Information Plot vs. Play: Chris Avellone, Ken Levine, and David Gaider PAX Panel Report

[Sacculina]

The problem is 1) in DA1 there is no one there to tell the templar side of the story, and we CONSTANTLY have Meredith bitching about the templar and talking about how much she and her mom love killing the templar. Her and her boobs are supposed to win the argument.

...

However, to the best of my recollection, you had to go through the whole game suffering this idiocy and dealing with Meredith bitching about the injustice of it all over and over again. Once I got that old lady mage in my party, I tired to kill Meredith - which I COULD NOT DO. Choice?!

I think you mean Morrigan here. Meredith was the templar knight commander in Dragon Age 2.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

My favorite game is: V:FC

(Volourn: Fuck City)

 

[Anthony Davis]

The problem is 1) in DA1 there is no one there to tell the templar side of the story, and we CONSTANTLY have Meredith bitching about the templar and talking about how much she and her mom love killing the templar. Her and her boobs are supposed to win the argument.

...

However, to the best of my recollection, you had to go through the whole game suffering this idiocy and dealing with Meredith bitching about the injustice of it all over and over again. Once I got that old lady mage in my party, I tired to kill Meredith - which I COULD NOT DO. Choice?!

I think you mean Morrigan here. Meredith was the templar knight commander in Dragon Age 2.

You are correct.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Don't you like AP, SOZ, and DS3? if so, youa rne't that picky. :D

I bought and played DA1 and ME1 also and I did like them, I just didn't think they deserved the slobbering glowing praise they received.

I could write a long post of what I did like about them, but there ha been enough praise already.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Just a quick point that isn't on-issue, but the 'Gaydar' calls make me want to say this. I know that most of the time now, 'gay' isn't a reference to sexual orientation, and that if someone IS homophobic (which can be pretty rampant in GD) then they're not going to be convinced by someone's whiteknight post on the internet. But most of us here like it when developers who have made games that we like (or even games we don't) come to visit. Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is gay - and Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is close to the Codex's favourite developer (even if some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the guy is mostly a programmer, not a designer).

I'd hate to think that someone like that would be driven away from posting here because people can't get creative with their insults.

 

[Jaesun]

r00fles!

 

[Marsal]

Just a quick point that isn't on-issue, but the 'Gaydar' calls make me want to say this. I know that most of the time now, 'gay' isn't a reference to sexual orientation, and that if someone IS homophobic (which can be pretty rampant in GD) then they're not going to be convinced by someone's whiteknight post on the internet. But most of us here like it when developers who have made games that we like (or even games we don't) come to visit. Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is gay - and Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is close to the Codex's favourite developer (even if some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the guy is mostly a programmer, not a designer).

I'd hate to think that someone like that would be driven away from posting here because people can't get creative with their insults.

RPG Codex doesn't scale to your level.

 

[Commissar Draco]

it is simple Tim Cain is not gay, and Gaydar is. Insult has as much to to do with sexual orientation as calling someone lame with being cripple. And beside Tim Cain is Adult person and can defend his ass - no pun intended - Himself.

 

[DwarvenFood]

I almost thought Azrael was defending Gaider because of Baldur's Gate 2, but still, I do see a bit of a point in his post nevertheless.

 

[Kz3r0]

Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is gay - and Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is close to the Codex's favourite developer (even if some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the guy is mostly a programmer, not a designer).

I'd hate to think that someone like that would be driven away from posting here because people can't get creative with their insults.

Do you realize that many people here love Arcanum because you can impersonate the perfect White, Misogynist, Racist, Classist Victorian Gentleman?

 

[Malpercio]

"Do you remember nothing of it? Is there nothing in your heart that remembers love? Is there nothing within you that remembers our love? What we once shared before this obsession doomed you, Codex?"

 

[Pegultagol]

Ever since that dead ferret of a hairpiece perched on top of his head, he let it all hang out, inhibitions gone.

 

[Aeschylus]

He writes good characters... well except for that Meredith crap. I liked Alistair, which was at least an interesting twist on the comic relief, and Shale was neat because, hey, he's golem.

Ferret is a nice and generous guy and he is a great DM.


My WHOLE problem with Dragon Age that made it INCREDIBLY difficult to engage and enjoy the story was the whole mages versus the templar crap.

It seems that the designers, most of the designers, were going out of their way to say hey, the templar are jack booted thugs who are unfairly restraining and killing mages that may or may not be corrupted by chaos blood magic. I think most designers wanted the player to at best side with the mages, and at worst, find moral equivalence with the mages and the templar.

The problem is 1) in DA1 there is no one there to tell the templar side of the story, and we CONSTANTLY have Meredith bitching about the templar and talking about how much she and her mom love killing the templar. Her and her boobs are supposed to win the argument.

However in the game, the templar are ALWAYS RIGHT. Mages are like man... those templar sure are hard on us because every time one of us dabbles in bloodmagic, dozens of innocents get horribly mutilated and murdered. Yeah... you know what we should do? We should totally throw off the yoke of the templar by dabbling in blood magic so that we can defeat them OH GOD LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE DONE!

Enter the templar who have to clean up mess after mess created by these idiots.

However, to the best of my recollection, you had to go through the whole game suffering this idiocy and dealing with Meredith bitching about the injustice of it all over and over again. Once I got that old lady mage in my party, I tired to kill Meredith - which I COULD NOT DO. Choice?!

I just found all the "politics" insufferable and completely lacking in subtlety.

I dunno, it sounds like you were pretty EMOTIONALLY ENGAGED there. Hate is an emotion too!

 

[Anthony Davis]

"Do you remember nothing of it? Is there nothing in your heart that remembers love? Is there nothing within you that remembers our love? What we once shared before this obsession doomed you, Codex?"

One of my all time favorite games. Maybe that's what it is... I feel like he is such an amazingly talented individual, but some of the stuff in DA and ME I just couldn't connect with. Millions of other people did, so maybe the problem is with me.

 

[Anthony Davis]

He writes good characters... well except for that Meredith crap. I liked Alistair, which was at least an interesting twist on the comic relief, and Shale was neat because, hey, he's golem.

Ferret is a nice and generous guy and he is a great DM.


My WHOLE problem with Dragon Age that made it INCREDIBLY difficult to engage and enjoy the story was the whole mages versus the templar crap.

It seems that the designers, most of the designers, were going out of their way to say hey, the templar are jack booted thugs who are unfairly restraining and killing mages that may or may not be corrupted by chaos blood magic. I think most designers wanted the player to at best side with the mages, and at worst, find moral equivalence with the mages and the templar.

The problem is 1) in DA1 there is no one there to tell the templar side of the story, and we CONSTANTLY have Meredith bitching about the templar and talking about how much she and her mom love killing the templar. Her and her boobs are supposed to win the argument.

However in the game, the templar are ALWAYS RIGHT. Mages are like man... those templar sure are hard on us because every time one of us dabbles in bloodmagic, dozens of innocents get horribly mutilated and murdered. Yeah... you know what we should do? We should totally throw off the yoke of the templar by dabbling in blood magic so that we can defeat them OH GOD LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE DONE!

Enter the templar who have to clean up mess after mess created by these idiots.

However, to the best of my recollection, you had to go through the whole game suffering this idiocy and dealing with Meredith bitching about the injustice of it all over and over again. Once I got that old lady mage in my party, I tired to kill Meredith - which I COULD NOT DO. Choice?!

I just found all the "politics" insufferable and completely lacking in subtlety.

I dunno, it sounds like you were pretty EMOTIONALLY ENGAGED there. Hate is an emotion too!

I don't hate DA... I hated some aspects of it like the Mage vs. Templar idiocy.


I see what you're saying though and I concede it is possible that MY response was one of the predicted outcomes from Mr. Gaider. Maybe he is playing me like a fiddle when I play DA and foam at the mouth over Morrigan and the mages.


Well played Mr. Gaider... well played.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Just a quick point that isn't on-issue, but the 'Gaydar' calls make me want to say this. I know that most of the time now, 'gay' isn't a reference to sexual orientation, and that if someone IS homophobic (which can be pretty rampant in GD) then they're not going to be convinced by someone's whiteknight post on the internet. But most of us here like it when developers who have made games that we like (or even games we don't) come to visit. Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is gay - and Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is close to the Codex's favourite developer (even if some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the guy is mostly a programmer, not a designer).

I'd hate to think that someone like that would be driven away from posting here because people can't get creative with their insults.

Tim Cain is actually, in addition to being an amazing programmer, and incredibly talented designer too. The only thing I think he cannot do is art. Now watch him open a gallery or something to prove to me that he can do art too.

Tim Cain would be a great project director I think, he has such a great personality, and his breadth of knowledge is amazing.


I do think you guys should take care sometimes with how you phrase things. I know, most of the time you are just letting your inner 8th grader out, and usually it's with hysterical results. We all enjoy it from time to time and being absurd can be a great way to make point, and I think it is one of the reasons people love and hate the codex.

However if you think someone's orientation, or weight has ANY bearing on them being a good and wonderful person, you are mistaken. If you think it means they can't be amazing game developers, you are again, mistaken.

Anyone here is free to criticize someone's work. Even though I don't think ME and DA are Mr. Gaider's best work, I am clearly in the minority on that opinion. It also doesn't change the fact that he is immensely more successful that I ever will be, and he is far more talented than I ever will be. It still doesn't make him perfect and I think he should strive to get out of his comfort zone, professionally at least.

Just remember the rules of debating, if you have to resort to personal attacks, you lose a point.

 

[Aeschylus]

I don't have DA... I hated some aspects of it like the Mage vs. Templar idiocy.

I see what you're saying though and I concede it is possible that MY response was one of the predicted outcomes from Mr. Gaider. Maybe he is playing me like a fiddle when I play DA and foam at the mouth over Morrigan and the mages.

Well played Mr. Gaider... well played.

Like a fiddle indeed. I actually sympathize with you, in that I think that the whole mage/templar thing is irritating and not really well formulated. It sort of feels like the overarching plot of a procedural TV show, except shoehorned in at every possible juncture. Oh, and RE: your previous post, I'm pretty sure Gaider had nothing at all to do with ME.

Anyway, in general I find myself agreeing mostly with MCA on this one, if only because I usually find it very hard to get into video game narratives. I do tend to enjoy it when narratives are build up around gameplay and environment as in something like Bastion. Extended cutscenes should be eternally abolished -- it's a game, not a movie damnit.

 

[Mangoose]

Honestly, shoving plot at the player isn't even promoted in normal novel writing. Has everyone forgotten the age-old axiom, "show, don't tell"? Ideas should never be blatantly told to the player. Conflict should not be blatantly obvious to the player.

What Avellone says is not just right for video game writing, it's fucking true for every sort of writing. Interesting ideas, moralities, conflicts, etc. that are praised in the classics are written with subtlety, because it's not just the ideas that are important - what is equally important is the reader interpreting and understanding those ideas by piecing together the subtle elements in the novel. It's the reader agency that allows for those abstract ideas to gradually sink into the mind, so that they can be formulated into their intuition. This patience is what separates good writers from shitty fantasy genre writers.

Show, don't tell.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I don't have DA... I hated some aspects of it like the Mage vs. Templar idiocy.

I see what you're saying though and I concede it is possible that MY response was one of the predicted outcomes from Mr. Gaider. Maybe he is playing me like a fiddle when I play DA and foam at the mouth over Morrigan and the mages.

Well played Mr. Gaider... well played.

Like a fiddle indeed. I actually sympathize with you, in that I think that the whole mage/templar thing is irritating and not really well formulated. It sort of feels like the overarching plot of a procedural TV show, except shoehorned in at every possible juncture. Oh, and RE: your previous post, I'm pretty sure Gaider had nothing at all to do with ME.

Anyway, in general I find myself agreeing mostly with MCA on this one, if only because I usually find it very hard to get into video game narratives. I do tend to enjoy it when narratives are build up around gameplay and environment as in something like Bastion. Extended cutscenes should be eternally abolished -- it's a game, not a movie damnit.

Wow, I'm a poor typist. I HAVE DA, I don't HATE DA.

Oh, I had no idea he wasn't involved with ME. They feel so similar with many of the characters and story elements.

Ok, in the interest of being fair. ME had two of my favorite cinematic scenes. One, punching the reporter out, great.

Two, when you have Wrex with you and you are going in to see that criminal guy that Wrex has the bounty on, and he warns you, "Shepard, if you take me in there I'm going to shoot that guy." I was like yeah, yeah, let's go. After I was done talking with the dude, Wrex walked up and shot him.

I was like, "well alright...you did warn me and clearly you are an alien frog thing of your word."



Oh... in DA, who wrote the giant dude who can join your party... the guy who murdered all those people because his sword was missing or something like that? Man...its been a long time.

 

[Saark]

Just a quick point that isn't on-issue, but the 'Gaydar' calls make me want to say this. I know that most of the time now, 'gay' isn't a reference to sexual orientation, and that if someone IS homophobic (which can be pretty rampant in GD) then they're not going to be convinced by someone's whiteknight post on the internet. But most of us here like it when developers who have made games that we like (or even games we don't) come to visit. Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is gay - and Tim Cain, as far as I am aware, is close to the Codex's favourite developer (even if some people can't seem to get their head around the fact that the guy is mostly a programmer, not a designer).

I'd hate to think that someone like that would be driven away from posting here because people can't get creative with their insults.

Point taken, but on the other hand why would I want someone to join any discussion if he's turned off by something so childish? He probably ain't going to be able to respond to some valid criticism either because he thinks its mean to say that dialogue or character XYZ are shit (I would of course elaborate my point). I mean, these guys most certainly laugh their asses off when they think about DLCs and how many people buy them even though no extra work went into them after the game got released (only a few DLC are like that, I know). So I am entitled to do the same just by changing a single letter. And I like it.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

I'm not following Bioware's PR stunts and have (with the exception of DA:O) skipped all of their games since KotOR, hence I'm not sure whether or not Gaider deserves the flak he's getting around here, but his writing was never the main problem of any of the games I played. I'd actually say that the one game he's listed as the lead designer on (Hordes of the Underdark), was, design-wise, one of Bioware's best. I don't agree with his position on how storytelling should work in games, but it's not like that has not been the trademark Bioware blueprint since forever. All in all, I'm profoundly uninterested in any future Bioware games, Gaider or no Gaider, but if he ever decided to make something like his own NWN module, I'd give it a shot (not that it's ever going to happen).

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not following Bioware's PR stunts and have (with the exception of DA:O) skipped all of their games since KotOR, hence I'm not sure whether or not Gaider deserves the flak he's getting around here, but his writing was never the main problem of any of the games I played. I'd actually say that the one game he's listed as the lead designer on (Hordes of the Underdark), was, design-wise, one of Bioware's best. I don't agree with his position on how storytelling should work in games, but it's not like that has not been the trademark Bioware blueprint since forever. All in all, I'm profoundly uninterested in any future Bioware games, Gaider or no Gaider, but if he ever decided to make something like his own NWN module, I'd give it a shot (not that it's ever going to happen).

I agree with this.

Gaider is to Bioware what Todd Howard is to Bethesda. A figurehead that's fun to fling shit at, but deep down we know he's not the true source of the decline.

 

[Saark]

Of course he isn't, but he should be the one to acknowledge the people that do good stuff, and give them more to write, isn't he? At least that's what I thought people in his position do, yet we still only have a few minor characters or scenes that are pretty well written and thought through. Also, he would try to change something if the actual style his studio writes isn't what he wanted to see come out of it. Unfortunately it seems like it doesn't bother him enough, who can blame him he's making a living with this stuff. I'd still expect someone who is utterly dissatisfied with how his company works to try to look for some other workplace, and someone like him sure wouldn't have to look for another studio very long (he'd probably get a downgrade on his position though) so I have to suppose that he's fine with it.

 

[Volourn]

"I could write a long post of what I did like about them, but there ha been enough praise already."

Here on the Codex? nah. Rest of the net don't matter only the Codex.

People exaggerate the 'awfulness' of BIO games (ME3 ending as prime example) comapred to other games not the other way around. Any other comapny made ME3 no way does the ending get shitted on as bad or as much.

Nothing wrong with criticizing ME3 or DA. Heck, I easily say ME3 is the worst of the series for mutliple reasons - none of which include the ending.

Also, as much as I make fun of SOZ, AP, and DS3 9which I haven't played the full game yet nor plan to .. dmeow as a turnoff)... OBS did make the fun NWN2 and MOTB as far as the FAR SUPERIOR FO:NV.

ON TOPIC: Eh.. Talkers gonna talk.

 

[Anthony Davis]

"I could write a long post of what I did like about them, but there ha been enough praise already."

Here on the Codex? nah. Rest of the net don't matter only the Codex.

People exaggerate the 'awfulness' of BIO games (ME3 ending as prime example) comapred to other games not the other way around. Any other comapny made ME3 no way does the ending get shitted on as bad or as much.

Nothing wrong with criticizing ME3 or DA. Heck, I easily say ME3 is the worst of the series for mutliple reasons - none of which include the ending.

Also, as much as I make fun of SOZ, AP, and DS3 9which I haven't played the full game yet nor plan to .. dmeow as a turnoff)... OBS did make the fun NWN2 and MOTB as far as the FAR SUPERIOR FO:NV.

ON TOPIC: Eh.. Talkers gonna talk.

At the PAX East panel, Bioware seems like they have learned from DA2 and are swinging back to light side. Equipment for party companions, better area design, choices that matter, etc.

We'll see, but that is certainly hopeful.