Eternity PoE II: Deadfire Sales Analysis Thread

[Lacrymas]

There are several reasons why prebuffing should be allowed in any rpg.

1) Party based rpgs are, or should be, about preparation first and foremost. Its the best part of them, you recruit a team, with coherent synergies, you gear them up to tackle an adventure, you build them up in such a way that you empower said synergies. pre-buffing is one more element of that.

This is pure conjecture, why are party-based first and foremost RPGs about preparation? This is the first time I see someone say this. And even if they are, why are buffs included? PoE has food buffs, consumable crafting and whore bonuses.

2) Narratively it makes no sense not to be able to. You may as put a transition screen when you start combat, the very rules of reality change as soon as someone wants to attack you. Systems are there to allow the player to interact with the gameworld not to get in the way of it.

Narratively, it doesn't make sense to recover from a sword to the chest, but there you go. There is always something being sacrificed to conform to the combat rules. It's always better to bend reality to make a good combat system than not, if a good combat system is your goal that is. Whether PoE is a good combat system is debatable, but that's besides the point. While it's true that the systems should allow you to interact with the gameworld as much as possible, PoE doesn't really facilitate that, as the interaction with the gameworld is almost non-existent.

3) Its jrpg design. Not being able to cast healing or buffing spells outside of combat is fairly common in jrpgs, its a different design paradigm that i dont want to see seep into western rpgs.

It simply being JRPG design doesn't mean it's automatically bad in every context. Josh's idea was removing pre-buffing from the IE-style foundation and he did it by removing pre-buffing, and I'd say it was successful because it's one of the very, very, very few things you have to actively choose in a battlefield. Well, at least at first, stacking 2 Priests in PoE1 was hilariously OP since they could cast all the buffs very quickly and there was no need to think whether or not to do it. Removing pre-buffing didn't really affect encounter design in PoE, though, and that's one more reason to think the system is disconnected from the actual game as it is being played.

4) Has shit flavor. Spells lasting as long as a fart makes magic feel weightless and as if it only exists with combat purposes.

That isn't really a problem of lack of pre-buffing, it's a problem of number crunching. I think we all agree that PoE's buffs and debuffs are simply annoying due to their short durations and terrible UI. Damaging spells can be cast freely outside of combat and the CYOA sequences allow you to use a lot of spells out of combat. They could've also designed spells that could be used only outside combat, like a non-offensive Charm spell for lowering merchant prices, or something like that. That is a problem of design and not a pre-buffing issue.

5) The opportunity cost can always be there. You can use memorization slots, concentration rules, or another million ways to make people just not default to this behavior instead of an outright ban.

There is no opportunity cost with spells outside of the buffing issue in PoE2 since they removed resting, though. Well, there was no opportunity cost in PoE1 either, because you could rest infinitely.

The matter of fact is that it removed a tedious and time-consuming system that didn't really add anything to the game. And even not entirely, as food buffs and whore bonuses exist.

 

[Lhynn]

This is pure conjecture, why are party-based first and foremost RPGs about preparation? This is the first time I see someone say this. And even if they are, why are buffs included? PoE has food buffs, consumable crafting and whore bonuses.

Just think about it, planning is in an RPGs DNA.
PoE food buffs are shit, consumables are alright and whore bonuses are dumb as fuck.

Narratively, it doesn't make sense to recover from a sword to the chest, but there you go.

This is abstracted as you never getting a sword to the chest until you actually do, and then you die.

There is always something being sacrificed to conform to the combat rules. It's always better to bend reality to make a good combat system than not

Except that they didnt make a good combat system anyway, so your point is completely moot. Also as shown by other games, it is within the realm of possibility to make a good combat system with as few compromises as possible.

Whether PoE is a good combat system is debatable

Its not, its just plain bad.

While it's true that the systems should allow you to interact with the gameworld as much as possible, PoE doesn't really facilitate that, as the interaction with the gameworld is almost non-existent.

Yep, a few spells in BG made it possible to interact with the environment. This is no longer the case in PoE.

It simply being JRPG design doesn't mean it's automatically bad in every context.

Fair.

Josh's idea was removing pre-buffing from the IE-style foundation and he did it by removing pre-buffing

Id say josh has a lot of ideas with some merit that fall flat on their face when they get executed.

and I'd say it was successful

I wouldnt. Especially considering he just replaced it with other forms of prebuffing that are actually more annoying. In PoE 1 stuffing your face with buffs. In PoE2 wasting your god damn time trying to get those bonuses back, or just plain ignoring them. Either way they add nothing and take away a lot of potential interaction.

because it's one of the very, very, very few things you have to actively choose in a battlefield.

Choose? i dont choose anything, i just do the same shit every fight.

I think we all agree that PoE's buffs and debuffs are simply annoying due to their short durations and terrible UI. Damaging spells can be cast freely outside of combat and the CYOA sequences allow you to use a lot of spells out of combat. They could've also designed spells that could be used only outside combat, like a non-offensive Charm spell for lowering merchant prices, or something like that. That is a problem of design and not a pre-buffing issue.

Its a problem with the whole package, elements interact with eachother and one of the effects of banning prebuffing is that spell durations need to be shortened to avoid obvious exploits. Nothing in a game designed in a void. One of the biggest problems with josh is that he horribly misses the mark because he fails at understanding the bigger picture.

There is no opportunity cost with spells outside of the buffing issue in PoE2 since they removed resting, though. Well, there was no opportunity cost in PoE1 either, because you could rest infinitely.

Both horribly designed games that you are willing to admit are horribly designed except for prebuffing because it somehow forces you to "pick what to do with your action carefully". When in BG1 and 2, even with prebuffing you still had to pick your next action carefully.

The matter of fact is that it removed a tedious and time-consuming system

Its only tedious or time consuming when there are too many buffs that stack. And there are ways to avoid or facilitate this, either by making casts outside of combat instant, by setting magical loadouts that go off with a single click outside of a fight, etc. The only thing this clown did was make a more akward, more gamey poorly thought out clone of actual decent games.
And when people actually praise a decision, he goes back on it because "balance".

that didn't really add anything to the game.

Says you, to me it added plenty, a few spells i would have never memorized if i couldnt cast outside of battle come to mind.

And even not entirely, as food buffs and whore bonuses exist.

I ate carrots, i can now run faster and have a bonus to perception!
At least magic was magical, now eating a "tasty dish" can make you an unkillable, regenerating beast on the battlefield. And to think people mocked TSW for magical blowjobs. Now this expensive whore can fuck you into becoming hercules.

 

[Payd Shell]

On the other hand, casting mandatory buffs and debuffs is hardly interesting, especially if there's no downside to it.

I agree with this. I always say that prebuffing should have specific disadvantages (ie, raise something, lower something else), so that it is only used where it actually fits the tactics/situation. For buffing during the battle this is not as important, there is already the cost of not attacking instead.

I think some of the modal abilities from PoE are a pretty good solution to the problem. Something like Savage attack which raises your damage but lowers speed for melee attacks. As far as in-combat buffs are concerned, I'm not sure. Sure you're going to spend some ressources on casting them, even if it's just the time needed to cast them but generally buffs and debuffs are a no-brainer. The only question is if the fight lasts long enough to get something out of a buff or if it would be more efficient to deal some damage directly instead. And then there's buff stacking which is also a problem in and of itself. So instead of buffs that last for a long amount of time or buffs that last for 5 seconds I'd personally like to see pre buffs in the form of modifications like the modals in PoE and combat buffs to last the entire encounter but they shouldn't stack, meaning one beneficial effect only.

If there are other ressources involved like per rest uses the decision is much more interesting, however I haven't seen a game execute the rest function properly, maybe Kingmaker will do it right.

 

[Lacrymas]

Both horribly designed games that you are willing to admit are horribly designed except for prebuffing because it somehow forces you to "pick what to do with your action carefully". When in BG1 and 2, even with prebuffing you still had to pick your next action carefully.

It adds another layer of choice that isn't a gimmick, especially in DF where casting a buff takes away one of your very limited casts, and that's why I value it so highly. It becomes a natural part of the combat and that's good, as opposed to bullshit like Penetration. Josh's problem, and the reason PoE's combat is so nonsensical, is he's trying/forced to appeal to the lowest common denominator who will play his games, but does so through telemetry and abstract theorizing. And the end result is self-evident, a combat system that feels like it's designed by a robot for a statistical average. It wouldn't have been anything else had he not "taken away" pre-buffing. The encounter design also doesn't look like it was meant for this combat system, so it doesn't play to its strengths. The webbed mess PoE is is really a thing to behold.

 

[aweigh]

Tyranny made everything per-encounter and it worked just fine. It was less tacti-cool sure, but mostly because of only 4 party members and because it had shit enc. design due to the way the game was structured.

I actually thought they'd simply make everything per-enc in PoE2.

EDIT: also in Tyranny they made item-usage "instant" instead of PoE's "quick", which means you didn't have micro so much and just be able to gulp a potion or use a poison on ur weapon and still be able to attack or move. It also means that it had "sort of" pre-buffing in that you can have everyone gulp a buffing potion of some sort (or poison their weapon) immediately upon combat start as "instant" actions. If you wanted to.

 

[Akratus]

Shouldn't have called it Pillars of Eternity 2. Should have called it Pillars of Eternity: Pirate Booty.

 

[Azarkon]

No pre-buffing is fine, it actually makes you think whether to buff or do something else. Having an opportunity cost is enough.

On the other hand, this attitude is what led to the tedious combat routine in Pillars of Eternity, where you were encouraged to pause the game repeatedly at the start of a fight to get your effects up, thus breaking the flow of combat.

By contrast, in Baldur's Gate, since it took place before combat, combat itself was more fluid and you could just watch it happen, and adjust as needed.

It's a style issue, but it always felt more clean and less artificial to do it before hand - after all, it's what the characters themselves would do.

 

[Lacrymas]

You are encouraged to pause PoE for a lot of things, yet you aren't encouraged to buff yourself in every fight, it's a legitimate choice to not buff, especially since it consumes one of your limited spells for the level. In the IE games, it's not, you are always playing sub-optimally and I'd say 'incorrectly' if you aren't pre-buffing.

 

[aweigh]

I mean, y'all do realize that pre-buffing is in PoE by way of food right? Just like in Final Fantasy 15.

 

[Lhynn]

It adds another layer of choice that isn't a gimmick, etc.

Stop with the bullshit excuses. Fact of the matter is that it touches upon a lot of ingame elements just to keep players from doing something they should be able to do.
Sawyer always does this, he treats a symptom in the most knee jerk way possible because he fails to identify the root cause of the problem.

The main problem is that the design philosphy behind this game is the one that we find in mobile games and mobas, not actual cRPGs.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not a bullshit excuse, it's a legitimate thing! If there is one thing to take away from this whole debacle and influence further attempts at RTwP RPGs, it is this. Josh managed to add a combat dimension that was missing in the IE games without resorting to gimmicks (like elevation bonuses for ranged characters). It doesn't take away anything that can't be added back in a different way. Just design non-combat spells. And "it takes away something players should be able to do" is another conjecture, the mere fact I don't see it like that is enough to cast doubt on that claim.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

I'll grant that pre-buffing is better for feelings of immersion and player freedom, but it's a such a pain in the ass and boring after a while. Maybe if there were scripts to do it though, then I'd like it.

 

[Lhynn]

Maybe if there were scripts to do it though, then I'd like it.

Yep, thats one way of solving it. But as i said, there are others. Concentration mechanics, 0 casting time ooc, specific purpose buffs instead of all purpose ones, etc.

Lacrymas no combat dimension was added, action economy has always been a thing.

 

[Trashos]

There are several reasons why prebuffing should be allowed in any rpg.

1) Party based rpgs are, or should be, about preparation first and foremost. Its the best part of them, you recruit a team, with coherent synergies, you gear them up to tackle an adventure, you build them up in such a way that you empower said synergies. pre-buffing is one more element of that.

This is pure conjecture, why are party-based first and foremost RPGs about preparation? This is the first time I see someone say this. And even if they are, why are buffs included? PoE has food buffs, consumable crafting and whore bonuses.

Come on, man, of course highly replayable RPGs with rich systems are about preparation to a very large degree. We prepare our build, we prepare our gear before specific challenges, we take skills/perks just so that we can get another perk later, we plan the order with which we tackle quests etc.

 

[fantadomat]

I'll grant that pre-buffing is better for feelings of immersion and player freedom, but it's a such a pain in the ass and boring after a while. Maybe if there were scripts to do it though, then I'd like it.

Yeah,because combat in PoE games is so entertaining without it. Pre-buffing is something you rarely,only when you are in for a hard fight. You don't go around pre-buffing for a fight with a bunch of kobalts or goblins.

PS:This thread was supposed to be about sales not about pre-buffing.

 

[aweigh]

A system designed with "pre-buffing" in mind would probably utilize passives or 'activates-when-struck' type of thing.

Also spreading "pre-buffing" into the actual itemization is better, imo. (And I don't mean making a dumb food system).

I don't know, which sounds better to you guys: an item that gives Defense vs Minor Words of Power, a spell that you have to cast to get that buff and let's assume this is a good early game buff so you'll be casting it a lot, or some sort of passive/ability hybrid thing that either activates something similar when a scenario requires it or perhaps simply a modal?

personally I'd distribute the ones that I already know will be high-usage into passives/modals, leave the mid-game ones as cast-ables, and ancilliary ones that that are useful but very rarely come into play as gear.

 

[Sensuki]

There are several reasons why prebuffing should be allowed in any rpg.

1) Party based rpgs are, or should be, about preparation first and foremost. Its the best part of them, you recruit a team, with coherent synergies, you gear them up to tackle an adventure, you build them up in such a way that you empower said synergies. pre-buffing is one more element of that.

2) Narratively it makes no sense not to be able to. You may as put a transition screen when you start combat, the very rules of reality change as soon as someone wants to attack you. Systems are there to allow the player to interact with the gameworld not to get in the way of it.

3) Its jrpg design. Not being able to cast healing or buffing spells outside of combat is fairly common in jrpgs, its a different design paradigm that i dont want to see seep into western rpgs.

4) Has shit flavor. Spells lasting as long as a fart makes magic feel weightless and as if it only exists with combat purposes.

5) The opportunity cost can always be there. You can use memorization slots, concentration rules, or another million ways to make people just not default to this behavior instead of an outright ban.

I disagree with 1) and agree with the rest. I believe in-combat decision making should be more important than preparation.

Pre-buffing can also be a waste of a spell because you may not necessarily need the pre-buff, or you may mis-cast it depending on its duration (some spells had short durations) and if you cast them at the beginning of a pre-buff chain, it would expire either before combat, or mid combat.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

So how dead is Obshitian and how dead is PoE3? I was deeply unimpressed by Deadfire's writing, it seems like a weak developer now.

 

[aweigh]

they're having a sale tomorrow of the office equipment.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Pre-buffing is one of those things that makes sense, but isn't any fun in practice. It only works when potions are very powerful and hard to attain.

 

[aweigh]

buffing in rpgs should feel like when goku is powering up to go super saiyan

 

[frajaq]

pre-buffing is ok, should just make it limited buffs per-character. It could be a different layer of mechanic even if the devs bothered (different classes have different number of buff slots, you could discover new buffs as you explore the game etc)

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Josh is primary, or only, interested in P&P. He has released a P&P system for most games he did the design for. He is a DM first and foremost. That's his viewpoint.

In P&P, nobody commands a team. You have individuals, who do as they see fit. They really don't like pre-battle buffing, because they cannot reload if they did it wrong. Josh doesn't like it, because he would have to tell them up front that there's a battle incoming. And they really want something they can do each round. "I swing my sword" doesn't cut it.

So, how are you going to put that into a user-interface? Easy. MMOGs do this all the time. Make lots of active abilities, to provide choice. Give everything a cool down, from seconds to battles or even days, and put all the buttons on a ribbon.

But out-of-battle abilities are problematic: how are you going to make a ribbon full of buttons, or a list with discussion options that covers all the things those P&P players come up with? You cannot. Obfuscate it.

 

[Flou]

Sales report time!

Deadfire is on page 32 on Gogs best selling list.
Definitive edition is on page 39.
Season pass on page 45.

 

[Krzysiek]

Sales report time!

Deadfire is on page 32 on Gogs best selling list.
Definitive edition is on page 39.
Season pass on page 45.

Worthless information.