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Playing PoE1: impressions

Bigg Boss

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
7,528
Isn't that the case in all cRPGs, though?
I'm guessing the oldest cRPG you've played is diablo 2?
There are a lot older RPGs where magic serves little to no non-combat purpose tbf.
Baldur's Gate wasn't one of them.
And yes, there are a lot of shit RPGs that focus solely on turning wizards into magical archers, most thanks for that can be laid at the feet of games like diablo 2.
We've been going backwards for decades now in terms of actual gameplay mechanics in RPGs, and people ask for it to only get worse.
Would you say that was possibly because people like you buy and shill games like FALLOUT 76 and SKYRIM!? I mean you claim to support great RPG's but I just keep seeing Fallout 76 when I see your stupid fucking name.
 

Incendax

Augur
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
892
I mean, do you even pay attention to what you yourself wrote? You complain about not having magic in a dialogue option, and then in the next breath say that magic in a dialogue option doesn't matter. This is probably an argument you want to finish having with the two halves of your brain first.
He's talking about casting Charm Person on an NPC and them having different dialog from when you normally talk to them. This was an actual thing. It wasn't advertised. It's just something you discovered about the game by... casting Charm Person and talking to them. :D

In a properly thought out fantasy world, magic that has strictly combat uses should be in the tiny, tiny minority of spells available. The idea that all wizards would have entire grimoires only full of ways to disable and kill people is ridiculous. Just like how a lot of historical weapons were simply repurposed tools, so too would be most 'combat magic' outside of professional soldiers.
I go both ways on the issue. On the one hand, I would love a robust magic system steeped in ritual, where you create subtle and long lasting effects that change the world in meaningful ways. On the other hand, games like Wizardry 1 were mostly magic archers because... that's what you spent most of your time doing. Sure, there were some good exploration spells, but about 70% of your shit was magic archery.
 
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Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
Years ago smart guy Sea was making mod for DAO called Thirst. Nice mod has some C&C. In the prologue area, you had to enter city (where you later join either GUARD or SHADY GUYS oh modders u be u) through sewers. The sewer was blocked by some metal bars though.
As you approached them, you got dialogue which looked like this:

Strength: bend bars
Cunnin: squeeze through
use item: break bars
use fire spells: melt bars
use ice: make bars brittle n break them

of course, it was just a tutorial area and you'd probably need to know scripting language to do anything with DAO.

but, I think that many developers unironically believe that this is it, that's what roleplaying and choice is about.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
15,175
Location
Eastern block
Disappointed by the Raedric quest, which had the great beginnings of solid C&C. But for all the possible ways to enter the castle, once you reach Raedric, you can either kill him or go back and kill Kolsc. No way to solve this through conversation.

The troika of "force, stealth, smarts" was not used for this quest for reasons unknown.
Come on, now you're just being (even more) nitpicky and petty. Its a great quest and a great location.

I wish more crpg quests had that attention to detail and polish.

Hahah this Haplo is Inshillitron 2.0

There is hardly anything special about Raedric's Hold. Its just a big, mega-boring fortress of blandness where you fight the same trash-mobs (which don't grant exp) over and over until you get brain cancer.

I'll remind you of Helms Hold in NwN, which despite Nwn being shat on regularly on the Dex, actually has bunch of optional content, 1) a trapped demon with multiple solutions, 2) a merchant stable boy with unique stock, 3) an unrelated quest regarding undead infestation in the bottom level, and 4) prisoners with various additional information/quests.
 

Harthwain

Arcane
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,487
but, I think that many developers unironically believe that this is it, that's what roleplaying and choice is about.
I'd say it is a major thing in an RPG. But having the script everything is the problem, which is why I always say that more holistic system is necessary. I find it funny that we're having games like Shadows of the Forbidden Gods and Ruinarch, which are more sensible in their attempts in creating dynamic relationships and interconnected systems than the self-proclaimed RPGs (the very genre that ought to be all over this approach!).

This is what we can blame Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Fallout 1 & 2, etc. for. Because they started the trend of heavy narrative RPGs and covered the whole idea with concrete, making it unimaginable for people to think about RPGs in a different fashion.
 
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
12,290
Location
USSR
funny that you think not having helmets for godlikes is historically innacurate but gloss over the fact that none of the armor in the game is custom-made at all, which is the same for every CRPG. in BG a generic set of armor fits a little gnome just as well as a burly half-orc. at least PoE doesn't have "studded leather"...
When things aren't explained in fantasy, they are left to the imagination. In games, it's even better - they are conventions, like the "armor fits all" one.

But in here, two things went wrong. First, Soywer strives for historic accuracy.
Second, he not only decided to explain the helmets, but went for a DIEGETIC explanation (in-world explanation). And it fits very poorly with historic accuracy of his own world.

It would've been better to simply state: "godlikes can't wear helmets". I wouldn't have anything to say to that and it wouldn't rankle.

The helmets are only a minor problem with the lore of Eora. I haven't reached Defiance Bay and I've already written down 4 pages of excerpts from books that made my brows fly to the ceiling. I don't even know how to broach the subject, because of the sheer amount of problems.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
26,077
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
Fallouts have a lot of emergent gameplay *spits for using journo speak* nonstandard uses of skills and items.

Reverse pickpocket for example. How you will run around with loaded dynamite in Klamath to blow up kids, etc
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,642
He's talking about casting Charm Person on an NPC and them having different dialog from when you normally talk to them. This was an actual thing. It wasn't advertised. It's just something you discovered about the game by... casting Charm Person and talking to them. :D


Resulting in some different flavor dialogue with literally no impact on the game, correct? The fact that this is chosen as the example of good non-combat magic gameplay in RPGs is a pretty good indication of how poorly non-combat magic is used in RPGs.

There were some RPGs where it was implemented decently into gameplay in some edge cases. I remember the mapping spell and the move mountains spell could be used together in the Exiles to find some secrets. But even there most of the time it was used to fight enemies.

Probably the best use of non-combat magic that comes to my mind is Quest for Glory, since it's an adventure game. But there you see the limitations - even with a few spells, it's too difficult to create enough options to actually show the effect of each one on the world. Which is why you can calm the minotaur, but not blind him with dazzle (if I recall correctly). Even with a small number of spells in a small adventure game it's hard to implement non-combat options consistently, which leads to players just trying everything to see if the developers bothered to implement a reaction.
 
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agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,937
"The pact of Glanfanthan was the last hope of the Valirian republics under king Roric..."
Can't believe you still have trouble wrapping your head around the consequences of the battle of Glenfiddich between the Lagavulin and the Glenmorangie armies, and how that shaped the Laphroaig restoration.

It's like reading Thucydides, but with way cooler names.
Great, now I want a glass of scotch - and it's before 10 am!
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
6,937
Sorry for double (triple?) posting, there's a lot to digest here.

Bester can you post some before and after screens to show what NPCs look like when they're not skating around on their heels?
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,348
In a properly thought out fantasy world, magic that has strictly combat uses should be in the tiny, tiny minority of spells available. The idea that all wizards would have entire grimoires only full of ways to disable and kill people is ridiculous. Just like how a lot of historical weapons were simply repurposed tools, so too would be most 'combat magic' outside of professional soldiers.

To be fair most weapons were repurposed tools because metal and craftsman hours were too expensive for common people. With magic the only investment is time needed to learn them and peasant have some spare time in the winter. I could also imagine feudal lords sending low level mage novices to teach spells, the same way they were investing in mass producing equipment in late medieval time.
 
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
12,290
Location
USSR
agris it's barely noticeable, you really need a keen eye*, plus it has to be seen in motion. It would've been better if I could also rotate the selection circles, but I gave up on that - PoE's code is a hot mess.
I did manage to correct the circles' rotation temporarily for SOME creatures and it looked nice, but I failed to do it consistently.

*If I showed you a comparison, you'd see the difference. But you probably wouldn't be able to tell which one is at the correct angle.
 

agris

Arcane
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Joined
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Joined
May 31, 2018
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The Present
luj1 I disagree on Tyranny. It was decent, if ultimately forgettable. It had a great deal of potential. If it had a real budget, it would have been quite good. I enjoyed it more than Dragon Age: Origins or Pillars of Eternity. I haven't properly played TTON yet.
 

Sunsetspawn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,122
Location
New York
In contrast, say if you look at D: OS(just bear with me jack) , you have spells like Rain and Black oil, which work as ways to interact with the world first. You do end up making use of them to navigate amd manipulate the world around you, not just in combat.
Sheeeit, blood, my hand to J you ain't jivin', but just spittin straight dope ain't make me finna hang wit no turkey!
While I fully agree with you that D:OS handled some spells in a creative and non-martial manner; I cannot abide by your implicitly offensive tone regarding a game I find to be truly exceptional!
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
@luj1 I disagree on Tyranny. It was decent, if ultimately forgettable. It had a great deal of potential. If it had a real budget, it would have been quite good. I enjoyed it more than Dragon Age: Origins or Pillars of Eternity. I haven't properly played TTON yet.

Tyranny's biggest problems were a terrible combat engine, poor optimization and enemy variety.
 
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
12,290
Location
USSR
On PoE's lore, part 1

Whenever I try to think of the "good" things about Pillars, I quickly end up on its cons, because the game often comes up short of being good at anything.
Take its lore and historical accuracy, for example. At first I'm tempted to write it down in the "pros" column. A setting reproduced from a concrete historical foundation
can offer a unique glimpse into the cultural code of another time period. Game of Thrones does this, and it's one of the reasons of its immense success. Martin has
studied history very thoroughly, and his world is truly medieval to the bone.

Sawyer decided to attempt something similar, but wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen (whoever says A, must also say B). Yet PoE never says "B". He doesn't see it through.

For instance, women in history generally weren't equal to men in rights, no matter what period you take. In Archaic Greece, women weren't considered citizens
and lived in separate "women's quarters", where men only went for one purpose - procreation. Women were forbidden to go into the "men's quarters". They lived
so much apart, that it is suspected women had their own version of the Greek language.

In Medieval Europe, on which Pillars is more often based, wives were considered their husbands' property. In the 1500s, a Marital Exemption for Rape was passed:
forced sexual intercourse was considered a husband making use of his property.

Married women were legally considered subordinate to their husbands, and a woman's land automatically became the property of her husband on marriage.
Medieval Canon law allowed a wife to be punished publicly, e.g. with iron muzzles:
dba2059057c3c621f41622d31aecff85.png


Pillars gives no indication of any this. The NPCs you encounter act as if there is and always has been equality between men and women. The subject of inequality, even if in a past tense, is not brought up.
Except in places, where the game suddenly remembers we're in feudalism - Raedric stabs his wife for bearing him a soulless child and it's not considered anything out of the ordinary by anyone, to their credit.
The inconsistency makes the world come apart at the seams. You either have free strong women or you have feudal women who wouldn't dream of disobeying their husband or father.

0ba1e7c26541860fe5711851609cd7f3.jpg

"Who hit you?"

430afb72e8b290074d4adfbe13a80b3a.png

"Have you tried calling to the police??" - Back in real life: Wife Beating Made a Crime in Maryland in 1882 - first state to make wife beating a crime.

Sagani is particularly grating, but it's not just the women are modern - instead of rearing children, she LEFT HER HUSBAND AND CHILDREN to travel around. The unrealistic ease of travel is another subject I'll discuss later.
There are no racial or ethnic tensions. Religion and society as a whole is modern to its core, but what's worse, it's boringly modern. Internally I started calling it Netflix fantasy.
It deserves its own post, and I'll talk about it after completing the game. (if I manage to)

For now, enjoy this little exposition - when asked about his home town, the rioter decides to speak in encyclopedic:
031f6190eb41d0606c3fbf9b703ee3b3.jpg

*In hushed tone* Sawyer's touch
 
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