Information Plot vs. Play: Chris Avellone, Ken Levine, and David Gaider PAX Panel Report

[Aeschylus]

At the PAX East panel, Bioware seems like they have learned from DA2 and are swinging back to light side. Equipment for party companions, better area design, choices that matter, etc.

We'll see, but that is certainly hopeful.

Depends how firm a grip EA has on their balls. I don't share the outright contempt for Bioware that many around here do -- maybe because I don't care about or follow the Mass Effect games -- but DA2 definitely felt like a lazy, cash-grabbing middle finger. It will take a pretty big swing for them to redeem themselves.

 

[Black]

At the PAX East panel, Bioware seems like they have learned from DA2

I thought you were smarter than that!

 

[Roguey]

Oh... in DA, who wrote the giant dude who can join your party... the guy who murdered all those people because his sword was missing or something like that? Man...its been a long time.

Mary Kirby. Y'know she once wrote a blog post about ""why Ravel Puzzlewell is a better villain than The Transcendent One, and therefore, why the story of Torment failed" but she deleted her blog after I linked to it on the Codex and I still regret having just enough foresight to save that particular sentence but not enough to save the article in its entirety (this changed my nature of course).

 

[Spectacle]

At the PAX East panel, Bioware seems like they have learned from DA2 and are swinging back to light side. Equipment for party companions, better area design, choices that matter, etc.

We'll see, but that is certainly hopeful.

Depends how firm a grip EA has on their balls. I don't share the outright contempt for Bioware that many around here do -- maybe because I don't care about or follow the Mass Effect games -- but DA2 definitely felt like a lazy, cash-grabbing middle finger. It will take a pretty big swing for them to redeem themselves.

I'm willing to bet EA is backing these changes. No matter how clueless the suits at EA are about game quality, they have to know that something went wrong with DA2 from how sharply the sales dropped off after the first week. If a sequel sells less than the original, making the first game more like the 3rd game seems like a natural business decision.

 

[deus101]

This is uncanny...I just posted this on the wasteland thread...MCA enforced my views about game narratives must not be structured as a story.

You are playing a GAME!
Getting emotionally involved with NPC...(NPCS FOR FUCKS SAKE!) just SCREAMS! that you are in need of real literature.

Good writing for RPG's are the one that isn't overdone, I don't want anymore shitty DA, Mass effect writer wankery!

Why exactly getting emotionally involved in a game with good writing automatically equates to Very Bad Things for some people, I will never understand. Good writing augments the emotional involvement you feel in a game. NPCs are a delivery system for good writing.

My favorite book is probably Moby-Dick, which is about as universally praised among those "in the know" as a book could be. I still like getting caught up in a game's narrative and meeting three-dimensional characters. I know it's not real, but neither is a TV show, or a movie, or a book. It's all fakery. Assuming for a moment that the quality of game writing is at parity with that of other media (it isn't, but I'm asking you to imagine a world where it is), why not get emotionally involved? Why exactly shouldn't games be made that make you cry, or laugh, or get angry? Why do games have to be any one thing? Movies aren't. Books aren't. TV shows aren't.

Frankly, if you're worried about getting "emotionally involved" with a video game because that's somehow "weird" or "uncool", you might as well sell all your DVDs and books and stuff, because there's no actual difference. It's all emotional investment in a simulacrum.

And trust me, these thoughts have nothing to do with Bioware. Many of their attempts to get me emotionally invested feel forced, weird, and embarassing.to me. But if you think there's something intrinsically wrong with a video game making someone cry, you damn well better come at me with a more convincing argument than "It's a game, and games can't do that, and you're dumb for thinking they can, and adults don't cry over fake things like video games, so there!" Which is just about the most adolescent, immature, stay-outta-my-treehouse mentality I can think of. There is nothing more childish than a longing for "maturity". It's putting on your dad's shoes and clomping around in them so you can look Important like your dad.



If emotion bothers you that much, go play a strategy game.

*chuckle* Yeah, my balls just dropped and i got some weird and confusing thoughts when I'm in the school showers.

My current stance on this is not based on any intrinsic principles that you can't put Knut Hamsun inside a realtime program, its based on almost two decades of observations where games have declined into B-movies with some gameplay tacked on.

Its pragmatism!

And I actually agree with the OP! Gameplay does come first! It's just that good game writing, when I've encountered it, has done nothing but enhance the gameplay.

Yet...Sadly ...the two have become mutually exclusive.
The AAA market has become homogenized. gameplay variation and genre's divides the potential market. And limits the target audience...so they just sell IP, bloat the projects with media content and remove any difficulity and complexity that gives spice to a game.

Thanks to the complete lack of standards coupled with the "self-affirmation-gamer" culture, people are buying games JUST to see how the story ends, its uses the setting from someones favorite movie/book/tvshow(remember all those bland LOTR and other hollywood movie games?).


I'm pretty sure the IP-whoring of Syndicate and Biowares latest "storymode" idea, not to mention how Dice jumped on the singleplayer Die Hard bandwagon.

I'm pretty confident in my assessment of this.
Story and cinematics have become more important then the game itself.


Oh, and you exclude Bioware's refuse as bad writing...well...you are using the very same kinda pitch that inspired it.

And..as I explained to you before...good rpg writing isnt "emotional", "meaningful" and "deep" can it be? yes sometimes with good results, so more accuratly i state that good RPG (or any other games) writing are the one who does not TRY to hard to be, deep, emotional, life fullfilling, nirvana reaching, whatever..
It tries not to overreach...it can be humorous, interesting, eccentric and allowed to be a bit cheesy. and It should be fantastical.
It should also be somewhat simple in all this, not the prose bit but the plot, remember that RPG narrative are meant to be divided up into events, not structured as a story.

OK, now I'm moving into the ideal RPG narrative/modules for the ideal RPG.

Simply put, fallout 1 and 2 did it right.

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1175&start=40
Maybe I wen't a bit overboard about the "Emotions" or whatnot, but DA...even when I approved the game still gave a bad taste on certain aspacts on the story....some scenes and dialouge quite literally made me cringe in my chair.
But that also...has a bit todo with the overuse of cinematics...which is almost BOUND to force feed you bad exposition. (was a paper/article about just that which i keep loosing "what you don't see is what you don't get" something like that.)
I know "don't try so hard" is a bit...out there...but Anthony Davis have you and your inner circle ever talked about writing that becomes to clever for its own good?

 

[Xi]

I tend to like games with less of an emphasis on narrative and more emphasis placed on game play mechanics that I have to wrap my head around. The metagame is so much better than a bland story that every book author does better. However, for the sake of context and purpose, I like a light story that creates a history, culture, and vibe within the game. Beyond that, I personally don't care. Unless we are talking about art, such as PS:T, then I can get behind writing. Even then, the way it was worked into the game became more of a mechanic than a simple narrative.

 

[J_C]

The whole discussion is available on youtube:

 

[Micmu]

MCA should swing around with his left elbow a bit.
Btw. what happened with fatso's toupee? Not cool anymore?

 

[Roguey]

He hasn't worn the rug since 2009. Quickly realized it was a bad idea.