PoE plot analysis.

[agentorange]

yeah, it's a good thing they went for something less grandiose like a plot about a gigantic ancient machine that sucks the souls out of thousands of babies, in order for a bad guy named Thaos to feed the souls to a goddess in order to hide the fact that the gods were made by the same people who made the soul sucking machine. What makes the story especially relatable is how the main character accidentally stumbles onto the plot and has no idea what is going until the last few minutes of the game, just like you - the player.

 

[hiver]

I really disagree with most of you guys about the plot.

Firstly, compared to the plots in all the IE games except Torment, PoE is better. BG2 has a better hook to draw you to Irenicus with the dream sequences, but this is not because it gives the story any more urgency than it does in PoE, it's because you are tricked into thinking you will get to see more cool stuff + more David Warner voice acting if you go to Spellhold.

Thats no trick. You do see more cool stuff and hear more DW being one of the coolest and best villains ever made.
The early plot hook of bG2 is done through several things you intentionally leave out because you are cheap lying bastard that is trying to boost his sense of enjoyment in PoE through intentionally skipping over various parts of other games.

1. It starts with the dream and then Irenicus personally torturing you.
2. Then you find out he killed some of your companions already.
3. Then you find out about all his terrible experiments
4. Then he causes your "sister" - another companion to be taken away from you, while being arrogant and dismissive to you - the powerful child of Bhaal who defeated Sarevok, no less.

and thats just the start and the opening hooks that then continue and get reinforced by direct influences on you and your character, through Spellhold area and its aftermath.

Compare to PoE - nothing except the game telling you that you should care about that strange dude you never saw before and that strange light that appeared from nowhere.

Anyhow, you all are completely wrong when you say this changes the world somehow. The man-made gods are still incredibly powerful beings who reward their followers. The reveal about the gods only has philosophical implications. - What is interesting here is the exact formulation of that question - there are a lot of definitions of "god".

There are no philosophical implications in that reveal. Nor are any such philosophies part of the game in any way. There are no lots of definitions of gods. Either a god is a god, or it is not.

The issues I adressed are the ones I personally find the most interesting.

Failure to make the player care: I addressed this in my comparison to BG2. The plot of PoE and BG2 shares a lot of common elements, in both games some soul fuckery happens, and you are supposed to feel an urgency to save your PC. IMO both of these hooks fails for me, mostly I feel the guys who say that BG2 is better than PoE in this regard are hypocrites. BG2's strength lies in the personality of the characters (and in the cool dream sequences). Essentially, players want to go to Spellhold either because they want to save Imoen, or because they want to advance the plot to see more of Irenicus and cool dream sequences. I would be very surprised if people were sincerely more motivated to care about the PC's soul in BG2 than in PoE.

Thats because you are a cheap liar who is inventing stupid ludicrous shit and presenting it as everyone's opinion.

It's very, very hard for me to see how any of the BG games made you care more about the game world than PoE did. I do think that players' selective memories, rose-tinted glasses and the established FR setting are almost wholly to blame for this.

Another stupid strawman/ad hominem argument applied to anyone and everyone who disagrees with you.
BG games had a much more interesting and diverse gameworld so yes, people did get to care much more about it then PoE false, third person removed descriptions of interesting places and convoluted third person plot hooks.

Reinforcing the narrative: As I wrote, I disagree with people about the reveal about the gods on this point. IMO revealing that the gods were originally made from the souls of humans

Thats one of the stupidest ideas i ever heard, on par with the Matrix idea that humans serve as energy sources for AIs. Here the souls are nothing but batteries to power up superhumans.

Which defeats the whole concept of the soul, by the way... so why would those "gods" need them?

Its just cheap self defeating schlock.

The theological aspect of animancy is scarcely mentioned throughout the first parts of the game. Obsidian were guarding the reveal of the gods far to well.

There is no theological aspect of animancy because there is apparently no gods and no souls, moron.

Nevertheless, PoE beats BG and BG2 hands down here.

I would even go so far as to saying that the BG series almost entirely lacks non-critical path content which reinforces the main narrative (you being a Bhaalspawn) outside of Imoen in BG2 and Sarevok in ToB.

Thats because Bhaalls children were special individuals (that Sarevok mostly destroyed) not just everyone you moron.

But there are lots of complaints that could be made about the BG games: You should have been able to stop Irenicus in Waukeen's Promenade, at Spellhold (his disappearance from which is a deus ex machina if anything) or maybe even in the Underdark. You should have been able to try to stop Sarevok from killing Gorion, and so on.

Stoping Irenicus at Waukeen promenade would end the game. And it would mean you are more powerful at the start of the game then someone who whops ass of Cowled wizards as a trick of the day.
Spellhold was a trap an obviously more powerful and smarter adversary set for you for specific goals - which are directly connected with the story - which you would ruin completely and you would end the game there if you could prevent it.
Sarevok killing Gorion is the main personal motivation you have for going after him in the beginning of the game, remove that and there is no motivation - just like PoE.

And you compare that, such crucial main plot elements with fucking riots the player has no control or influence over and that mean absolutely nothing but are another ludicrous convoluted and inefficient trick to push the player forward.

boring antagonist: Well, BG1 has Sarevok which is probably one of the most banal, shit, boring villains ever created.

Oh yeah, just because you claim so with screeching tone.

Dark voice - check, skull helmet - check, glowing eyes - check, killed your father - check, wants to become the God of Murder - check. I couldn't write a more parodic villain if I tried.

All that was fitting with the core of the story you moron.

BG2 has Irenicus, whose emo backstory is not very interesting to me, although not entirely without appeal. However, Irenicus has a really greatly written personality and a superb voice actor. You can say what you want about Bioware, but in BG1 and BG2 they were typically great at giving characters personality. Essentially you want to continue on the main path in BG2 just to see more of Irenicus.

You are repeating this same stupid idiotic idea over and over, implying this is everyone motivation but havent provided a single proof of that despite literally exposing it is only your own stupid idea.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

Yeah, it sums up you are an incoherent fanboi who has no actual arguments for his shrieking splurge of a post that is actually only based on your extreme emotional engagement with PoE who you cannot excuse in any other way except these retarded strawman arguments.

The only reason you are doing this is because reading critiques makes you enjoy PoE less.

 

[Atchodas]

How do you find time to hate both PoE and WL2 at same time so much , lol do u even play those games or just spam the boards :D? if some1 is "extreme emotional engaged" into a game and he is not the one out of 100 but more like complete majority even on this board ( look at the vote thread ) game cant be that bad , many years passed since BG series you might simply not enjoy games so much anymore and thus they look so "extremely bad" for you

 

[DeepOcean]

Okay, after travelling a week... just came back and decided to continue my rant. Okay, I mentioned how the companions are too passive and disconnected from the world. Common... some guy that worked with Éder and defended him was hanged on the tree and Éder is just there thinking about life nearby the tree and really don't want to do anything about it? This is the kind of character Obsidian hope we care about?

The weak and passive companions and the lack of a strong character until reaching Defiance Bay is a big problem but that could be somewhat fixed by a good antagonist, it wouldn't fix the problem but give a reason to care about the plot... one time Sawyer said that antagonist and villains aren't exactly the same thing and I agree with him, they are not, I just question if Obsidian know what an antagonist is. Antagonist is someone that want something that go against the protagonist. I mean go against the wishes of the PROTAGONIST and not anyone else.

Protagonist wants something, antagonists wants to stop protagonist or antagonist wants something and the protagonist wants to stop him. On PoE, the antagonist wants to use the SOUL MAGIC of babies for power (Sorry, but Thaos is a worse mustache twistling villain than Sarevok just for doing this.), the protagonist must act to stop the antagonist but wait a minute... the protagonist is the one that goes against the wishes of the antagonist and want to stop him right? But how are you supposed to be the protagonist if you don't have a fucking clue to what the antagonist want? How are you supposed to go against his objectives if you don't fucking know what they are?

Sure, you can go against some asshole just for the fact of him fucking with you even without knowing his objectives but that is it... Thaos didn't fucking anything to you. It was an accident, you were on the wrong place and wrong time, for convenient plot reasons. If you got by accident into the middle of a war and get shot, are you going to want revenge for the soldier that shot you thinking you were the enemy? Yeah, he could be an asshole but on that particular moment, it wasn't his fault you were a dumbfuck. It is kinda hard hate or feeling anything for someone that didn't want to fuck with you in the first place.

Okay... you had this motivation on the start: "I want to follow this weird guy because... somehow he can cure me of a thing I don't even know is that bad anyway. Jeez... this dwarven lady said I am a Watcher... a special title for a guy that can talk with souls. Hummm, from a complete loser become professor X and winning a fucking stronghold... that isn't that bad anyway... thanks Thaos." Man, you say to me I have superpowers and I fucking don't want they fixed unless you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY make the case I should. Let's slow down Obsidian please... first you need to have ample proof that having an awakened soul is so bad that you want that shit fixed in the first place and no... the sanitarium and Maerwald are not enough proof. You know... on the sanitarium, there are alot of people that did crazy shit because they had awekened souls but the question is: Is the condition of awakened soul a deterministic thing and you WILL end like that like schizophrenia or is there some volition about that? And if there is volition, Maerwald was crazy because he didn't manage it but there is nothing saying you couldn't... The game doesn't make that clear and that implodes the "I want to be cured." as a motivation.

Okay, you don't want the spirit meter of retard detection to scare away retarded people's money... I get that but you still need a way to kick the player in the groin and make it clear that having an awakened soul is bad business and no... that fag elf whiner that is Aloth isn't enough. Okay... beyond having Maerwald on your group and watch him going crazy like I mentioned Obsidian should have done. How about NOT reward the player for his condition. You are solving quests by talking with spirits, you have a special title that everyone treats you with awe for it and your abilities and you win a stronghold! A stronghold! This is not curse but a fucking blessing. Obsidian didn't decide if being a watcher is a bad or a good thing and that really fucked things up.

Actually, I remember an Obsidian game where was the PLAYER that decided if his "gift" was a blessing or a terrible curse... yeah... MotB again, an incredible storyfag RPG from Obsidian that PoE plot wants so much to be like and fail so hard in trying.

How about make you going to Dyford Village and the locals want to burn you and your group alive when they discover you are a watcher because a few months back, a guy that could talk with souls just like you ate 40 people when he awakened to a past life and tought that eating people could give him the essence he needed to be him again? You know... how about not killing drake trash mobs as sidequests but hunting other crazies that have the same condition as you, how about people treating you with fear and rejecting you when they discover you are a watcher because watchers in general are BAD news. If you had the reputation of Count Dracula, powerful but crazy, corrupted and everyone wanted to be as far away as possible... sure, curing yourself would make some sort of sense.

Actually, if Caed Nua was known as a cursed place for all the dangerous, powerful and crazy watchers that inhabited it, maybe you would feel the necessity... maybe the urgency of a cure.

Kinda hard have the motivation to stop Thaos when he did so much for you, you even won a stronghold, at some point I wanted to meet him to congratulate him for making my loser, nobody of a death Godlike drifter on someone important.

Then it comes THE revelation, Thaos was behind the Legacy... man, at that point, Thaos is just a bland version of Doctor Evil. The revelation cheapens the Legacy so much and something that was serious stuff, a curse of the gods, become a plot for some guy wanting to ban animancy and somehow use SOUL MAGIC from the babies. I don't like those superpowered villains that everyone is too stupid to stop or notice, that lead a super secretive group that is so secretive that he can do a TON of secretive stuff and no one will notice but the player's character that is the only one blessed by the gift of not being an idiot or caring about it. That infuriated me at Mass Effect and Obsidian appear to not be above of doing that shit here.

Thaos get to the tower on Heritage Hill and activate it just easy... go there sneaky and press the button. Thaos very sneaky sabotage animancy. Thaos invade Twin Elms and just get in the tower very sneaky. He could very sneaky change your pants while you are sleeping at that point. Please, place some limit on his bullshit power so he looks a bit more human, please? Hummm... Thaos being super sneaky doesn't make him a worthy clever antagonist just a bad case of antagonist can get away with this shit because the plot demands.

 

[themadhatter11401]

I really disagree with most of you guys about the plot.

Firstly, compared to the plots in all the IE games except Torment, PoE is better. BG2 has a better hook to draw you to Irenicus with the dream sequences, but this is not because it gives the story any more urgency than it does in PoE, it's because you are tricked into thinking you will get to see more cool stuff + more David Warner voice acting if you go to Spellhold.

Thats no trick. You do see more cool stuff and hear more DW being one of the coolest and best villains ever made.
The early plot hook of bG2 is done through several things you intentionally leave out because you are cheap lying bastard that is trying to boost his sense of enjoyment in PoE through intentionally skipping over various parts of other games.

1. It starts with the dream and then Irenicus personally torturing you.
2. Then you find out he killed some of your companions already.
3. Then you find out about all his terrible experiments
4. Then he causes your "sister" - another companion to be taken away from you, while being arrogant and dismissive to you - the powerful child of Bhaal who defeated Sarevok, no less.

and thats just the start and the opening hooks that then continue and get reinforced by direct influences on you and your character, through Spellhold area and its aftermath.

Compare to PoE - nothing except the game telling you that you should care about that strange dude you never saw before and that strange light that appeared from nowhere.

BG2 has narrative urgency but does nothing to reinforce it to the player -- putting the next narrative step behind a monetary paywall to force the player to forget about Imoen for a while and get better loot and level up some.

PoE gives you a small hook with your own awakening but purposely does so without immediate narrative urgency so that the player feels some freedom to explore and get immersed in the game world. There simply is no narrative urgency before Thaos goes to Twin Elms to mess with another ancient Engwithan device. The only disappointing thing in this regard is that this urgency isn't reinforced to the player -- hell, you can't even finish the first batch of bounties until Act 3 as I understand it.

Urgency is simply something I do not want at the beginning of an RPG that involves any sort of exploration or side quests.

Anyhow, you all are completely wrong when you say this changes the world somehow. The man-made gods are still incredibly powerful beings who reward their followers. The reveal about the gods only has philosophical implications. - What is interesting here is the exact formulation of that question - there are a lot of definitions of "god".

There are no philosophical implications in that reveal. Nor are any such philosophies part of the game in any way. There are no lots of definitions of gods. Either a god is a god, or it is not.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm sure that "What is a 'god'?" is a question that no person has ever asked and has never been of any interest to anyone.

Because, hey, who cares whether or not a god can be killed? That's certainly not a question that would be interesting to anyone on earth and sure as hell wouldn't be of interest to anyone in Eora. Who was that Waidwen guy, anyway?

It's very, very hard for me to see how any of the BG games made you care more about the game world than PoE did. I do think that players' selective memories, rose-tinted glasses and the established FR setting are almost wholly to blame for this.

Another stupid strawman/ad hominem argument applied to anyone and everyone who disagrees with you.
BG games had a much more interesting and diverse gameworld so yes, people did get to care much more about it then PoE false, third person removed descriptions of interesting places and convoluted third person plot hooks.[/quote]

What was interesting about the gameworld in BG1?

BG2 had a more diverse gameworld, with interesting bits in some parts, but nothing tying those bits together. The story of PoE takes place on a purposely smaller scale, with the curse of the Hollowborn covering the whole region and narratively reinforced through almost every quest. BG2 has some disparate cultures (cultures already created by other writers) cobbled together throughout the narrative to give a sense of a more interesting world.

Reinforcing the narrative: As I wrote, I disagree with people about the reveal about the gods on this point. IMO revealing that the gods were originally made from the souls of humans

Thats one of the stupidest ideas i ever heard, on par with the Matrix idea that humans serve as energy sources for AIs. Here the souls are nothing but batteries to power up superhumans.

Which defeats the whole concept of the soul, by the way... so why would those "gods" need them?

Its just cheap self defeating schlock.
[/quote]

Yeah, the idea of powering gods with souls in a magical world is somehow stupid because it sounds sort of like an idea in a sci-fi movie that is stupid because it defies the laws of physics. Hey, souls are nothing but batteries used to power up superhumans, like that spirit-eater guy in Mask of the Betrayer. But that was just so fucking stupid in that game, wasn't it? I mean, consuming a soul and becoming more powerful? That's just cheap bullshit that defeats the whole concept of the soul.

 

[hiver]

- rolls sleeves replies before coffee -

BG2 has narrative urgency but does nothing to reinforce it to the player

I just gave a full explanation and a list of ways the BG2 deals with its sense of urgency and narrative hooks and you just say - there is none?

are you fucking stupid?

putting the next narrative step behind a monetary paywall to force the player to forget about Imoen for a while and get better loot and level up some.

That does not remove all the plot hooks i mentioned. And at least this fits with the story, internally. Internal coherence, ever heard about it?

There simply is no narrative urgency before Thaos goes to Twin Elms to mess with another ancient Engwithan device. The only disappointing thing in this regard is that this urgency isn't reinforced to the player

Yes?

Urgency is simply something I do not want at the beginning of an RPG that involves any sort of exploration or side quests.

What a fucking retarded stupid thing to say...
Who gives a flying fuck about what you want and why would that be a rule for RPGs?

It all depends on the internal logic of the game and its story, not what you fucking want.

Yeah, I'm sure that "What is a 'god'?" is a question that no person has ever asked and has never been of any interest to anyone.

Whats the purpose of the question when the game answers it for you?

Because, hey, who cares whether or not a god can be killed?

What god? there are no gods, just some super powerful humans who ... dont do anything but just... float somewhere.
super

Shame they didnt improve their Intellect EH? Shame Wisdom isnt a stat EH?

That's certainly not a question that would be interesting to anyone on earth and sure as hell wouldn't be of interest to anyone in Eora. Who was that Waidwen guy, anyway?

Some guy.

What was interesting about the gameworld in BG1?
BG2 had a more diverse gameworld, with interesting bits in some parts, but nothing tying those bits together. The story of PoE takes place on a purposely smaller scale, with the curse of the Hollowborn covering the whole region and narratively reinforced through almost every quest. BG2 has some disparate cultures (cultures already created by other writers) cobbled together throughout the narrative to give a sense of a more interesting world.

Why are you asking when you answer it yourself?
I am talking about the gameworld you get to experience - get it?

Not the background stories you never see or that dont exist in the gameplay.

Yeah, the idea of powering gods with souls in a magical world is somehow stupid

Yes. it is completely and utterly stupid self defeating notion.
What... saying its "magical" makes it not stupid somehow?

because it sounds sort of like an idea in a sci-fi movie that is stupid because it defies the laws of physics.

YES. Exactly.
And laws of fucking common sense.

Which are built on laws of physics you know...?

You also seem to not now what "sci-fi" really means.
You seem to think that one can just write whatever he wants, then call it magic or "sci-fi" and that makes it all great?


-
ahh... coffee...

 

[themadhatter11401]

- rolls sleeves replies before coffee -

BG2 has narrative urgency but does nothing to reinforce it to the player

I just gave a full explanation and a list of ways the BG2 deals with its sense of urgency and narrative hooks and you just say - there is none?

are you fucking stupid?

putting the next narrative step behind a monetary paywall to force the player to forget about Imoen for a while and get better loot and level up some.

That does not remove all the plot hooks i mentioned. And at least this fits with the story, internally. Internal coherence, ever heard about it?

What? BG2 gives you narrative urgency but forces you to fuck around on unrelated stuff so you can level up and get loot before going to Spellhold. Oh, but you have some dreams and shit so the player really feels that urgency. Sure, we do.

There simply is no narrative urgency before Thaos goes to Twin Elms to mess with another ancient Engwithan device. The only disappointing thing in this regard is that this urgency isn't reinforced to the player

Yes?

Urgency is simply something I do not want at the beginning of an RPG that involves any sort of exploration or side quests.

What a fucking retarded stupid thing to say...
Who gives a flying fuck about what you want and why would that be a rule for RPGs?

It all depends on the internal logic of the game and its story, not what you fucking want.

Yes, of course. I want the game and story to make sense. So I don't want there to fucking be immediately pressing matters if the game makers actually expect me to be fucking around exploring and doing sidequests for hours on end before taking the next step in the narrative. You know, like in Baldur's Gate 2.

But, yeah, I'm fucking retarded because I enjoyed not having initial narrative urgency in Pillars of Eternity. Because I enjoy other RPGs where there's no initial narrative urgency to face-off against a Big Bad. I like that in Baldur's Gate 1 the first Act is just about surviving and not chasing the big bad who killed Gorion. I don't like that in Baldur's Gate 2 I need thousands of gold just to book a trip. God forbid it be an option to get yourself locked up in Spellhold in order to bust Imoen out. Because that's something that never happens in fiction. And those Cowled Wizards that locked up Imoen and Irenicus just refuse to take the player character alive...hmmm, there's some internal consistency for you.

Yeah, I'm sure that "What is a 'god'?" is a question that no person has ever asked and has never been of any interest to anyone.

Whats the purpose of the question when the game answers it for you?

It's just the question that needs answered so that your prior incarnation will stop driving you insane. It could have had a better build up. Whether it worked perfectly in the game narrative wasn't really what I was addressing, now, was it?

Because, hey, who cares whether or not a god can be killed?

What god? there are no gods, just some super powerful humans who ... dont do anything but just... float somewhere.
super

Shame they didnt improve their Intellect EH? Shame Wisdom isnt a stat EH?

So, mortals aspiring to godhood isn't a thing you've heard of in fiction?

That's certainly not a question that would be interesting to anyone on earth and sure as hell wouldn't be of interest to anyone in Eora. Who was that Waidwen guy, anyway?

Some guy.

Yep, just some guy. Plus there's that Jesus guy that so many real people believe in who was supposedly somehow mortal and immortal and perfect and capable of temptation at the same time. But no one gives a fuck about that sort of thing.

What was interesting about the gameworld in BG1?
BG2 had a more diverse gameworld, with interesting bits in some parts, but nothing tying those bits together. The story of PoE takes place on a purposely smaller scale, with the curse of the Hollowborn covering the whole region and narratively reinforced through almost every quest. BG2 has some disparate cultures (cultures already created by other writers) cobbled together throughout the narrative to give a sense of a more interesting world.

Why are you asking when you answer it yourself?

I am talking about the gameworld you get to experience - get it?

Not the background stories you never see or that dont exist in the gameplay.[/quote]

Apparently you missed where I placed the question mark.

Yeah, the idea of powering gods with souls in a magical world is somehow stupid

Yes. it is completely and utterly stupid self defeating notion.
What... saying its "magical" makes it not stupid somehow?

It means that there aren't physical laws that you can argue that it's violating. So you need another reason to argue that it's stupid rather than just fucking comparing it to the Matrix.

because it sounds sort of like an idea in a sci-fi movie that is stupid because it defies the laws of physics.

YES. Exactly.
And laws of fucking common sense.

Which are built on laws of physics you know...?

You also seem to not now what "sci-fi" really means.
You seem to think that one can just write whatever he wants, then call it magic or "sci-fi" and that makes it all great?

Do you just say stupid non-responsive shit and ask stupid questions sometimes so you can feel smart?

 

[hiver]

What? BG2 gives you narrative urgency but forces you to fuck around on unrelated stuff so you can level up and get loot before going to Spellhold. Oh, but you have some dreams and shit so the player really feels that urgency. Sure, we do.

Yes you stupid shit. The game makes you WANT to deal with all that other stuff so you can catch up with the villain.

Yes, of course. I want the game and story to make sense. So I don't want there to fucking be immediately pressing matters if the game makers actually expect me to be fucking around exploring and doing sidequests for hours on end before taking the next step in the narrative. You know, like in Baldur's Gate 2.

No, like in PoE. Becuase its the PoE that tells you one thing but then does another, - establishing something is urgent but then doing absolutely nothing to support that in any way whatsoever.

But, yeah, I'm fucking retarded because I enjoyed not having initial narrative urgency in Pillars of Eternity.

No, you are retarded because you think your enjoyment is a proof of quality.

It's just the question that needs answered so that your prior incarnation will stop driving you insane.

You never go insane and thats not what we were discussing there anyway. Dont shift goal posts like that. it is extremely stupid.

Whether it worked perfectly in the game narrative wasn't really what I was addressing, now, was it?

perfectly? who said anything about it working perfectly?

It didnt work at all!

There was no questions because the game gave you the answer that defeats the question!

So, mortals aspiring to godhood isn't a thing you've heard of in fiction?

I did, a few times, in fiction that did not then claim gods are not gods at all and then had morons trying to present that as philosophy and asking difficult questions.

Yep, just some guy. Plus there's that Jesus guy that so many real people believe in who was supposedly somehow mortal and immortal and perfect and capable of temptation at the same time. But no one gives a fuck about that sort of thing.

did Jesus achieve his godhood by absorbing souls of people like they were batteries by using some strange "machine"? Was he a guy with a burning head that got blown up by a bomb?

>Completely the same story!

Apparently you missed where I placed the question mark.

How is that apparent? BG 2 was a better game but there wasnt much difference between it and BG1 in their overall gestalt as far as the gameworld-setting goes.

It means that there aren't physical laws that you can argue that it's violating.

It is violating common sense and everything we usually think about those concepts you stupid retard.

If the souls are just some sort of energy then they are not souls, if the gods are just powerful humans then they are not gods!
Which makes your pretentious claims of "discussing philosophy " retarded and laughably stupid, besides non-existing.

Which is the same thing the matrix did, trying to use a scientific fiction but claiming idiotic things as facts that are fit only for complete idiots like yourself because all your fucking logic and reasoning operate on is how much you enjoy something.

 

[Athelas]

The story suffers from trying to be a pastiche of BG and PS:T. Things like having a secret organization named after a metal object (Iron Throne/Leaden Key) and the entirely superfluous past lives subplot seem like too much of a coincidence. In emulating those games, the writers make quite a few rookie mistakes, which is puzzling since I thought Obsidian had their own internal guidelines for developing narrative. Very odd.

The story does finally come into its own in the third act and avoids the RPG tradition of a rushed endgame. The plot is at its most enjoyable when it focuses on the plight of the Hollowborn and the interplay with the gods, and act 3 didn't disappoint for me in that regard. Betraying all the gods and watching them screw over the Dyrwood with a series of natural disasters in the ending slide was great as well.

Even with all its flaws, I like the story quite a bit more than that of the IE games sans Torment.

 

[Starwars]

I agree with that pretty much.

Though I still enjoy the "past life" stuff quite a bit actually. I find where it doesn't work is making the player care about it a lot. It tries to make a point of the "one question burning in your mind stuff" but it fails to... build it to something that the player would really care about, whereas the "what can change the nature of a man?" weaves its way into a lot of the story in Torment.
But I still enjoyed the flashbacks with Thaos just for what they were, and I think that developing a character from your past life is an interesting idea though it doesn't amount to that much in the game.

My main problems with the story come down to a few things.
1) The watcher/awakened thing. These two things get quite easily muddled in the game in the game I think, and I don't think they're defined as well as they should be.
2) Making the condition of the player character an actual threat. I dunno, if they had at least kept up some of the illusions and stuff that you see at the start of the game (developing them into different things as to avoid repetition) it would've at least kept the insanity angle more at the forefront. That part of the story completely goes away in Act II pretty much and only re-surfaces towards the very end of Act III again. It's very weird.
Also, making the whole "no sleep for the Watcher" thing clearer. Can I sleep or can't I? I never really got the impression that my character isn't able to rest well. To the point where I was like "huh?!" in the ending slide when the narration says that you can finally sleep or whatever. Such strange rooke mistakes for a dev like Obsidian.
3) The end of Act II has been discussed of course. And I don't understand why they did the whole Defiance Bay rioting because it amounts to pretty much nothing in the actual game. You can't enter it for a bit and then when you re-enter it's exactly the same as it was before aside from some new flavor dialogue here and there. Again, very strange decision by OEI I think.

But I greatly enjoy the actual telling of the story if that makes sense. I really enjoy the dialogues, descriptions, lore and characters a lot. But the bigger, sweeping plot-elements seems strangely fractured.
Even so I much prefer it to the IE games, where I really didn't give much of a damn (though Sarevok and Irenicus were cool to 16-17 year old me) except for Torment.

 

[themadhatter11401]

What? BG2 gives you narrative urgency but forces you to fuck around on unrelated stuff so you can level up and get loot before going to Spellhold. Oh, but you have some dreams and shit so the player really feels that urgency. Sure, we do.

Yes you stupid shit. The game makes you WANT to deal with all that other stuff so you can catch up with the villain.

Yeah, ok, whatever. I was totally in a rush to get to Spellhold while I was off traveling all over the continent.

Yes, of course. I want the game and story to make sense. So I don't want there to fucking be immediately pressing matters if the game makers actually expect me to be fucking around exploring and doing sidequests for hours on end before taking the next step in the narrative. You know, like in Baldur's Gate 2.

No, like in PoE. Becuase its the PoE that tells you one thing but then does another, - establishing something is urgent but then doing absolutely nothing to support that in any way whatsoever.

When does it establish that something is urgent? Aloth is the only one in any rush to get to Defiance Bay. The player is investigating the awakening and the visions, but isn't given any reason to think this is life-threatening until you meet Maerwald, and you are given no reason to think that you are going to go crazy any minute. You're just presented a probability that eventually your awakening will drive you insane. But Aloth's isn't driving him insane, and unlike Maerwald, you aren't inhabited by the soul of a war criminal who raped your own mother. The player is just given information about how to find out more about awakenings, and stumbles upon the plots of the Leaden Key. If you weren't personally interested in investigated their machinations, you were welcome to just quit the game while your character eventually succumbed to mental illness living out his days in the sanitarium.

But, yeah, I'm fucking retarded because I enjoyed not having initial narrative urgency in Pillars of Eternity.

No, you are retarded because you think your enjoyment is a proof of quality.

Actually, I didn't say that or imply it. I expressed an opinion. You seem to have trouble distinguishing the difference.

It's just the question that needs answered so that your prior incarnation will stop driving you insane.

You never go insane and thats not what we were discussing there anyway. Dont shift goal posts like that. it is extremely stupid.

Whether it worked perfectly in the game narrative wasn't really what I was addressing, now, was it?

perfectly? who said anything about it working perfectly?

It didnt work at all!

There was no questions because the game gave you the answer that defeats the question!

Sure, you weren't imminently going insane. You would eventually.

The whole thing about gods isn't really relevant to what the player wants to accomplish. It's still an interesting idea in the setting and raises interesting philosophical questions in the context of the gameworld.

So, mortals aspiring to godhood isn't a thing you've heard of in fiction?

I did, a few times, in fiction that did not then claim gods are not gods at all and then had morons trying to present that as philosophy and asking difficult questions.

Or, where a character says, instead, that the gods aren't real, then corrects herself and says that they are real but that they aren't what people think, that they are man-made, that they are humans empowered by the souls of mortals and that they can be made more power through the consumption of more souls. You know, kind of like how devouring souls in MotB made you powerful enough that the gods feared you.

Yep, just some guy. Plus there's that Jesus guy that so many real people believe in who was supposedly somehow mortal and immortal and perfect and capable of temptation at the same time. But no one gives a fuck about that sort of thing.

did Jesus achieve his godhood by absorbing souls of people like they were batteries by using some strange "machine"? Was he a guy with a burning head that got blown up by a bomb?

>Completely the same story!

But if you think that the game stated that the gods are not gods, then how can a mortal become a god? If the gods of Eora are mortals with supernatural abilities empowered through the consumption of multiple souls, who is to say they are not still gods? Iovara herself doesn't even say that they aren't now gods. And Eder continues to worship Eothas even after this revelation. Whether they are gods is a matter of perspective.

Apparently you missed where I placed the question mark.

How is that apparent? BG 2 was a better game but there wasnt much difference between it and BG1 in their overall gestalt as far as the gameworld-setting goes.

Because my question was about BG1. My explanatory statement was specifically about BG2 and had nothing to do with BG1. My statement about BG2 was only about its diversity. You said that I answered my own question, so tell me: how in the fuck were any of my statements about the setting diversity in BG2 relevant to BG1?

It means that there aren't physical laws that you can argue that it's violating.

It is violating common sense and everything we usually think about those concepts you stupid retard.

If the souls are just some sort of energy then they are not souls, if the gods are just powerful humans then they are not gods!

Except that you still haven't explained why they can't still be gods despite beginning as normal mortals. And while you're at it, please fucking explain why it isn't stupid in Mask of the Betrayer that the evil path is all about consuming souls in order to become powerful enough to challenge the gods themselves.

Which makes your pretentious claims of "discussing philosophy " retarded and laughably stupid, besides non-existing.

Oh, yes, how fucking pretentious of me to simply identify issues raised by the revelations about the gods. "What is a god?" "Can a god die?" with no spewing of my own thoughts on the issues, while you seem so comfortable asserting yours as fact. How pretentious, indeed.

Which is the same thing the matrix did, trying to use a scientific fiction but claiming idiotic things as facts that are fit only for complete idiots like yourself because all your fucking logic and reasoning operate on is how much you enjoy something.

Or, not, because you like to completely misinterpret arguments that I make. All I fucking asked was that you make a valid argument why it is stupid as opposed to simply making a fantastically oversimplified comparison to the Matrix.

 

[hiver]

But if you think that the game stated that the gods are not gods, then how can a mortal become a god?

Thats just it, you cant. Because there are no gods.

Thats why it is and self defeating concept.

Iovara herself doesn't even say that they aren't now gods.

Irrelevant.

And Eder continues to worship Eothas even after this revelation.

Obviously stupid.

Whether they are gods is a matter of perspective.

Because my question was about BG1. My explanatory statement was specifically about BG2 and had nothing to do with BG1. My statement about BG2 was only about its diversity. You said that I answered my own question, so tell me: how in the fuck were any of my statements about the setting diversity in BG2 relevant to BG1?

both games use the same setting and the same gameworld?

Except that you still haven't explained why they can't still be gods despite beginning as normal mortals.

I explained it but you dont get the difference between a God and just some guys getting a lot of power ups.

And while you're at it, please fucking explain why it isn't stupid in Mask of the Betrayer that the evil path is all about consuming souls in order to become powerful enough to challenge the gods themselves.

Challenge them but not become a god.

Plus, MoTB clearly puts a fire under your ass for being cursed with the most horrible curse of becoming an abomination in order to push you forward.

Eating souls - which means destroying them - makes you into an abomination. A monster.

issues raised by the revelations about the gods. "What is a god?" "Can a god die?"

there is no fucking gods there to raise those issues. those are not gods! get it?

ffs...

All I fucking asked was that you make a valid argument why it is stupid as opposed to simply making a fantastically oversimplified comparison to the Matrix.

And i explained it to you you fucking moron!

You just claiming i didnt makes no fucking sense, as much as you just proclaiming its somehow a "fantastically oversimplified comparison"!

 

[Malpercio]

A lot of over-analyzing in this thread.

 

[themadhatter11401]

But if you think that the game stated that the gods are not gods, then how can a mortal become a god?

Thats just it, you cant. Because there are no gods.

Thats why it is and self defeating concept.

Iovara herself doesn't even say that they aren't now gods.

Irrelevant.

And Eder continues to worship Eothas even after this revelation.

Obviously stupid.

Whether they are gods is a matter of perspective.

No, the game did not state this. You are misquoting Iovara. I accurately reported what Iovara says, and you say that what she says is irrelevant because "the game" somewhere states something about the gods that Iovara doesn't.

Because my question was about BG1. My explanatory statement was specifically about BG2 and had nothing to do with BG1. My statement about BG2 was only about its diversity. You said that I answered my own question, so tell me: how in the fuck were any of my statements about the setting diversity in BG2 relevant to BG1?

both games use the same setting and the same gameworld?

So BG1 had the same setting diversity as BG2? Because that's the only way that what you're trying to argue makes sense. The simple fact is that I didn't answer my own question about BG1 when I mentioned the diversity of locales presented in BG2. It would be easier to just admit that. But then you'd have to actually answer the question about what's so great about the setting of BG1.

Except that you still haven't explained why they can't still be gods despite beginning as normal mortals.

I explained it but you dont get the difference between a God and just some guys getting a lot of power ups.

And while you're at it, please fucking explain why it isn't stupid in Mask of the Betrayer that the evil path is all about consuming souls in order to become powerful enough to challenge the gods themselves.

Challenge them but not become a god.

What's the meaningful difference? Are the Forgotten Realms "gods" gods? Was Cyric a god?

Plus, MoTB clearly puts a fire under your ass for being cursed with the most horrible curse of becoming an abomination in order to push you forward.

Eating souls - which means destroying them - makes you into an abomination. A monster.

So what? It's like the Matrix so it's stupid.

I mean, it's not relevant that maybe the gods of Eora ARE abominations. Or that the souls they consumed were freely given and weren't taken as part of some curse inflicted by "real" gods.

issues raised by the revelations about the gods. "What is a god?" "Can a god die?"

there is no fucking gods there to raise those issues. those are not gods! get it?

ffs...

Says you.

All I fucking asked was that you make a valid argument why it is stupid as opposed to simply making a fantastically oversimplified comparison to the Matrix.

And i explained it to you you fucking moron!

You just claiming i didnt makes no fucking sense, as much as you just proclaiming its somehow a "fantastically oversimplified comparison"!

No, you didn't. You just keep repeating the same bullshit:

"The game says there are no gods even though it didn't really say that so there are no gods!!!!"
"I said there are no gods!!!!!!!"
"I don't care what Iovara said about the gods even though she's the only one who reveals information about them!!!!!"
"I don't care that Eder still revered Eothas as a god!!!!!"
"I don't care that you couldn't get sent to Spellhold by the Cowled Wizards in BG2!!!!!"
"I don't care that souls that provide power in MotB are still souls but souls in PoE that provide power are not souls they're just batteries!!!!!"
"It doesn't matter if there isn't a fundamental mathematical energy input/output plot-killing issue, it's still stupid for the same reasons that The Matrix is stupid!!!!!!"

If you have something to say that isn't a restatement of any of the above, you're welcome to continue. Otherwise, responding to your trolling is no longer a fruitful use of my time.

 

[hiver]

No, the game did not state this. You are misquoting Iovara.

Where did i quote Iovara at all?
The game story is literally that the "gods" are fake because they are humans who ate souls to make themselves powerful.

Thus they are monsters and abominations at best.

So BG1 had the same setting diversity as BG2? Because that's the only way that what you're trying to argue makes sense. The simple fact is that I didn't answer my own question about BG1 when I mentioned the diversity of locales presented in BG2. It would be easier to just admit that. But then you'd have to actually answer the question about what's so great about the setting of BG1.

what a stupid little blatant retard you are... its funny seeing that stupid brain spin trying to find a way out of idiotic statements it made.

No, you would have to answer what makes PoE gameworld better then the gameworld of BG games, which is what you claimed, but never explained.

So what? It's like the Matrix so it's stupid.

How does the story of MoTB equals matrix you stupid shit?

You think you can just mix everything and anything without any explanation to make it seem smart? You think you are smart dont you?

Says you.

says the game you fucking imbecile.

No, you didn't. You just keep repeating the same bullshit:

Are you that retarded that you think just stating i didnt makes it so?

and you think you will imply this list of stupidity is something i said?

"The game says there are no gods even though it didn't really say that so there are no gods!!!!"
"I said there are no gods!!!!!!!"
"I don't care what Iovara said about the gods even though she's the only one who reveals information about them!!!!!"
"I don't care that Eder still revered Eothas as a god!!!!!"
"I don't care that you couldn't get sent to Spellhold by the Cowled Wizards in BG2!!!!!"
"I don't care that souls that provide power in MotB are still souls but souls in PoE that provide power are not souls they're just batteries!!!!!"
"It doesn't matter if there isn't a fundamental mathematical energy input/output plot-killing issue, it's still stupid for the same reasons that The Matrix is stupid!!!!!!1111"

These are your stupid words you fucking shitstain. This is the expression of how fucking stupid you are you fucking unintelligible turd.


What i actually said is that if the game wants to pretend it poses philosophical questions about religion, souls and Gods, then it cannot do that through a retarded story where souls are batteries and gods are abominations, and nothing more then humans who ate souls to become more powerful.

Which is the same as Matrix idiotic plot, pretending to be Science Fiction, but trying to do that through idiotic ideas as humans as batteries, and thus becoming "sci-fi" you laughable stupid turd.

Both Matrix and PoE stories are failing on the same level and because of same reasons, thats why they can be compared to one another.

I already told you that, its just that your stupid deranged brain is distorting reality in a pathetic attempt to try and escape facts and truth.

Just because you enjoyed the game and it hurts that enjoyment that things are not as good as you that enjoyment made you think they are.



- jesus fucking christ... what a newfag... where did you come from? Obsidian?
butthurt that someone doesnt think the shit you like is awesome?

for fuck sake...

 

[themadhatter11401]

No, the game did not state this. You are misquoting Iovara.

- jesus fucking christ... what a newfag... where did you come from? Obsidian?
butthurt that someone doesnt think the shit you like is awesome?

for fuck sake...

themadhatter114 Liturgist

Joined:
Apr 9, 2005
Messages:
306
Brofists Received:
7
Kodex Kool Kredits:
133
Location:
Morgantown, WV

 

[hiver]

It doesnt really matter, you know? What matters is that you dont have any real arguments and you keep using more and more strawmans and other fallacies to paint your opinions right.

Besides, i dont think the game is that bad, as for example the W2 is.
Nor do i think your enjoyment in it is something that is evil.

but you need to sort that out with your own brain.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Ok, ok, fine. I see everyone would rather have a totally unmemorable crapfest of a boring non-engaging plot rather than a cliched one.

Everyone would rather have a cliched plot than a cliched one?

 

[themadhatter11401]

It doesnt really matter, you know? What matters is that you dont have any real arguments and you keep using more and more strawmans and other fallacies to paint your opinions right.

Besides, i dont think the game is that bad, as for example the W2 is.
Nor do i think your enjoyment in it is something that is evil.

but you need to sort that out with your own brain.

Except, I've made plenty of arguments that you've either ignored, responded to with an emoticon, or simply asserted that there are no gods and that that's the end of any potential discussion about their nature.

 

[Gord]

The game story is literally that the "gods" are fake because they are humans who ate souls to make themselves powerful.

Thus they are monsters and abominations at best.

Not really, the idea is that a whole lot of people sacrificed themselves (apparently willingly) to combine their souls into some new and powerful being that could play the role of the gods everyone expected to exist (but which the Engwithans couldn't find previously).
They did that to end the arguments about whose (probably imaginary in those cases) gods where the "true" ones - because if they created gods from their collective soul, according to certain ideals, they would give the world "real gods" that would end those arguments.

Whether you consider those being gods, well, that's something else entirely. It might work for people coming from a polytheistic, antropomorphic believe system similar to the greek/roman pantheon, but it's hardly a god according to the definition of the Judaic religions.

 

[hiver]

No, my point is that if you already have that answer then the matter is clear, - as in those are a lot of people who did it intentionally - and then there isnt much to discuss.
Discworld gods are more complicated then that. More appropriate for any discussions about "what it all means" and "how does it all work" and "why".


I dont see how greek and roman pantheon could possibly be considered even similar let alone anything else. Because those are explained in different ways as to their origin and other features. No souls eating or melding.
Except maybe you mean like by the amount of diverse gods with specific functions.

I would say it would be more in line with shamanistic beliefs, and philosophy at the basic level because that is generally more in line with such ideas.
Although not quite directly.

 

[Gord]

Except maybe you mean like by the amount of diverse gods with specific functions.

Yes, this to some extend. Also them being (relatively) tangible and antropomorphic beings.

 

[themadhatter11401]

No, my point is that if you already have that answer then the matter is clear, - as in those are a lot of people who did it intentionally - and then there isnt much to discuss.
Discworld gods are more complicated then that. More appropriate for any discussions about "what it all means" and "how does it all work" and "why".

But you haven't really argued that point, you've simply asserted it. As a factual matter, there is nothing to discuss -- the "gods" were created by men who willingly sacrificed their very souls to fuel the creation of supernatural beings.

Knowing a specific set of facts does not preclude all further discussion of the potential implications. We don't know enough about the powers of the 'gods' to know if perhaps they should still be deified. We know that they do indeed have power, as we reached Thaos with their assistance, and they had the power to bind Iovara's soul to her prison for eternity.

So they are soul-eaters who have constructed their very own place for the Faithless.

If there is already a pantheon in a setting, there is a relatively easy way to determine if a mortal has ascended to godhood. If there are originally are no gods, who exists to tell them that they haven't achieved it?

 

[hiver]

No, i explained the stupidity of the idea to you but you are so cemented in your head you dont get it.

Nobody gives a damn if you will simply chose to believe there is something to discuss there.
If the gods are not gods but men who eat souls (some a voluntary meld of some kind) - which then serve as some kind of batteries, the whole thing is nonsense - in relation to anything we believe about god, gods or souls - so you cannot them stupidly claim that there could still be same kind of meaning there.

Same thing as in Matrix there is no real sense to think about Ais as smart, since they are doing that battery schtick, which is nonsense - which defeats the whole purpose of them as the setting tries to portray them.


And i already gave you example of such similar setup that actually works, in the case of Discworld gods, which has many a philosophical theme to discus because it is less unambiguous.
Because there the gods are not just stronger humans.
And they dont just eat more souls when they start to ... what... run out of juice?


/
Hello!! Anyone home!??

knock! knock!

meh.

 

[themadhatter11401]

No, i explained the stupidity of the idea to you but you are so cemented in your head you dont get it.

Nobody gives a damn if you will simply chose to believe there is something to discuss there.
If the gods are not gods but men who eat souls (some a voluntary meld of some kind) - which then serve as some kind of batteries, the whole thing is nonsense - in relation to anything we believe about god, gods or souls - so you cannot them stupidly claim that there could still be same kind of meaning there.

Same thing as in Matrix there is no real sense to think about Ais as smart, since they are doing that battery schtick, which is nonsense - which defeats the whole purpose of them as the setting tries to portray them.

And i already gave you example of such similar setup that actually works, in the case of Discworld gods, which has many a philosophical theme to discus because it is less unambiguous.
Because there the gods are not just stronger humans.
And they dont just eat more souls when they start to ... what... run out of juice?


/
Hello!! Anyone home!??

knock! knock!

meh.

No explanations. Only assertions.

None of the gods in PoE showed any tendency to devour more souls except Woedica who had been overpowered by her rivals.

If you think there is no extra thought because a single fact is known, more power to you.