Planescape:T : Insights and Suggestions

[Drakron]

Really?

You cannot escape being "The Nameless One".

This is not like BG series were the Bhallspawn could be a elf or a female, this is not like IWD were the party could be anything.

Its even worst that KotOR were one COULD be a women, also the ability to change class in PS:T comes later ... we are always stuck at being a ugly scarred tatooed human male fighter.

Also there is a extreme lack of weapons types ... there were no swords, no staffs and no ranged weapons of any kind with armor being non-existent.

PS:T was playing a pre-generated character ... its like when you get to your PnP group the DM says "you start by playing this character but you get to pick his stats".

I know that I will be hearing the "your TNO was unique" bullshit because I get to pick the stats and have a more detailed equipment system (despite the fact all armor vanish when I get near as well several weapons ... heck even Trias longword is affected by that strange curse and becames something else) and a near useless aligment system.

 

[roshan]

You cannot escape being "The Nameless One".

This is not like BG series were the Bhallspawn could be a elf or a female, this is not like IWD were the party could be anything.

In BG series you cannot escape being the Bhaalspawn. You can choose to be an elf or a female but that has absolutely no impact on the npc reactions or the story, so what the fuck is the point?

Its even worst that KotOR were one COULD be a women, also the ability to change class in PS:T comes later ... we are always stuck at being a ugly scarred tatooed human male fighter.

Also there is a extreme lack of weapons types ... there were no swords, no staffs and no ranged weapons of any kind with armor being non-existent.

If all you want is to play dress up, you can buy a barbie doll, you dont need to waste money on rpgs.

PS:T was playing a pre-generated character ... its like when you get to your PnP group the DM says "you start by playing this character but you get to pick his stats".

Everyone knows that in PST you can pick the stats but not the characters background. What the hell is your point?

I know that I will be hearing the "your TNO was unique" bullshit because I get to pick the stats and have a more detailed equipment system (despite the fact all armor vanish when I get near as well several weapons ... heck even Trias longword is affected by that strange curse and becames something else) and a near useless aligment system.

First of all, no one has claimed that your tno was unique because of the equipment system. Your tno was unique because he started with no memories and no personality and thus, he was a completely blank slate that you could write into whatever you want. He could be good or evil, smart or foolish, cowardly or brave, chaotic or orderly. You could roleplay him as any sort of personality you wanted, and these decisions had real impacts on the quests, the story and the npcs.

In addition to being able to choose whatever personality you wanted, you could also forge his physical self. Unlike in baldurs gate where the stats and pretty much everything else were just combat decisions, in torment, they defined the character and made him a different person. In Torment, if you were strong enough, you could pry morte from the pillar of skulls. If you were charismatic enough, you could convince the crier of es annon to stop crying. If you were fast enough, you could snap of the necks of the dustmen. If you were intelligent enough, you could translate fells rebuses.

In baldurs gate, if you were stong enough, you get bonus damage. If you were wise enough, you got bonus cleric spells. If you were fast enough, you got more armor class. If you were intelligent enough, you got more mage spells.

See the fucking difference?

 

[Drakron]

In BG series you cannot escape being the Bhaalspawn. You can choose to be an elf or a female but that has absolutely no impact on the npc reactions or the story, so what the fuck is the point?

So what?

If I want to play a damn elf female I sould have that option ... you sound like Oblivion fanboys with "less is good".

You sould not bring BG series because race affected romance, class affected stronghold quest line.

If all you want is to play dress up, you can buy a barbie doll, you dont need to waste money on rpgs.

Here we have again "less is good".

Since when does less gear=good ... there was ONE, I REPEAT ONE joinable NPC in the entire game that used ranged weapons.

Perhaps you dont get it because combat was utterly shit that I could not even go ranged support without Mordon and there was a place in the god damn game were I could use ranged weapons.

That is your excuse? play dress up?

Everyone knows that in PST you can pick the stats but not the characters background. What the hell is your point?

I dont know ... perhaps I want to create my own character and play him?

First of all, no one has claimed that your tno was unique because of the equipment system. Your tno was unique because he started with no memories and no personality and thus, he was a completely blank slate that you could write into whatever you want. He could be good or evil, smart or foolish, cowardly or brave, chaotic or orderly. You could roleplay him as any sort of personality you wanted, and these decisions had real impacts on the quests, the story and the npcs.

Bullshit.

The game starts the exact same way, there is no "unique" since his entire background is established.

As for "roleplaying" ... oh yes, I can pick up dialogue options that I see fit but its still not MY character, its someone ... its like I pick up my friend character and reset his stats, level and aligment.

And before I forget ... Revan also starts in a blank state for the exact same reasons.

In addition to being able to choose whatever personality you wanted, you could also forge his physical self. Unlike in baldurs gate where the stats and pretty much everything else were just combat decisions, in torment, they defined the character and made him a different person. In Torment, if you were strong enough, you could pry morte from the pillar of skulls. If you were charismatic enough, you could convince the crier of es annon to stop crying. If you were fast enough, you could snap of the necks of the dustmen. If you were intelligent enough, you could translate fells rebuses.

And with KotOR you can do that too ... reason why things worked like that on PS:T is they thrown the rulebook out the window and so I got stuck playing someone house rules except I am not even informed of that.

In baldurs gate, if you were stong enough, you get bonus damage. If you were wise enough, you got bonus cleric spells. If you were fast enough, you got more armor class. If you were intelligent enough, you got more mage spells.

Just like the official rulebook without making shit up like PS:T did.

See the fucking difference?

See if I fucking care.

You are a Torment fanboy, you been spewing this crap for years since I do remenber about you in Black Isle forums.

Now lets recap what you just said.

1) Story is more important that character generation allowing selection of class, race and gender.

2) Customization is pointless beyond stat and damage ration.

How were we can find pre-generated characters with little customization options?

Thats right, CONSOLE RPGS!

PS:T is a fine adventure game and a shitty RPG.

 

[aboyd]

PS:T is a fine adventure game and a shitty RPG.

Whatever words you wish to use to define PS:T, I wish there were more games like it.

-T

 

[bryce777]

"Thats right, CONSOLE RPGS! "

Except they are written for a 7 year old boy who has never kissed a girl.

 

[kingcomrade]

Ha! I kissed a girl in kindgergarten, once. I remember being mad at my friend, because he got to kiss the pretty one and I got the ugly one with the birthmark/splotch on her face.

 

[oherror]

thats sad...but funny too

 

[Balor]

Wow!
PST bashing! Now we have everything!
...
Well, that's strange. It seems like Drakron's vision of best RPG shapes up as... Morrwind: you have tons of weaopns and armor to dress up your character, you can go anywhere you want, play any character your want, and you don't have that messy dialogues and storyline to bother you.

Drakron, what are you doing here? TES forums are for you.

 

[Drakron]

No, my vision of best RPG is based on a lot of factors ... the ability to create my own character is important to that, not playing a pre-generated with restrictions to what equipment is avaible for my character.

 

[Balor]

Oh, 'equipment restriction' is, unfortunatly, AD&D's fault. I hate it too, with a passion, and take it as 'nessesary evil'. And besides, combat was a really negligible part of PST, becaue you had much more interesting things to do. If you fuck up combat in action-RPG - you are screwed, cause it's all there is. In PST - it's minor and, largely, avoidable.

Btw, please, can you name a few RPGs where you can make really your character?
I mean - define your background and all that? At the very best you also have a list of pregenerated ones.
In absolute most RPGs you also begin with a 'pregenerated' character - only with undefined background. Oh, and customised stats.

So, great sin of PST designers was spelling it out.
And ability to state your alignment BEFORE creating the damn game is utterly stupid. Your actions should define it, not some sort of field in your character sheet.
Oh, and btw, care to name a few nonlinear (or, at least, as nonvariant as PST) adventure games?
With as much ability to PLAY a goddam ROLE?
Ok, PST is adventure game. But if adventure game allows (and fully supports your efforts at it) multivariance and roleplay - it should be named RPG. Period. (c)

 

[kingcomrade]

Btw, please, can you name a few RPGs where you can make really your character?

Microsoft Wordpad! One of my favorites. And its sequel Microsoft: Word, has an important feature. You can turn the text white and the background black so you aren't staring at a light bulb as you type.

 

[Screaming_life]

And ability to state your alignment BEFORE creating the damn game is utterly stupid. Your actions should define it, not some sort of field in your character sheet.

I think it's ok to define it at the start as long as it changes during the game depending on your actions. This way it can say something about your past. But in PST neutral is the only logical option considering you can't remember anything.

 

[Balor]

Good point, Sl.

 

[gromit]

I can see how not being able to pick a race might have irked some people, but I always thought the whole TNO concept was a pretty slick way to give a backstory and goal without dictating what your character has done before the game starts.

Yes, the body did a bunch of stuff, and everyone recognizes the scarred bag of meat, but that wasn't my character. I was the latest incarnation, the new tenant in the apartment if you will, and made to face other people's messes that they left behind. The reason I don't have any memories isn't that I don't remember my dark past, it's because I have no past. I did not exist until the body was coming back to life, and a new mind was being spawned inside of it.

 

[Drakron]

Oh, 'equipment restriction' is, unfortunatly, AD&D's fault. I hate it too, with a passion, and take it as 'nessesary evil'.

Except in PS:T that was "lets not make the sprites and animations for it.

And besides, combat was a really negligible part of PST, becaue you had much more interesting things to do. If you fuck up combat in action-RPG - you are screwed, cause it's all there is. In PST - it's minor and, largely, avoidable.

Its not.

From the moment you reach under Crust (to free Trias) you get stuck in combat ... sure you CAN run but there combat heavy areas.

Btw, please, can you name a few RPGs where you can make really your character?
I mean - define your background and all that? At the very best you also have a list of pregenerated ones.
In absolute most RPGs you also begin with a 'pregenerated' character - only with undefined background. Oh, and customised stats.

Taking the wordpad joke ... IWD(s) were you COULD write their bios.

The problem in RPG characters is background vs customization options ... its easy to create a full pre-generated character and write the story from there as its also easy to make a character generation system and make it not connected to the character.

So, great sin of PST designers was spelling it out.
And ability to state your alignment BEFORE creating the damn game is utterly stupid. Your actions should define it, not some sort of field in your character sheet.

No, what is utterly stupid is to start the game with a character that have no moral compass.

He was not born yesterday ... he had a life and already made moral choices and that is why characters have diferent aligments.

The idea behind aligment its to serve as a roleplaying enforcement rule ... by itself it does not limit roleplaying but it forces players to roleplay since if they want to be a bard they have to act like a bard.

The system in PS:T was retarded because it allowed madman characters that were NE at one point and LG at the other ... those persons would have serious personality disorders.

Oh, and btw, care to name a few nonlinear (or, at least, as nonvariant as PST) adventure games?
With as much ability to PLAY a goddam ROLE?
Ok, PST is adventure game. But if adventure game allows (and fully supports your efforts at it) multivariance and roleplay - it should be named RPG. Period. (c)

Adventure games dont usually have multi endings or multi solutions.

However I can point out Deus Ex that not being a adventure game (is a FPS, I know some disagee but that is what the developers said it was) so if people can shoe in that game as a RPG so can I do the same with PS:T since if you strip the levels, stats and combat you pretty much end up with the same game.

 

[bryce777]

Alignments are just stupid anyhow.

The idea you are going to always act a certain way is ridiculous.

Why you think not having a set alignment to start is crazy is beyond me.

 

[Drakron]

Aligment is relative dynamic ... you dont get push from good to evil because of one act, in order to change it sould require consistent change of behavior from listed aligment.

And people do consistent act in a certain way, that is why there is behavior paterns ... aligment is simply a gross generalization of such paterns and morality.

So unless you are saying a 18 years old human sould have no morality and no set behavior ...

But I do say this, aligment funtions in D&D because of the multi universe, class mechanics and the mechanics behind several spells ... without it there sould no reason for such system that would simply weight down the rules.

In my opinion people that complain about aligment in D&D are either muchkins, powergamers or people that are blinded by the rules.

 

[bryce777]

In DnD, too much is based on alignment. It makes some sense a paladin has to act a certain way, or priest, but for everyone else it's justs tupid and unrealistic.

Perhaps I might decide to rape and kill a party member one day, but up til then had not wanted to. That's the kind of roleplayign I want to see.

 

[Drakron]

Sure ... that is why aligment is near useless beyond come classes (Paladin, Druid and Cleric).

Of course with 3rd. ed. multiclass rules it becames a requirement since everyone can multiclass, also there are PtC.

And what you just written is realistic on the sense you are a rapist murder and if you pull that off in a game you can be damn sure nobody else on your table would play with you again ... "roleplaying" is no excuse to be a ass.

Also you are saying its normal to have fantasies of raping and killing other people and even act upon such fantasies and that having no moral affect ... odd, last time I checked both murder and death was considered "bad".

 

[Balor]

No, what is utterly stupid is to start the game with a character that have no moral compass.

He was not born yesterday ... he had a life and already made moral choices and that is why characters have diferent aligments.

Aha! Got you, Drakron .
In fact, NO indeed WAS born yesterday - more then that, he was born a few seconds before you started the game!
You should not dismiss the 'blank slate' argument so offhandly.
You are 'born' into the world - and your actions will dictate your alignment, shifting it to good or evil, chaotic or lawful.

Perhaps I might decide to rape and kill a party member one day, but up til then had not wanted to. That's the kind of roleplayign I want to see.

It shows that you are chaotically-aligned

 

[gromit]

Wow, bryce, you really -do- love your rape-games, don't you? :D

 

[Balor]

*hmms*
I wonder if Battle Raper is (and that Biko 2 or 3, I guess) his favorite game of all time?

 

[Drakron]

Its Biko 3, I think there is a Biko 2 but with Illusion games we can never be sure (like Artificial Girl "1" was just a tech demo).

 

[vazquez595654]

This topic sucks.

 

[aboyd]

Perhaps I might decide to rape and kill a party member one day, but up til then had not wanted to. That's the kind of roleplayign I want to see.

It shows that you are chaotically-aligned

I don't know. I'd call that Neutral Evil -- sometimes working within established order, and sometimes going insane. But neutral or chaotic, anyone who has the potential to rape & kill a party member would qualify as evil in my book, even if that evil isn't manifest for extended periods of time.

If I were the DM, I'd give you the NE alignment for the duration of the game, and sporadic good deeds wouldn't cause any fluctuation in your alignment.

-T