a hundreds of years ago. Therefore it's only reasonable to expect that a structure made with magical goo would survive even better.

Also remember that this exact same poor design work is present in Alpha Popamole as well and there is magical goo bullshit excuse for it to be in there. It's just general illiteracy and poor taste, thinking shit looks cool like that. Well, it does not. It looks plain stupid.

 

[Excidium]

If you fags weren't bothered about arbitrary resting locations and magical teleporting inventory then shut up about the goddamn fantasy cement.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Adra gon' adra

 

[Goegoff]

The 'adra' is a lore detail, one that sounds like a patchwork. Considering they have trouble accounting for it just in those screens, it's probable it won't be accounted for properly in the rest of the game.

Are you talking about Adra itself or the images? It's definitelly accounted for in those images (though of course they aren't so well done currently), and lore/quest wize Josh has been talking about Adra since the beginning of the kickstarter, so it seems like it would come up in quests/etc.

I just see people whining for...no reason i can discern?

It's just a stupid and poorly thought out piece of design work. REAL arches are pretty strong and tend to survive when the rest of the structure have long become rubble a hundreds of years ago. Therefore it's only reasonable to expect that a structure made with magical goo would survive even better.

Also remember that this exact same poor design work is present in Alpha Popamole as well and there is magical goo bullshit excuse for it to be in there. It's just general illiteracy and poor taste, thinking shit looks cool like that. Well, it does not. It looks plain stupid.

I better not tell You then, that there's a floating rock in the middle of the left edge of the screen.

 

[roshan]

I like that every class will have a number of unique abilities, melee classes mostly reduced to auto-attacking was the biggest flaw of IE games for me.

I doubt it will be that rigid in the actual game but still if certain classes don't excel in certain roles compared to others then what's the point of having classes in the first place? Differences between ranger, fighter and paladin in IE games were mostly in flavour (though kits and some mods help in that regard), why not make them play more differently?

What matters more to be is to be able to build different types of characters from the same base classes. In 3E, the "genericness" of the classes actually allowed you to conceptualize the characters differently, plus you could mix and match the classes in almost any order and proportion - essentially there were thousands of possible character builds.

In PE every Ranger will be an animal freak, and every Rogue will be DPS guy. No different concepts, no multiclassing, no mixing and matching.

 

[Captain Crusade]

He means the combat mechanics are, to his mind, MMORPGish, I guess.

Can't quite agree but I see where he is coming from: the D&D 4th Ed. angle

Which incidentally is the less shitty D&D edition if you're searching for tactical combats.

It is, however it is designed for TB combat. Implemented in RTwP will likely cause many positive aspects of the rules to be glossed over.

Blackguards has proven a TB isometric with tactical combat can sell well. And Blackguards was solely combat, with much less class/race/power customization, and did not have a big name studio behind it.

 

[Infinitron]

In 3E, the "genericness" of the classes actually allowed you to conceptualize the characters differently

 

[hiver]

adra is slowly dissolving with time, the parts closer to earth dissipate slower.

/problem.

 

[DeepOcean]

Jesus, is this an Obsessive Architects Anonymous group meeting?

 

[hiver]

it just ended. still, there really could be less weirdly broken arches in the whole game.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Don't like most of the Rogue abilities shown.

The conditional, "win-more" types of moves that are used when the party/character is already ahead in the encounter don't sound good. Congrats, you've disabled an enemy and caused them to suffer significant combat impairment as a result of the debilitation(s)...now you can use an ability that hits them even harder! Yeah, the IE games were pretty harsh with auto-hits to stunned/sleeped characters*, but I don't think this a feature most players were really wed to. Debilitations are already pretty good and have a hefty impact on a given unit's combat effectiveness...making them die even easier seems like overkill. Makes the "swing factor" of debilitating attacks even larger...not necessarily a good thing.

The attack that can be used when the enemy is at half-health is even sillier...it's completely irrelevant in the early stages of combat and does nothing if you are behind in battle. Enemies unscathed and beating you down? That ability is useless in that scenario, as well as many other instances that could potentially come into play. State-specific moves, in sufficient quantity and power, also lead to encounters that "play themselves", so to say.

Because Eternity, like many RPGs, will likely be a symmetrical system, "win more" techniques could be exceedingly frustrating to play against. An unlucky defense roll against a debilitating attack and now a player's character is threatened by much higher stamina/health loss potential.

Emphasis on positioning and movement skills are discouraging as well, given that the game is RTwP. The IE games worked in RTwP because positioning matters very little in D&D, even less so at mid-to-high levels. Really, the choice of RTwP as a system seems at odds with most of Sawyer's design ideas. It's like Obsidian pitched a spiritual successor to the IE games, but handed the reins to a guy that doesn't like the foundational mechanics of said games (who doesn't shy away from voicing these opinions) and would prefer to make a game more influenced by 4E and his own houserules. Oh...and with stealth mechanics that sound like a trainwreck waiting to happen.

*To say nothing of other D&D games implementation of coup de graces. Those could be brutal and were (availability assumed) the correct play most of the time. Never really liked that implementation.

 

[Kz3r0]

Jesus, is this an Obsessive Architects Anonymous group meeting?

Arch Pee Gee Codex

PS
Roman Magic, best magic

 

[hiver]

Don't like most of the Rogue abilities shown.

The conditional, "win-more" types of moves that are used when the party/character is already ahead in the encounter don't sound good. Congrats, you've disabled an enemy and caused them to suffer significant combat impairment as a result of the debilitation(s)...now you can use an ability that hits them even harder! Yeah, the IE games were pretty harsh with auto-hits to stunned/sleeped characters*, but I don't think this a feature most players were really wed to. Debilitations are already pretty good and have a hefty impact on a given unit's combat effectiveness...making them die even easier seems like overkill. Makes the "swing factor" of debilitating attacks even larger...not necessarily a good thing.

Oh its an overkill. in the system of stamina - health as it is?

The attack that can be used when the enemy is at half-health is even sillier...it's completely irrelevant in the early stages of combat and does nothing if you are behind in battle. Enemies unscathed and beating you down? That ability is useless in that scenario, as well as many other instances that could potentially come into play.

Oh so its not an overkill?

which one is it?

State-specific moves, in sufficient quantity and power, also lead to encounters that "play themselves", so to say.

Deep.

Because Eternity, like many RPGs, will likely be a symmetrical system, "win more" techniques could be exceedingly frustrating to play against. An unlucky defense roll against a debilitating attack and now a player's character is threatened by much higher stamina/health loss potential.

Emphasis on positioning and movement skills are discouraging as well, given that the game is RTwP.

The IE games worked in RTwP because positioning matters very little in D&D, even less so at mid-to-high levels. Really, the choice of RTwP as a system seems at odds with most of Sawyer's design ideas. It's like Obsidian pitched a spiritual successor to the IE games, but handed the reins to a guy that doesn't like the foundational mechanics of said games (who doesn't shy away from voicing these opinions) and would prefer to make a game more influenced by 4E and his own houserules. Oh...and with stealth mechanics that sound like a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Fascinating how some people on codex are living proofs of several Socrates thesis.
I accidentally looked over this post... but the quotient of oxymorons and absolutely nonsensical crap and bullshit was so astounding i had to stop and make my appreciation clear.

 

[Apexeon]

If you fags weren't bothered about arbitrary resting locations and magical teleporting inventory then shut up about the goddamn fantasy cement.

I want some magic cement for my art crew here to harden the **** up.
I can't make any magical floating arches yet. I am stuck with glowing lights everywhere .

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you fags weren't bothered about arbitrary resting locations and magical teleporting inventory then shut up about the goddamn fantasy cement.

What now?
I definitely was (for real), but I was told that it's all good man cause I'm a degenerate and Sawyer is helping me be better and it's MACHENICS man! Now I see it man.

 

[Excidium]

It's a funny thing.

Something about the game systems is criticized for being lazy and making no sense "ITZ JUST GAME MAN"
Something about the art is criticized for being lazy and making no sense "Uuuh I mean yeah, b-but you see, *bunch of lore excuses made up on the spot*"

I mean at lesat pick one position and be consistent.

 

[WetWorks]

Every screenshot i see, makes me want this game more. I'm getting a heavy BG atmosphere from them.

 

[Dr Schultz]

He means the combat mechanics are, to his mind, MMORPGish, I guess.

Can't quite agree but I see where he is coming from: the D&D 4th Ed. angle

Which incidentally is the less shitty D&D edition if you're searching for tactical combats.

It is, however it is designed for TB combat. Implemented in RTwP will likely cause many positive aspects of the rules to be glossed over.

Blackguards has proven a TB isometric with tactical combat can sell well. And Blackguards was solely combat, with much less class/race/power customization, and did not have a big name studio behind it.

I'm the biggest TB freak you'll ever know, man. There's no need to point out how turns would be better in this scenario.

That being said, the "oh my God, this is a single player MMO" grumble is silly. PoE is just a RTwP RPG that takes inspiration from D&D 4th ED, which in my book is definitely better than a 3rd ED alternative (leaving alone the AD&D crap).

It's a funny thing.

Something about the game systems is criticized for being lazy and making no sense "ITZ JUST GAME MAN"
Something about the art is criticized for being lazy and making no sense "Uuuh I mean yeah, b-but you see, *bunch of lore excuses made up on the spot*"

I mean at lesat pick one position and be consistent.

Maybe it's because a good share of the commonly accepted CRPG conventions (turns, HP multiplication, character building, healing, etc.) makes no sense but still works great as game mechanic?

 

[Excidium]

Seems like you don't understand what is an abstraction.

 

[Dr Schultz]

Seems like you don't understand what is an abstraction.

Nope, seems like you're arbitrarily distinguishing between abstractions and lazy design features. Some abstractions are good because... well simply because you are used to them. Other abstractions are gamey crap because you don't like them, or because they are not canonical.

 

[nihil]

What if the force came from beneath, from the stairway shaft?

that would be a small as shit dragon

I think he might be talking about an earthquake. A major cause of ancient building-ruination.

Actually, I meant an explosion in the dungeon beneath, or maybe a magical projectile shooting up. My point was a force from below could break an arch and still leave the pillars standing.

I don't care that much, though. I can tolerate some nonsensical ruins as long as the more important parts of the game are good.