Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Popiel]

I wonder if you are ever going to reply to me, village faith boy ay. Finding quoting actual theology hard?

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm not, because it's not about quoting a passage and being done with it (you should know this), it's more complicated than that and it's not suitable for an off-topic post.

 

[Popiel]

Well, so there it goes.

You are welcome to take this discussion away from here, if that's what stopping you from reply...

 

[Delterius]

No, they don't KNOW it in real life, good try though :p

As I said, secularized society. This is not an accusation, just a fact of life. You lack the faculties to understand what you are talking about.

you are directed by NPCs

Unlike every other CRPG ever.

(the dwarf woman is a particular ass-pull)

Would it be better if a random innkeeper told you to go talk to the well known Watcher with a keep in the woods?

there is no logical progression of events, being told to go find them is simply errand running, not plot progression.

The transition into Act 1, the beginning of the game, is triggered by a generic motive derived from your PC's background. Not the best, but good enough. Whatever reason you have for going towards Gilded Vale, it leads into being at Cliant Lis at the worst possible time. Call to Adventure yadda yadda.

The transition to Act 1.5 is triggered by a new development of the PC. You become a Watcher and draw the attention of a nearby ghost. She was an Animancer and knows of such things. Because of it she tells you to talk to another well known Watcher who even owns a keep.

The transition to Act 2 is triggered when meeting Maerwald. At this point you witness what awaits you a few years down the line. You've gained knowledge and power but you'll be hounded by visions of past incarnations and will lose all sense of identity. Just so, Maerwald knows what's ahead of you but is unable to parse anything. Your only clue is the Leaden Key and Defiance Bay.

The transition to Act 3 is triggered when Lady Webb tricks Thaos into revealing his plans and leaving the means of your discovery. She was his apprentice and acolyte at one point so she knows how he acts. She's also a cipher, so she knows what to do to ensure you can see into her final moments.

The transition to Act 4 happens after you've bargained with the gods for their aid and jumps into the pit.

Starting from Act 3 you already know what to do. You know about the Leaden Key and you know about Thaos. You don't already know their motives, but you know they are responsible for your curse. You don't know wether they can actually solve your problems but they are the only clue anyway. There can be more motives for people's own PCs to chase Thaos. Most just like to play the big damn hero. But the primary motivation is still there and all you need is directions, first with Lady Webb and then with the tribesmen. What's driving the story at that point is your own purposes, not those of any NPC.

 

[bminorkey]

The big issue being raised here seems to be the "flat abundance" of PoE's plot. There are so many plots and subplots and lore lectures that the soup starts to smell funny. It's a big and complex two-dimensional canvas - too much is shown, too little is given depth.

This is a diagnosis of the symptom but not the disease. Fleshing out the main plot - your relationship with Thaos - would've done nothing for the game, because Thaos as a character is extremely boring and has absolutely no personality. What would've saved PoE's writing - a *party-based RPG* - are better characters, and especially, better companions and better antagonists. Characters that you can adore or hate or relate to and, in the process of doing so, come to care about the world.

Focusing on companions: PoE's companions are flat. They're more like brainless followers than companions. They don't show weakness or contradictions or bravery or anger. In fact the only emotions they are capable of expressing are different shades of "stoic" and "snarky". They react to everything you do with apathy or cautious enthusiasm. They don't have their own opinions or, on the rare occasion that they do, disregarding these opinions has absolutely no cost.

This is *such* a missed opportunity. The purpose of companions is to take the abstract ideas which the story is trying to present and try to make them concrete and personal. If the game made me actually care for say, Eder, I would've found it easier to care about the fate of Dyrwood too. Kana might've made me interested in the story of Od Nua. Pallegina in the plight of the godlikes. As it stands, the story of PoE is the story of pretty ideas and pretty abstractions that, because they have no *grounding*, are for the most part forgettable. The same can be said of its combat system.

 

[Lacrymas]

You throw quite a few accusations at me, I actually do understand what I am talking about, *you* don't understand what I am talking about, different things :p

It wouldn't be better for anyone to tell you anything, YOU should find it on your own. Otherwise it's just carrot on a stick chase, with NPCs conveniently always having the right information to give you to direct you anywhere. The dwarf just happens to be in Gilden Vale, just happens to be a ghost, who happens to be an animancer, who happens to know about Maerwald (I don't think anyone else mentions him?). Maerwald turns out to be a dead end, but conveniently gives you this keep. I don't actually remember who tells you about the Leaden Key, or did they attack you or something? Then Lady Webb conveniently does everything for you to get him to reveal himself. How is Lady Webb connected to the Watcher thing again? How is the Leaden Key connected to that too, actually? Then the gods thing happens, which is completely unrelated to the Watcher business.

The "plot" is actually this: You stumble upon being a watcher -> convenient dwarf tells you everything you need to know and sends you to Maerwald -> He knows nothing, but gives you a keep -> You find out about the Leaden Key (how? I honestly don't remember) -> You go to Defiance Bay and do things for the factions you have no reason to care about, so you can be a representative at the court? Which talks about animancy? When did that happen? Aren't you supposed to be finding out about the organization? -> Thaos kills the duke for no particular reason, thus revealing himself. Lady Webb happens and shows you her last moments, they conveniently being with Thaos -> You go to Twin Elms and work for the gods (???) so they can give you a slow-fall to jump into the pit (???) -> You find Iovara who says the gods are constructed (??? what happened to the Watcher thing again?) and then Thaos reveals his grand plans about the artificial gods you just learned about, you conveniently stop the Hollowborn crisis which is a forgotten point at this stage, then you make an irrelevant choice - > Game over, pat yourself in the back for being such an awesome writer.

Even your own descriptions just jump to irrelevant to each other things. The Leaden Key clue is not connected to Maerwald, then Thaos and Lady Webb are not connected to the Leaden Key (I know he is their leader, but it's Lady Webb's info that you get), then you bargain with the gods, who also have nothing to do with Thaos (until the last minute) and you jump into a pit. It's a string of serendipities that the PC knows what to do all the time. It seems as if this isn't the PCs story at all, you never actually DO anything, you just witness it, people tell you what to do and stuff happens. I have to go through the game again and take detailed notes how it doesn't make sense even in context. If you think I'm missing something then we can continue after I've played the game again and being more ready for it.

 

[Delterius]

convenient dwarf tells

Convenient, yes. Unjustified? No. The dwarf has more than enough backstory to justify her presence and she doesn't do anything that another supporting character couldn't do. She's telling you to talk to a former adventurer who owns a keep not too far from the village. Even the innkeeper or the village idiot could have mentioned it. But instead of something generic your medium powers lead you to a ghost. What an absurd thing to do.

He knows nothing, but gives you a keep

He tells you about the Leaden Key.

You find out about the Leaden Key (how? I honestly don't remember)

I can see that.

You go to Defiance Bay and do things for the factions you have no reason to care about, so you can be a representative at the court? Which talks about animancy? When did that happen? Aren't you supposed to be finding out about the organization?

After investigating the Woedica Temple and/or talking to Lady Webb you discover the Leaden Key has an interest in the court. And therefore so do you.

Thaos kills the duke for no particular reason, thus revealing himself.

He wants Defiance Bay to go up in flames due to Animancy, not merely outlaw it for a while and certainly not the opposite.

Lady Webb happens and shows you her last moments, they conveniently being with Thaos

Well, she's the one who's been onto him so far. Odds were he was going to kill her. A better question is why he didn't kill you earlier, but that's not the kind of plot hole someone discovers out of not really knowing what they are talking about.

You go to Twin Elms and work for the gods (???) so they can give you a slow-fall to jump into the pit (???)

The pit that lets you reach Thaos. You need the favor of at least one god to survive it.

You find Iovara who says the gods are constructed (??? what happened to the Watcher thing again?)

What does one thing have to do with the other?

then you make an irrelevant choice

I suppose about as relevant as any other choice that lead to changes in ending slides, so MotB sucks too.

The Leaden Key clue is not connected to Maerwald

Maerwald is the one who tells you about the Leaden Key. Honestly not remembering things isn't an excuse when criticizing a plotline.

then Thaos and Lady Webb are not connected to the Leaden Key (I know he is their leader, but it's Lady Webb's info that you get)

Webb was Thaos' subordinate. Thaos is the leader of the Leaden Key. Can you connect these dots?

then you bargain with the gods, who also have nothing to do with Thaos (until the last minute)

Aside from the guy leading a cult that worships Woedica, what happens is that Thaos goes into an ancient temple and seals the way. It was suggested that you ask the gods for help in reaching him.

It's a string of serendipities that the PC knows what to do all the time. It seems as if this isn't the PCs story at all, you never actually DO anything, you just witness it, people tell you what to do and stuff happens.

That the PC isn't at the helm is a good criticism of many CRPGs. Including writing darlings such as MotB and Bloodlines. But to say that you don't do anything is disingenius at best.

If you think I'm missing something

Yes.

 

[Lacrymas]

Ok, fine, I wouldn't say it's logical, but a lot of people tell you what is happening and what to do next, so I guess that's a string of connected events? Good job, writers, you got me there (not sarcasm).

 

[Turjan]

Ok, fine, I wouldn't say it's logical, but a lot of people tell you what is happening and what to do next, so I guess that's a string of connected events? Good job, writers, you got me there (not sarcasm).

In this regard, the writing is closer to Icewind Dale, where you are also sent from one location to the next.

But yeah, Maerwald tells you about the Leaden Key and the Temple of Woedica. Also, the reason why Thaos kills the duke is spelled out and not a mystery.

 

[Delterius]

Ok, fine, I wouldn't say it's logical, but a lot of people tell you what is happening and what to do next, so I guess that's a string of connected events? Good job, writers, you got me there (not sarcasm).

I agree with you. An RPG with questgivers as plot hooks? Why, I never. That Gorion guy? An asspull. The Rashemi Witches? Finding a bunch of Wychlaran in a rashemi town is way too convenient. Caius Cossades? Talk about wikipedia dialogue. If only Pillars was more creative we could, I don't know, advance the plot using... lost NPC diaries or something.

 

[Barnabas]

Delterius

 

[Delterius]

Is that good or bad.

 

[Lacrymas]

I agree with you. An RPG with questgivers as plot hooks? Why, I never. That Gorion guy? An asspull. The Rashemi Witches? Finding a bunch of Wychlaran in a rashemi town is way too convenient. Caius Cossades? Talk about wikipedia dialogue. If only Pillars was more creative we could, I don't know, advance the plot using... lost NPC diaries or something.

Still, I'm happy that you could be made aware of the game's most basic plot points.

Having shitty writing in previous RPGs doesn't excuse having shitty writing after that :p Actually, I recently replayed BG1 and was thinking how much of an ass-pull Gorion is, all they had to do is have you go to Gorion after you are attacked by the two assassins in Candlekeep. After that, Nashkel comes out of nowhere, you just decide to go there because you have nothing better to do, etc. The Rashemi witches go after you because they sense magic in the theater and that's their job, what is the inconsistency there? It's like you tripping the alarm while burglarizing a home and being surprised that the police show up. I don't have any opinion on Caius, haven't played Morrowind enough to.

 

[Delterius]

The Rashemi witches go after you because they sense magic in the theater and that's their job, what is the inconsistency there?

your medium powers lead you to a ghost.

What's the inconsistency there?

 

[Lacrymas]

I never said it's an inconsistency, I said that she's conveniently there, conveniently an animancer, conveniently knows about Maerwald (when nobody else mentions him?) and conveniently knows where he is. That's why she's an ass-pull. Instead of, oh, I don't know, using your new-found powers to find her. You actively using them, not her passively showing up in your dream. That way it might not be such random chance that she knows about Maerwald, because you actively seek a person who knows what's up. I still wouldn't use her at all, but that's the easiest solution.

 

[Delterius]

I said that she's conveniently there, conveniently an animancer, conveniently knows about Maerwald (when nobody else mentions him?) and conveniently knows where he is.

She's in Gilded Vale because the local lord hires Animancers. She's dead because she failed to do what was asked of her. She mentioned Maerwald, just as Éder does, because as an Animancer she's more likely to know about Watchers. She knows where he is because the guy was a somewhat famous adventurer himself who came to own a nearby castle and its surrounding land.

 

[Lacrymas]

Fine.

 

[Delterius]

Ok.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Cheezcake

 

[Tigranes]

including the weird and sort of forced Holy Trinity we end up with as the institutional orthodox.

You should stick to quasi-erudite game commentary, because that’s where your obvious strengths lie. Definitely not in commenting development of Christian doctrines. Trinity dogma is the only logical way to explain how God can be singular and yet in scriptures that in the end were chosen as orthodox there are three different persons ascribed with divine attributes – the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit. Henceforth Trinity is not weird nor forced, it’s the only logical conclusion if you want to respect strict monotheism like most of early Christians did – some of them didn’t, but they are beside the point. It’s obviously not easily comprehensible – attempts at comprehending Trinity led to schism between Latin (nowadays Roman Catholicism and its minions) and Eastern Christianities (nowadays plethora of Chalcedonian Churches not in connection with Rome), so you know how it goes.

It most certainly is not my area of expertise, and so I've been limiting my comments to the most superficial level, so I take corrections gladly. For what it's worth, though, that is pretty much what I meant (and I accept my description was misleading).

Anyway, this mini-arc of the thread seems to have exhausted main points of relevance...

 

[FreeKaner]

I think companions had personality but they lacked depth and they had too much info-dump and prose and not enough actual dialogue regarding events and circumstances when it came to their conversations.

 

[Fry]

 

[4249]

Sooo, are the expansions separate enough that the base game can be played without them or should they be acquired before starting?

 

[Barnabas]

You can play them whenever you want (start level 7/8). It's a separate story. If you buy them though you can have a higher level cap. So if you can't beat the master below (like I did) at level 12 max you can go back at level 16 with the extra experience if you have both expansions.

Like I said I didn't need the extra levels to beat the master, I just did it.
-the one

 

[Sizzle]

Thinking about Thaos as an antagonist, a few simple changes to the story could have made him a much more effective character and enemy - if it was established that, in one way or another, you come across him in every incarnation, usually without even being aware of why you are opposing him.

The game (weakly) tried to hint at this, but nothing much came out of it.

But, if they built the story around the fact that this is the first time you've been awakened as a Watcher, and have a real fighting chance to stop him because of that - it would have made the story more personal. Not to mention, tying into Planescape: Torment.

The final fight would have also been far more interesting if this was the case (again - it could have mirrored the final confrontation with the Transcendent One), you're fighting in a literal soul prison (so, win or lose, this will be your final fight), you have mastered your abilities, gathered allies, and can finally break the cycle.