PoE plot analysis.

[Irenaeus]

It's definitely Thaos who causes the biawac and the Glanfathan attack (the latter indirectly), but your illness and being there in the first place seems very random.

It's also why the story is good.

 

[AN4RCHID]

They aren't coincidences. Thaos is in the ruins at the very beginning. He may very well be the cause of your illness, maybe not. But it is his defiling of the ruins that cause the Glanfathans to attack your caravan. The machine is likely the cause of the biawac. You survive because you have a "strong soul" that hasn't been torn to pieces through the ages as others' have.

The only weak links are maybe the initial sickness and maybe the cause of the biawac. The rest is explicitly made clear.

Right. You just happen to be the only person anyone in the game has ever heard of surviving a biawac because you have a "Strong Soul", and you just happen to have personally known the antagonist in a past life, and you just happen to be at exactly the right spot at exactly the right time to not only be caught in the biawac which leads to your awakening because your speshul soul but also get awakened at just the right moment when you're looking at Thaos to be reminded of your past life experience so that you know exactly who to chase to solve all your problems and conveniently save the Dyrwud at the same time. Oh and by the way there's a falling tree that stops your caravan and you have diarrhea even though it doesn't really have any status affect and it's never brought up after the first dialogue and then you get ambushed and the biawac happens at the exact moment you finish killing the ambushers, even though none of this actually has any affect on the plot and the story might as well just have started with the biawac. Totally not random.

 

[Irenaeus]

Coincidences are great.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Right. You just happen to be the only person anyone in the game has ever heard of surviving a biawac because you have a "Strong Soul",

Doesn't other people have survived a Biawac before?
Every time you mention it, people say you're very lucky, but not "holy shit, this is unheard of!"

 

[AN4RCHID]

As long as they're hand-waving your survival they could have just said that you survive because of your connection to Thaos and soul memory of the similar machine. Still hand-wavey but it's better than making the main character a special snowflake in two different ways, one of which is never relevant to the story again.

And why does Thaos have to physically be at the ruins if you have a vision of him when you awaken anyway? They could have cut that out completely and just had some Leaden Key agents there.

If I were rewriting the intro, the caravan would be camping on the side of the road in totally good health with a clear road ahead. Biawac starts and forces the whole party into the ruins, at which point you can have the glanfathans attack which follows logically from entering the temple. You, Heodan and Calisca figure out that someone else has been in the temple and track them to ask for help, which naturally leads you to the Leaden Key starting up the machine - Heodan and Calisca die and you have your vision of Thaos and set out to find him / investigate the Leaden Key to get answers. I don't mind a coincidence to get the plot rolling, but there's just too much unnecessary fat at the beginning of PoE.

 

[Ninjerk]

Right. You just happen to be the only person anyone in the game has ever heard of surviving a biawac because you have a "Strong Soul",

Doesn't other people have survived a Biawac before?
Every time you mention it, people say you're very lucky, but not "holy shit, this is unheard of!"

The magistrate actually says if there had been a biawac you wouldn't be standing there.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Right. You just happen to be the only person anyone in the game has ever heard of surviving a biawac because you have a "Strong Soul",

Doesn't other people have survived a Biawac before?
Every time you mention it, people say you're very lucky, but not "holy shit, this is unheard of!"

The magistrate actually says if there had been a biawac you wouldn't be standing there.

True, didn't remember that.

But still, I think what I'm saying is accurate, you can survive a Biawac, it's just extremely rare (and biwacs aren't very common to begin with), but I can't point out specific in game dialogs to show case this.

 

[themadhatter11401]

As long as they're hand-waving your survival they could have just said that you survive because of your connection to Thaos and soul memory of the similar machine. Still hand-wavey but it's better than making the main character a special snowflake in two different ways, one of which is never relevant to the story again.

And why does Thaos have to physically be at the ruins if you have a vision of him when you awaken anyway? They could have cut that out completely and just had some Leaden Key agents there.

If I were rewriting the intro, the caravan would be camping on the side of the road in totally good health with a clear road ahead. Biawac starts and forces the whole party into the ruins, at which point you can have the glanfathans attack which follows logically from entering the temple. You, Heodan and Calisca figure out that someone else has been in the temple and track them to ask for help, which naturally leads you to the Leaden Key starting up the machine - Heodan and Calisca die and you have your vision of Thaos and set out to find him / investigate the Leaden Key to get answers. I don't mind a coincidence to get the plot rolling, but there's just too much unnecessary fat at the beginning of PoE.

You're basically taking one coincidence (crossing paths with Thaos near the Engwithan ruins) and taking every consequence of that as a separate coincidence.

The magistrate doesn't believe you survived a biawac. The dwarf in the tree explains that sometimes (as in, more than once) a person with a strong soul can resist the effect of a biawac.

 

[Irenaeus]

Right. You just happen to be the only person anyone in the game has ever heard of surviving a biawac because you have a "Strong Soul",

Doesn't other people have survived a Biawac before?
Every time you mention it, people say you're very lucky, but not "holy shit, this is unheard of!"

The magistrate actually says if there had been a biawac you wouldn't be standing there.

Not sure if you notived, the magistrate is a faggot.

 

[AN4RCHID]

You're basically taking one coincidence (crossing paths with Thaos near the Engwithan ruins) and taking every consequence of that as a separate coincidence.

The magistrate doesn't believe you survived a biawac. The dwarf in the tree explains that sometimes (as in, more than once) a person with a strong soul can resist the effect of a biawac.

Dude, bullshit. First of all, just because someone survived a biawac "more than once" in the game's lore doesn't make it not an ass-pull.

And it's far from just a single coincidence. Running into Thaos in the ruins has no connection whatsoever to having known Thaos before which has no connection whatsoever to having a supah soul. And the point isn't just that there are coincidences, it's that they take those coincidence way further than is needed for the plot (why did Thaos even have to be at the ruins?), and also include a bunch of meaningless noise at the beginning that has no purpose for being there and could just as well have happened in any order or not at all (e.g. diarrhea, the ambush).

 

[Ninjerk]

You're basically taking one coincidence (crossing paths with Thaos near the Engwithan ruins) and taking every consequence of that as a separate coincidence.

The magistrate doesn't believe you survived a biawac. The dwarf in the tree explains that sometimes (as in, more than once) a person with a strong soul can resist the effect of a biawac.

Dude, bullshit. First of all, just because someone survived a biawac "more than once" in the game's lore doesn't make it not an ass-pull.

And it's far from just a single coincidence. Running into Thaos in the ruins has no connection whatsoever to having known Thaos before which has no connection whatsoever to having a supah soul. And the point isn't just that there are coincidences, it's that they take those coincidence way further than is needed for the plot (why did Thaos even have to be at the ruins?), and also include a bunch of meaningless noise at the beginning that has no purpose for being there and could just as well have happened in any order or not at all (e.g. diarrhea, the ambush).

Nervous Obsidian Developer: He feels... he felt that the more hooks
[cut-off by AN4RCHID]
AN4RCHID: That's foolish. You pick the one right tool.

Spoiler

 

[AN4RCHID]

 

[Rostere]

You're basically taking one coincidence (crossing paths with Thaos near the Engwithan ruins) and taking every consequence of that as a separate coincidence.

The magistrate doesn't believe you survived a biawac. The dwarf in the tree explains that sometimes (as in, more than once) a person with a strong soul can resist the effect of a biawac.

Dude, bullshit. First of all, just because someone survived a biawac "more than once" in the game's lore doesn't make it not an ass-pull.

I disagree.

Besides, the entire line of reasoning is very odd. These are the core starting premises for an imaginary story.

I guess you also thought that the "Child of Bhaal"-plot of the BG series was an "ass-pull" because come on, what are the odds of that? What are the odds of the PC you created being the son/daughter of a god? Very, very low. But it is a core premise to the story, similar to how the player having and strong soul and being a former high-ranking (if not the second highest) Leaden Key member is a core premise of PoE. Surviving a biawac is therefore completely logical considering the game's core starting premises.

And it's far from just a single coincidence. Running into Thaos in the ruins has no connection whatsoever to having known Thaos before which has no connection whatsoever to having a supah soul. And the point isn't just that there are coincidences, it's that they take those coincidence way further than is needed for the plot (why did Thaos even have to be at the ruins?), and also include a bunch of meaningless noise at the beginning that has no purpose for being there and could just as well have happened in any order or not at all (e.g. diarrhea, the ambush).

Actually, having a "supah" soul might likely have a connection to having been a very high-ranking member, a "prime mover" second only to Thaos (and possibly Iovara) in a missionary movement.

Thaos might have had to be at the machine to properly control it and supervise the process until the end. Not anyone can do this, as evidenced by the similar machine at Heritage Hill. We do know that there are others who have the knowledge to power up these machines however, Thaos might have tried to help out as much as possible so to spare the lives of his most valuable Leaden Key assets for his eventual endgame, sacrificing mooks instead of higher-ups.

The beginning is far from meaningless noise in my mind, having a starting quest which deals with you having to find a herbal cure for diarrhea is SO much better for establishing realism and the PC as a powerless level 1-dude compared to say, being assigned to "save the princess" or "find the evil wizard" from the start.

 

[Mastermind]

And why does Thaos have to physically be at the ruins if you have a vision of him when you awaken anyway? They could have cut that out completely and just had some Leaden Key agents there.

Thaos fucking with the machine and then causing the biawac did not Awaken you because the biawac touched you. Rather, you were awakened because the scene you accidentally run into was very similar to one of great importance in a past life and seeing it again awakened your old memories.

 

[themadhatter11401]

Dude, bullshit. First of all, just because someone survived a biawac "more than once" in the game's lore doesn't make it not an ass-pull.

And it's far from just a single coincidence. Running into Thaos in the ruins has no connection whatsoever to having known Thaos before which has no connection whatsoever to having a supah soul. And the point isn't just that there are coincidences, it's that they take those coincidence way further than is needed for the plot (why did Thaos even have to be at the ruins?), and also include a bunch of meaningless noise at the beginning that has no purpose for being there and could just as well have happened in any order or not at all (e.g. diarrhea, the ambush).

It's not a coincidence if it's something that happened before the beginning of the story. It's who your character is. A strong soul with untapped powers. Then you coincidentally run into Thaos conducting a scene familiar to a prior incarnation and you are awakened.

 

[AN4RCHID]

the player having and strong soul and being a former high-ranking (if not the second highest) Leaden Keymember is a core premise of PoE. Surviving a biawac is therefore completely logical considering the game's core starting premises.

What makes you think the player character was a high ranking member of the inquisition? When Thaos asks you about Creitum, it seems like it's the first time he's spoken to you, and as if he's just picking you as a convenient assassin because of your familiarity with Creitum/Iovara.

Thaos might have had to be at the machine to properly control it and supervise the process until the end.

Then I guess the writer's hands were tied.

 

[Bleed the Man]

the player having and strong soul and being a former high-ranking (if not the second highest) Leaden Keymember is a core premise of PoE. Surviving a biawac is therefore completely logical considering the game's core starting premises.

What makes you think the player character was a high ranking member of the inquisition? When Thaos asks you about Creitum, it seems like it's the first time he's spoken to you, and as if he's just picking you as a convenient assassin because of your familiarity with Creitum/Iovara.

It's obvious that from vision to vision a lot happen. First is when you are recluted, or very early on, while when you are going after Iovara you're already the Grand Inquisitior. Don't really know if you're one of the higher ups, though, because you're still pretty clueless about anything that has to do with the real motives behind the Inquisition actions. It's clear you're an important piece, but not more than one that serves as executioner of the will of others.

In a totally unrelated note, the cities names from Engwithan times are much more cooler than the ones from the actual time frame. Defiance Bay, Twin Elms, New Heomar... meh. But Creitum? Ossionuss? These names have more character to it.

 

[Rostere]

the player having and strong soul and being a former high-ranking (if not the second highest) Leaden Keymember is a core premise of PoE. Surviving a biawac is therefore completely logical considering the game's core starting premises.

What makes you think the player character was a high ranking member of the inquisition? When Thaos asks you about Creitum, it seems like it's the first time he's spoken to you, and as if he's just picking you as a convenient assassin because of your familiarity with Creitum/Iovara.

Maybe you haven't finished the game yet, and maybe there is some reactivity in the "past memories" storyline, but my character was the Grand Inquisitor (originally just a non-Engwithan missionary who joins Thaos early on). That makes him the second highest-ranking member of the Leaden Key (or whatever Thaos' organization was known as in missionary times) we know of in the story.

IIRC there is something Iovara (who is an elf, who live long lives) tells you about who is "in" on the secret about the gods which leads you to believe that there were originally Engwithan missionaries in addition to Thaos, but at the point of Iovara's death, only Thaos knows the real secrets of his organization. This leads us to believe that there is not a big cabal of people who is either at Thaos' level or between the PC and Thaos.

There are a lot of potential story elements for a sequel/prequel. We don't know at which point Woedica was (supposedly) dethroned by Magran and at which point Thaos became her servant in particular, as opposed to being a servant of all the gods.

 

[Ninjerk]

The herbal diarrhea cure must have happened offscreen, then.

 

[Bleed the Man]

The herbal diarrhea cure must have happened offscreen, then.

No, actually. The game tells that you don't feel ill once you become a watcher

 

[Rostere]

The herbal diarrhea cure must have happened offscreen, then.

Or: The PC never gets any mitigation since you don't have time to prepare it by the campfire.

Anyway, remembering the cringeworthy "animation" for Aerie giving birth in BG2 I think it might be better for PoE's fantasy diarrhea to be left unrendered.

The PC should totally have had some negative status effect, though.

 

[AN4RCHID]

That makes him the second highest-ranking member of the Leaden Key (or whatever Thaos' organization was known as in missionary times) we know of in the story.

Also the lowest ranking member that we know of, incidentally

 

[Irenaeus]

The herbal diarrhea cure must have happened offscreen, then.

The diarrhea shit was just stress and anxiety, it cured by resting and focusing on the quest.

 

[Bleed the Man]

The herbal diarrhea cure must have happened offscreen, then.

Or: The PC never gets any mitigation since you don't have time to prepare it by the campfire.

Anyway, remembering the cringeworthy "animation" for Aerie giving birth in BG2 I think it might be better for PoE's fantasy diarrhea to be left unrendered.

The PC should totally have had some negative status effect, though.

Wait, there was an animation for Aerie giving birth??? WTF Bioware?

That makes him the second highest-ranking member of the Leaden Key (or whatever Thaos' organization was known as in missionary times) we know of in the story.

Also the lowest ranking member that we know of, incidentally

LOL, that's true.

 

[A horse of course]

Anyway, remembering the cringeworthy "animation" for Aerie giving birth in BG2

huh? I don't recall this