Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Riddler]

I found the following post from Bubbles on the obisidian forums regarding race/class reactivity and thought to post it here if anyone else is considering a new run.

Bubbles found the following number of intances of character reactivity:
Barbarian: 3
Chanter: 2
Cipher: 17
Druid: 1
Fighter: 5
Monk: 2
Paladin: 1 + Order
Priest: 6 (3 unique - without equivalent "Clergyman" background check) + Deity
Ranger: 3
Rogue: 3
Wizard: 4

Kind Wayfarers: 7
Bleak Walkers: 6
Shieldbearers: 3
Goldpact: 2
Darcozzi: 3

Berath: 3
Skaen: 7
Magran: 6
Wael: 5
Eothas: 7

Aristocrat: 8
Artist: 4
Clergyman: 7 (4 unique)
Colonist: 9
Dissident: 6
Drifter: 4
Explorer: 9
Hunter: 10
Laborer: 8
Mercenary: 8
Merchant: 11
Mystic: 5
Philosopher: 11
Raider: 11
Scholar: 13
Scientist: 6
Slave: 7

Aedyr: 12 (5 of them with Aloth)
Deadfire: 9
Ixamitl Plains: 1
Old Vailia: 4
Rauatai: 0
The Living Lands: 9
White That Wends: 14

Aumaua: 7
Coastal Aumaua: 1

Dwarf: 0
Boreal Dwarf: 1

Elf: 1
Snow Elf: 7 (3 with Glaswal)

Godlike: 10
Fire Godlike: 4
Nature Godlike: 2
Moon Godlike: 2
Death Godlike: 3

Human: 1

Orlan: 14 (5 with Captain Aldmar)
Hearth Orlan: 1
Wild Orlan: 1

Male: 7
Female: 12

 

[2house2fly]

By the way why did the Engwithians create the gods and give them free will to do whatever crazy shit they desired? Maybe I missed or forgot this and this was explained in PoE, but it's been bugging me.

If they had just made obedient powerful robot-like creatures there would be no need for shit like the Godhammer or fighting over which god oversees what aspect of the world and who should be on top and who should be at the bottom.

Maybe they did, but over time the gods broke their programming

I found the following post from Bubbles on the obisidian forums regarding race/class reactivity and thought to post it here if anyone else is considering a new run.

Bubbles found the following number of intances of character reactivity:
Barbarian: 3
Chanter: 2
Cipher: 17
Druid: 1
Fighter: 5
Monk: 2
Paladin: 1 + Order
Priest: 6 (3 unique - without equivalent "Clergyman" background check) + Deity
Ranger: 3
Rogue: 3
Wizard: 4

Kind Wayfarers: 7
Bleak Walkers: 6
Shieldbearers: 3
Goldpact: 2
Darcozzi: 3

Berath: 3
Skaen: 7
Magran: 6
Wael: 5
Eothas: 7

Aristocrat: 8
Artist: 4
Clergyman: 7 (4 unique)
Colonist: 9
Dissident: 6
Drifter: 4
Explorer: 9
Hunter: 10
Laborer: 8
Mercenary: 8
Merchant: 11
Mystic: 5
Philosopher: 11
Raider: 11
Scholar: 13
Scientist: 6
Slave: 7

Aedyr: 12 (5 of them with Aloth)
Deadfire: 9
Ixamitl Plains: 1
Old Vailia: 4
Rauatai: 0
The Living Lands: 9
White That Wends: 14

Aumaua: 7
Coastal Aumaua: 1

Dwarf: 0
Boreal Dwarf: 1

Elf: 1
Snow Elf: 7 (3 with Glaswal)

Godlike: 10
Fire Godlike: 4
Nature Godlike: 2
Moon Godlike: 2
Death Godlike: 3

Human: 1

Orlan: 14 (5 with Captain Aldmar)
Hearth Orlan: 1
Wild Orlan: 1

Male: 7
Female: 12

This is without the expansion, btw. If anyone did one of these for the expansion I'd love to see it.

 

[Projas]

By the way why did the Engwithians create the gods and give them free will to do whatever crazy shit they desired? Maybe I missed or forgot this and this was explained in PoE, but it's been bugging me.

If they had just made obedient powerful robot-like creatures there would be no need for shit like the Godhammer or fighting over which god oversees what aspect of the world and who should be on top and who should be at the bottom.

They wanted to give other cultures something to worship to replace their barbaric religions. Creating an obedient superpowerful robot is great if you want to take over the world, but they wanted to make something that would outlast them.

 

[Sizzle]

By the way why did the Engwithians create the gods and give them free will to do whatever crazy shit they desired? Maybe I missed or forgot this and this was explained in PoE, but it's been bugging me.

If they had just made obedient powerful robot-like creatures there would be no need for shit like the Godhammer or fighting over which god oversees what aspect of the world and who should be on top and who should be at the bottom.

Maybe they did, but over time the gods broke their programming

It's been hinted several times in the game that they simply cannot go against their own personalities (which could be merely sophisticated A.I. routines):

Spoiler

In TWM, Ondra had to nuke the Engwithians with a small moon, and Abydon had to protect them. They were both aware of this - as well as how the other one would react - but could not go against their personalities/portfolios/programming.

You even win some arguments with them during their quests in Act III by pointing out that your actions were in accordance with their dogma. Once they realize that, they back off and grant you their favor.

 

[Jarpie]

I found the following post from Bubbles on the obisidian forums regarding race/class reactivity and thought to post it here if anyone else is considering a new run.

Bubbles found the following number of intances of character reactivity:
Barbarian: 3
Chanter: 2
Cipher: 17
Druid: 1
Fighter: 5
Monk: 2
Paladin: 1 + Order
Priest: 6 (3 unique - without equivalent "Clergyman" background check) + Deity
Ranger: 3
Rogue: 3
Wizard: 4

Kind Wayfarers: 7
Bleak Walkers: 6
Shieldbearers: 3
Goldpact: 2
Darcozzi: 3

Berath: 3
Skaen: 7
Magran: 6
Wael: 5
Eothas: 7

Aristocrat: 8
Artist: 4
Clergyman: 7 (4 unique)
Colonist: 9
Dissident: 6
Drifter: 4
Explorer: 9
Hunter: 10
Laborer: 8
Mercenary: 8
Merchant: 11
Mystic: 5
Philosopher: 11
Raider: 11
Scholar: 13
Scientist: 6
Slave: 7

Aedyr: 12 (5 of them with Aloth)
Deadfire: 9
Ixamitl Plains: 1
Old Vailia: 4
Rauatai: 0
The Living Lands: 9
White That Wends: 14

Aumaua: 7
Coastal Aumaua: 1

Dwarf: 0
Boreal Dwarf: 1

Elf: 1
Snow Elf: 7 (3 with Glaswal)

Godlike: 10
Fire Godlike: 4
Nature Godlike: 2
Moon Godlike: 2
Death Godlike: 3

Human: 1

Orlan: 14 (5 with Captain Aldmar)
Hearth Orlan: 1
Wild Orlan: 1

Male: 7
Female: 12

One of the things which made me to go WTF was the Cinders of Faith quest where you deal with the Magran priestess.

Spoiler

I played as the priest of Magran, and the quest didn't let me react to it any specific way to the normal, nor the NPC didn't react. I would've imagined that'd been perfect place for Magran specific stuff.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Regarding race, if you want a reduced challenge, I think moon godlike is the cheesiest, because of its healing abilities. You will also most probably get some unique stuff in White March in quests dealing with Ondra.

The most serious change since 1.0 is the change to Dexterity and Resolve (from what I recall). Check the gamepedia wiki for the changes.

I think Paladins get a bit more reactivity than other classes, because of the Paladin orders. Can't think of any class particularly standing out though, just choose one and roleplay the character.

Edit: yeah, I guess priests will get a lot of reactivity too.

Thanks for the answer and the suggestions!

So no race or class really sticks out reactivity-wise? (Heard the reaction to being a priest of Eothas was underwhelming for example)

Regarding gameplay changes, I was under the assumption that there had been substantial changes, were I wrong or do the changes simply not affect gameplay choices in any major way (beyond Dex and resolve?).

I'm trying to think of big gameplay changes, but I just finished the game after a long pause and my memory of what was added when is not so good. One thing I would highlight is the AI, it's been improved, both for enemy and for companions. It's more difficult to kite enemies. Also, in the expansions' areas the encounters don't allow for doorway blocking all that much, I'd say dungeon design is improved in TWM. The stronghold is substantially improved - it has its own quest now. There are also immunities to afflictions (I've forgotten which patch they were added with), which opens up opportunities to hard-counter some enemies - for example cast a priest spell to give you immunity to Terrified when fighting Cean Gwla.

 

[2house2fly]

It's been hinted several times in the game that they simply cannot go against their own personalities (which could be merely sophisticated A.I. routines):

Spoiler

In TWM, Ondra had to nuke the Engwithians with a small moon, and Abydon had to protect them. They were both aware of this - as well as how the other one would react - but could not go against their personalities/portfolios/programming.

You even win some arguments with them during their quests in Act III by pointing out that your actions were in accordance with their dogma. Once they realize that, they back off and grant you their favor.

True, but also they cast down Woedica and Ondra and Abydon fell in love. They're growing beyond what the Engwithans intended.

 

[Sizzle]

It's been hinted several times in the game that they simply cannot go against their own personalities (which could be merely sophisticated A.I. routines):

Spoiler

In TWM, Ondra had to nuke the Engwithians with a small moon, and Abydon had to protect them. They were both aware of this - as well as how the other one would react - but could not go against their personalities/portfolios/programming.

You even win some arguments with them during their quests in Act III by pointing out that your actions were in accordance with their dogma. Once they realize that, they back off and grant you their favor.

True, but also they cast down Woedica and Ondra and Abydon fell in love. They're growing beyond what the Engwithans intended.

It's possible Woedica was never cast down, but that they simply made her think she was when they created her. Every pantheon needs a power-hungry troublemaker

 

[2house2fly]

The plot of the game is that Thaos is sucking up the souls of unborn Dyrwood children to empower Woedica and restore her to her rightful place at the top.

 

[Sizzle]

Yes, because she'll then have the power to stomp out animancy research everywhere (for example, she's highly respected in the Aedyr Empire, and animancy is frowned upon there), which ties into Thaos' goal of keeping the origin of the gods a secret.

That still doesn't necessarily mean that she was once the most powerful god (and, as far as I know, nothing else in the game, apart from her own belief she was - supports this).

 

[Delterius]

Your idea could be interesting but nothing in game refers to this being a mystery. The cult of Woedica, the other gods in Court of Stars, Thaos and the fact that Woedica's favored nation is still the greatest in the world but has been in decline all prove otherwise.

 

[Sizzle]

Of course that's possible, but I always got the sense that the gods were deliberately manufactured to be as archetypal as possible (only Skaen sort of deviates from this, the others are pretty much what you would expect from a typical fantasy lineup) - and every divine pantheon needs a deity that seeks to subjugate the others.

 

[FreeKaner]

If you ask any of the Gods why they don't want Woedica at top they all give answers which fit their dogma. For example God of Hunt whatever his name was finds Woedica's rules to be strict, unchanging and rigid, getting in the way of survival of the fittest. One of them sees her as being an obstacle in the path of progress, only representing tradition etc.

 

[Rivmusique]

Wasn't there also something about Eothas being a "young" god? It could mean that he was actually created later. I though that perhaps he could have come about at the same time as Woedica's reduction of status, that he is a split off from her.

...But it could just be his legend, and he's been there all along.

 

[2house2fly]

The gods aren't one unified pantheon, the idea is that people will gravitate towards a deity based on what they represent, finding company and solace in other worshippers and reinforcing a moderate status quo. Skaen's the god of how ugly the oppressed underclass are and resent their betters aren't they violent, Abydon's the god of keeping your head down and being a productive and industrious worker, Wael's the god of not looking into things because questions are more valuable than answers so who really needs answers, right.
You're right in that, iirc, George Ziets came up with the gods and Eric Fenstermaker came up with the big reveal, which was one of several ideas pitched for the story, so the gods' portfolios are likely independent from that (although I vaguely remember Ziets saying on formspring that they might save stuff like the true nature of the gods for another game, so maybe the reveal was decided on really early and he designed them with it in mind) but you can see how each god reinforces an aspect of a stable society (from the perspective of their creators) in concept if not in practice.

 

[Harry Easter]

The gods aren't one unified pantheon, the idea is that people will gravitate towards a deity based on what they represent, finding company and solace in other worshippers and reinforcing a moderate status quo. Skaen's the god of how ugly the oppressed underclass are and resent their betters aren't they violent, Abydon's the god of keeping your head down and being a productive and industrious worker, Wael's the god of not looking into things because questions are more valuable than answers so who really needs answers, right.
You're right in that, iirc, George Ziets came up with the gods and Eric Fenstermaker came up with the big reveal, which was one of several ideas pitched for the story, so the gods' portfolios are likely independent from that (although I vaguely remember Ziets saying on formspring that they might save stuff like the true nature of the gods for another game, so maybe the reveal was decided on really early and he designed them with it in mind) but you can see how each god reinforces an aspect of a stable society (from the perspective of their creators) in concept if not in practice.

I thought the same. The gods keep themselve in-line but

Spoiler

I also agree that they seem to break their programming. My guess is that Woedica was kind of an overseer (that's why Skael is under her foot. I believe the little weasel still reports to her, whenever a revolution gets TOO radical), but the gods dethroned her, when she got too power hungry. They started as intelligent concepts, but now they are sentient and the world is screwed.

And yeah, the narrative of PoE isn't perfect, but Obsidian played around a bit and established some interesting things in WM 2 and the main game, so I am really excited what they will do with it. At least they had finally one good idea with the keep, as the trailer shows :D.

 

[Riddler]

Wael's the god of not looking into things because questions are more valuable than answers so who really needs answers, right.

I thought Wael represented the value of journey over destination. Not that the destination is completely unimportant but that the journey there is more important and in it self explains more than the answer. That answers are simplistic and misleading and the search for them contains more truth than the answers themselves.

To tie back to your interpretation: the followers should look into things because that process is valuable, not necessarily the answers themselves due to the complexity of the world.

Have I missunderstood or am i simply reading too much into a perhaps poorly thoughtout game deity?

 

[Harry Easter]

I thought Wael represented the value of journey over destination. Not that the destination is completely unimportant but that the journey there is more important and in it self explains more than the answer. That answers are simplistic and misleading and the search for them contains more truth than the answers themselves.

Have I missunderstood or am i simply reading too much into a perhaps poorly thoughtout game deity?

hmm, I thought Wael was more the god of misinformations and screwing the facts around until it doesn't matter anymore. But your interpretation has also value, considering how janus-headed all of the gods are.

 

[Riddler]

I thought Wael represented the value of journey over destination. Not that the destination is completely unimportant but that the journey there is more important and in it self explains more than the answer. That answers are simplistic and misleading and the search for them contains more truth than the answers themselves.

Have I missunderstood or am i simply reading too much into a perhaps poorly thoughtout game deity?

hmm, I thought Wael was more the god of misinformations and screwing the facts around until it doesn't matter anymore. But your interpretation has also value, considering how janus-headed all of the gods are.

Perhaps I just want to interpret it that way because I find a god just fucking around uninteresting as a concept if they are man-made with the purpose of gathering followers to replace earlier cults. Who follows a god just representing chaos?

Additionally then why would his followers be in charge of the main library?

 

[Harry Easter]

Perhaps I just want to interpret it that way because I find a god just fucking around uninteresting as a concept if they are man-made with the purpose of gathering followers to replace earlier cults. Who follows a god just representing chaos?

Additionally then why would his followers be in charge of the main library?

He is still a god of knowledge, but he chooses which knowledge the people get. Otherwise the kin would already knew that

Spoiler

the gods aren't real

and his priests don't know that

Spoiler

he keeps the origins of the gods a secret

and you can corrupt the message "everything is relative as long as you are comfortable with yourself", with actions like this. I guess the goal is that people start ro believe, that it doesn't matter that the gods aren't mysterious, as long you can find your "own" truth. That's also a kind of control, since it can put you in a mindset like "I can't change anything, there will never be enough facts, so why bother?"

The gods exist to keep everything in order and they use every dirty trick they are programmed with.

 

[Suicidal]

Reading this discussion it gave me an idea - what if the Engwithians simply could not foresee that their way of creating gods would result in so much chaos later down the line. They were pretty sure that they are doing this for the benefit of a stable peaceful society at the time, but things started fucking up many hundreds of years later after their deaths. Was Thaos involved in the creation of the gods or did he come into the picture later? I forgot. Cause even an immortal soul-stealing mastermind can't know what's gonna happen in 200, 300 or 500 years. People often assume that the villain/antagonist always does the correct well thought out thing, but nobody said they can't make mistakes.

Also when playing PoE I noticed that Obsidian were kinda hinting at the man-made god idea a few times cause I remembered reading some of the lore books about gods and whenever one of the gods would speak to someone I immediately thought "this sounds like a robot rehearsing its lines".

I think the plot of PoE is a lot more interesting than most people on the Codex give it credit for. If only it was written and presented a little better...

 

[Harry Easter]

Reading this discussion it gave me an idea - what if the Engwithians simply could not foresee that their way of creating gods would result in so much chaos later down the line. They were pretty sure that they are doing this for the benefit of a stable peaceful society at the time, but things started fucking up many hundreds of years later after their deaths. Was Thaos involved in the creation of the gods or did he come into the picture later? I forgot. Cause even an immortal soul-stealing mastermind can't know what's gonna happen in 200, 300 or 500 years. People often assume that the villain/antagonist always does the correct well thought out thing, but nobody said they can't make mistakes.

Yes! I really believe that that was one of the points of the story: you can't stop change, no matter how powerful you believe to be. Thaos and the gods live now longer than they should and now they are fighting over the last bits of control they have. Because let's be honest, Thaos will never stop animancy completely and he can't be everywhere and even the gods aren't eternal, when they can be destroyed/killed. That's what actually makes Pillars story very interesting, but you forget that fast, when you enter Defiance Bay and the pacing stops for a while.

 

[Sizzle]

Wasn't there also something about Eothas being a "young" god? It could mean that he was actually created later. I though that perhaps he could have come about at the same time as Woedica's reduction of status, that he is a split off from her.

...But it could just be his legend, and he's been there all along.

Lathander always struck as the obvious inspiration for Eothas - both good gods of light who had attempted to meddle and failed. Lathander even eventually became Amunator, which is also something that might happen to Eothas (or he might have simply gone evil and mad ) in some way.

 

[Prime Junta]

Lathander even eventually became Amunator

Other way around. Amaunator was sun god before Lathander. Retcons in 4e made Lathander a reincarnation of Amaunator.

 

[Riddler]

Perhaps I just want to interpret it that way because I find a god just fucking around uninteresting as a concept if they are man-made with the purpose of gathering followers to replace earlier cults. Who follows a god just representing chaos?

Additionally then why would his followers be in charge of the main library?

He is still a god of knowledge, but he chooses which knowledge the people get. Otherwise the kin would already knew that

Spoiler

the gods aren't real

and his priests don't know that

Spoiler

he keeps the origins of the gods a secret

and you can corrupt the message "everything is relative as long as you are comfortable with yourself", with actions like this. I guess the goal is that people start ro believe, that it doesn't matter that the gods aren't mysterious, as long you can find your "own" truth. That's also a kind of control, since it can put you in a mindset like "I can't change anything, there will never be enough facts, so why bother?"

The gods exist to keep everything in order and they use every dirty trick they are programmed with.

While it could certainly be like that I don't find the underlying philosophy attractive at all. Why would you follow a nihilistic god centered around chaos? I prefer my interpretation and how some of his most devote followers missunderstood his message/programming/philosophy.

I suppose some people (in game) might find solace in the interpretation that nothing matters and everything is equally true depending on your point of view ( especially if you've done something bad or are unintelligent) but I find that a too simplistic concept if you are creating a god. Suppose we created a bunch of superintelligent AI's to guide us, would the people designing them imprint them with such simple (and to me meaningless) core principles?



Something else I have been thinking about is the extent to which the engwithians really could determine that there are no god's. The only thing they could really confirm reliably is that the god's the different cults followed didn't exist and care about their rituals/sacrifices. What god's/creators/powerful cosmic entities that don't give a shit about the tribes of Eora?

I think this opens an interesting window for cosmic horrors and such that the engwithians couldn't conceive or detect. Imagine the created god's dealing with cthulu, I find that concept more interesting than simply man created god's, especially since we know they are created.

One way this could be introduced in some future game is through the reincarnation of souls. Obviously there is some sort of closed system where souls are recycled. This reminds me of Bakkers Prince of nothing series and the goals of the consult. Perhaps Eora has been isolated and closed off from the rest of existence somehow.

Perhaps the actions of the characters and gods could breaks the reincarnation cycle (and eoras isolation) and open up Eora to the universe and all the entiries and horrors that dwell there.

Given the stakes in the first game I think this could be a way to shake things up a little and make the world more unknown and mysterious/dangerous. Knowing that the god's are creations of man loosens the possible tension somewhat, at least for me.

Games do not have to deal with this level of existence to be interesting of course and grounded stories are often the most fun to me but making the setting more unknowable and existentially dangerous seems like a good idea to me.