Please help me understand something about Neverwinter Nights

[vorvek]

Anyway, you are right, you can of course roll an evil character, but if you don't have one, that Allip-idea might not be so easy.
Also, see this part from the D&D wiki:

The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Should work against an Allip, I think, unless incorporeal creatures are again an exception.

Incorporeal doesn't grant damage reduction. They just can't be harmed unless you are using magic. The tarrasque's natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, but are not epic weapons. They are just mundane claws and teeth, although very big.

The Drain/Damage distinction I'm not sure of. As I said, I'm no expert on D&D rules. Discussion on the internet seem a bit confusing about that.
As I said, you will probably be at the mercy of the DM.

Also, while the allip example might be subject to debate whether the rules mean one thing or another, we were talking about a level 5 cleric that wouldn't even get XP from killing the tarrasque. If the DM is throwing an epic monster at a low level party (even if it's an overrated), he probably doesn't really want to play. By level 15 killing a tarrasque is but a chore for most reasonably prepared parties. The fact that it's but a meaty damage sponge, unable to cast spells, use interesting spell-like abilities, or even fly, make the tarrasque a minor annoyance at best.

 

[Gord]

Also, while the allip example might be subject to debate whether the rules mean one thing or another, we were talking about a level 5 cleric that wouldn't even get XP from killing the tarrasque. If the DM is throwing an epic monster at a low level party (even if it's an overrated), he probably doesn't really want to play. By level 15 killing a tarrasque is but a chore for most reasonably prepared parties. The fact that it's but a meaty damage sponge, unable to cast spells, use interesting spell-like abilities, or even fly, make the tarrasque a minor annoyance at best.

In that case the DM is indeed doing it wrong, yes.
Of course, he might come up with a quest where a Tarrasque has just awakened and is threatening the region and the (low level) group assists the "real" adventurers with various tasks, but should really not try to fight the Tarrasque themselves. If I were the DM in that adventure, I wouldn't allow the Allip idea, as it seems better to me to present the Tarrasque more as force of nature than a simple boring high-level monster (which is probably what whoever came up with it had in mind). But munchkins gonna munchkin, so the bigger challenge might lie with the DM after all

 

[Volourn]

Anyone who thinks a single allip could kill a tarrasque is retarted. Seriously. FFS

 

[Average Manatee]

Should we hold NWN to D&D rules? Saying that resurrection or cure disease should have material costs when they don't in the game is incorrect as far as I'm concerned. The game is based on D&D, but all games, movies, books, etc need to stand on their own, not reference other works to explain away their problems. Ergo clerics should be able to cure disease several people a minute for free as resting takes something like 30 seconds.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Should we hold NWN to D&D rules? Saying that resurrection or cure disease should have material costs when they don't in the game is incorrect as far as I'm concerned. The game is based on D&D, but all games, movies, books, etc need to stand on their own, not reference other works to explain away their problems. Ergo clerics should be able to cure disease several people a minute for free as resting takes something like 30 seconds.

Is that not justifying one bad design decision with another? It is the rest everywhere mechanics of that game which allowed the trash mobs to be added in.

 

[Average Manatee]

Should we hold NWN to D&D rules? Saying that resurrection or cure disease should have material costs when they don't in the game is incorrect as far as I'm concerned. The game is based on D&D, but all games, movies, books, etc need to stand on their own, not reference other works to explain away their problems. Ergo clerics should be able to cure disease several people a minute for free as resting takes something like 30 seconds.

Is that not justifying one bad design decision with another? It is the rest everywhere mechanics of that game which allowed the trash mobs to be added in.

Trash mobs are already shit for gameplay related reasons. I'm not justifying NWN, I'm saying you can't defend it by relating D&D rules that don't exist in NWN.

 

[vorvek]

Anyone who thinks a single allip could kill a tarrasque is retarted. Seriously. FFS

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Jaesun]

Anyone who thinks a single allip could kill a tarrasque is retarted. Seriously. FFS

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

You must be new here, welcome to the codex.

Volo is ALWAYS right. Even when he is wrong.

 

[Volourn]

i AM never WRONG.

lL0L Allips killing a tarassaque! HAHAHAHAAA LOL

 

[aris]

Anyone who thinks a single allip could kill a tarrasque is retarted. Seriously. FFS

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Not if you're talking about the fourth edition, it isn't. It is immortal.

 

[roll-a-die]

See, I was really hoping that wouldn't be the answer. Because exploring the implications of gods, magic, etc. on a real-world epidemic would actually make a pretty fucking cool setup for a game.

You could answer all these obvious questions and provide logical "fantasy world" analogues to real-world situations. Maybe Cure Disease potions do work, but there are limited quantities and the ingredients are rare, so only the rich members of society can afford them, leading to riots and protests in the streets as the plague-ridden masses desperately seek aid. Maybe the plague stays in your body after a Resurrect spell is used - so while you can keep resurrecting someone over and over, eventually they end up a diseased carcass struggling to breathe and writhing in misery. Perhaps the gods themselves were the ones to create the plague and the lack of a cure is a way of mankind paying penance for its sins. All this stuff alone is enough to make for a great story and world to explore.

Think of all the quests and scenarios you could create based around those ideas. Maybe you have to travel across the world trying to gather rare plague-restoring ingredients and negotiate shipments with suppliers. You could investigate new forms of spells and magic that combat the plague, turning the field of magic upside-down. Side-quests could explore the social struggles and collapse triggered by the plague, giving you "no right answer" scenarios. Perhaps you would have to undergo a series of trials to redeem mankind in the eyes of the gods. The inability to properly resurrect someone sheds light on the decadence of society and raises questions about the nature of life and death. Perhaps another nation sees the chaos and decides that the city is easy prey, and you have to deal with managing armies who are already devastated by disease - choosing who will be sacrificed in order to drive off the invaders.

Ah fuck it, I've been playing this game about 3 hours now. It's just gonna get even shittier, isn't it?

So basically to give it a gamist perspective the plague was a magical composition magic resistant poisons, and then cultured further using alchemy. Thus why an antivenom from some powerful light magic creatures was needed was needed.

 

[vorvek]

Anyone who thinks a single allip could kill a tarrasque is retarted. Seriously. FFS

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Not if you're talking about the fourth edition, it isn't. It is immortal.

4e tarrasque is a joke. No need for wish spells (since it doesn't exist in 4e). Just bash it back to the center of the planet for long enough for your characters not to ever care again. Or prepare a "Banish tarrasque ritual" and you don't even need to see the damned thing. It was raped so badly it's not even listed under the letter T in the Monster Manual, but simply as another Abomination.

Not that it matters, since 4e is pure PnP and there's no reason to play a shittier version of an already shitty PnP RPG.

 

[Whisper]

Where is proof that sea did praise GW2 story? If we can call it "story".

Back it up or apologize.

 

[sea]

Where is proof that sea did praise GW2 story? If we can call it "story".

Back it up or apologize.

Who are you?

 

[Whisper]

Whisper. And i like your writing and i dont like that some random guy accused you of praising GW2 story.

 

[roll-a-die]

Where is proof that sea did praise GW2 story? If we can call it "story".

Back it up or apologize.

Who are you?

Oh god, sea, you have fanboys/fanvestites now. You should monopolize on it and I don't know, start a public amazon wishlist...

 

[Harold]

Whisper. And i like your writing and i dont like that some random guy accused you of praising GW2 story.

Always happy to hook a bro up with his adoring fans. I'll try to keep'em comin' at a steady rate sea

Whisper read the GameBanshee GOTY thread.
ninjaedit: Also, holy shit dude you have a (c) at the end of your uber sig; you are so fucking awesome, let me tell you.

 

[RK47]

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

Well, sea does seem like a pretty cool guy.

 

[aris]

He is without a doubt one of the best codexers when it comes to arguing and justifying his opinions. And this is coming from me, who very often disagrees with him. He is a very interesting blog on gamasutra, go read.

 

[sea]

I just put down my extended thoughts on Neverwinter Nights:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20130215/186781/Dont_Waste_My_Time.php

Worship me, peons!

 

[grotsnik]

1. The roundabout. Literally a location where the end goal is clearly visible, but to reach it requires the player to follow a huge diversion, usually spanning almost the entire level's breadth, just to reach it. Bonus points if you aren't just using a big path that goes around in a redundant loop, but also winds and coils excessively to maximize use of floor space.
2. The maze. Lots of winding, twisting corridors are routes, most of them dead ends, from where there is no clear vantage point to ascertain exactly where to go, or where any one location exists relative to any other location. Usually mitigated by top-down games, as the camera has a better perspective, but if limited view distance is still a concern it can be just as effective.
3. The path. An overlong, straight and completely uninteresting level punctuated and given meaning by forced encounters and scenarios which cannot be avoided, bypassed, or even significantly delayed. Usually extremely transparent because the only reason the path exists, and is as long as it is, is to delay the player from reaching the end point and completing an objective.
4. The copy-paste. This literally involves game designers using the same level portions or layout again, and again, and again, in order to create two or three times the amount of content for almost no effort whatsoever. This can apply to sections in an individual level, or multiple levels that share the same layouts.

Neverwinter Nights, unfortunately, frequently uses all three of these

Proof-read your opus before releasing it to the adoring masses, sea!

With regards to narrative time-wasting, I think the most consistently irritating way of padding out the game is the unnecessary shifting of the goalposts to delay the end of very basic locate-this-plot-coupon story arcs (and as a result force in more compulsory, linear content), which Obsidian in particular used to make a bad habit of (I'm thinking vast swathes of NWN2/Nar Shaddaa). Player must complete three tasks to reach the Macguffin -> Player does so, reaches MacGuffin -> oh, no, that treacherous NPC has stolen the MacGuffin before the PC could use it! -> PC tries to go after the MacGuffin again but then the NPC with the map to the MacGuffin gets kidnapped by some other people and needs rescuing -> A local crime boss will help the PC find out where the MacGuffin's been taken, but only if they complete three tasks...

It's storytelling-as-treading-water, and the game ends up with a simple plot dragged out and overstretched to the extent that you start to resent it.

 

[tuluse]

the repetitive nature also leads to, yes, repetitive gameplay as well as repetitive storytelling.

So it's one of the few Bioware games where the themes of the narrative are supported by the gameplay.

Edit: What's with the back tracking appeasement at the end of the article? decline of sea.

 

[aris]

I just put down my extended thoughts on Neverwinter Nights:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20130215/186781/Dont_Waste_My_Time.php

Worship me, peons!

I'm glad you recognize that NWN was one of the all time lows as a single player experience of bioware. Too many people perceive bioware as a company that was godly in the past, but has suddenly become bad after EA took over. Not true. BG1 was not a good game, BG2 was, NWN was a horrible single player game and one that immensly disappointed me after playing BG2, even as a teenager, KOTOR was decent and jade empire wasn't actually that bad and had an overall better story than KOTOR if you ask me, DA:O is close to the best bioware has made though I'd still say that the BG2 was much better, and then with ME2 and ME3 as well as DA2, well, we know the story. Point is, bioware is an uneven developer, so is bethesda (the games before morrowind weren't excellent), that's why I still have som shreds of hope for DA3.

 

[Lilura]

BG1 was not a good game, BG2 was,

Pardon?