Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

KickStarter [Poll] Best XP model

Which of these XP models you find more appealing?


  • Total voters
    138

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Note that XP as currency just lead to ruining your economy faster than just with your actual currency alone. So no, for the sake of less weakening effect.

XP from both quests and actions is the choice.

XP from action is good because it create the sense of believability in the games. It make no sense that you kill a bloody gob of enemies after a great battle and no xp from that, just quest. AKA a strategist receive same xp as the frontline fighter. No sense at all.

If you fear repeating actions to farm xp, you can do Silent Storm/Hammer Sickle way with limiting certain number of actions can gain xp or skill levelups in certain range. Or the UFO Afterlight way of reduce the number of xp from actions (healing) to miniscule so if you want to farm you have to work at it.

As for diplomat/stealth, nothing prevent devs from establishing certain XP perks/reputation of achieving diplo/stealth goals. Well, nothing other than dev's time and effort, that is.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,110
XP for treasure and, to a much lesser extent, killing monsters

Dungeon-Masters-Guide-Efreet-Cover-Page-086.jpg


Dungeon Masters Guide, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1979
 

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
Patron
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
5,931
Location
The land of ice and snow.
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Skyrim's learn-by-doing system is great at providing progression for just about any activity, regardless of whether it's related to any combat or questing, but unless it's calibrated really well, some skills take far too much effort to increase.
I see you also tried leveling Alteration in Solitude.
 

Old Hans

Arcane
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
2,123
XP for treasure and, to a much lesser extent, killing monsters

Dungeon-Masters-Guide-Efreet-Cover-Page-086.jpg


Dungeon Masters Guide, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1979


I always liked the xp for treasure. Also if anyone balks at this, I will gently and firmly remind you that in a game certain compromises must be made and you just better deal with fact, jack
 

Outmind

Augur
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
211
Bloodlines had a realistic system. You gained experience by EXPERIENCING unusual situations and growing from them. Plus, you gained direct, specialized knowledge from reading books, which also makes sense. That being said, I'm partial to gaining XP by using skills. The TES games d do a pretty good job at this, though it can easily be exploited if it's tied to overall level gains.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
still falls under the currency option

Voted for "XP as currency" then, but I find it highly misleading. It should be "XP as objects in the world" with Currency in the description, not the other way around.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,334
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Voted for "XP as currency" then, but I find it highly misleading. It should be "XP as objects in the world" with Currency in the description, not the other way around.

If you are going to have XP as objects in the world (with the currency implying you can buy them) then why not just skip the XP altogether and just find and pay trainers to gain skills and increase your stats?
 

Barbie

Novice
Joined
Nov 10, 2020
Messages
28
So what way of gaining XP do you like the most?
Vote and post your reasons.


The models are pretty simple:

> XP from quests - you get XP only by completing quest objectives or other overaching objectives (like completing a chapter, etc...)

> XP from actions - you get XP from your immedeate activities such as combat, exploration, stat/skill checks and etc. but not from quests

> XP from both quests and actions - the above two models combined

> XP as currency - XP are actual objects in the game world (or even something more abstract like a form of energy, etc...) that the player can acquire from specific undertakings and may even use them not only to develop his capacities but also to pay for all kinds of goods and services

XP from quests and limited actions; something like vtmb. I don't like it when games force coombat grind on a player. But also discovering areas and secrets are a valid source of experience.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I am not endorsing Currency, I am endorsing Underrail's Oddities system (ie, XP as objects in the world). OP groups these 2 systems together, and thus my complaint.

The main difference between trainers and Oddities is... how many trainers will you have? With oddities you can control the pace of XP gain and the different routes the player can take much better.

In addition, one of the main issues with XP gain is that it is like sugar: It tastes good, but it is also a cheap addiction. It can also mask the game's various deficiencies ("yeah, this gameplay sucks, but at least I am getting XP!"). XP gained by everything is a lot of sugar, and some people like that, I get it, I like sugar too. One of the reasons I endorse the more balanced Oddities system is because it is neither too much sugar nor too little. It can be just right.

What I am trying to say with my last paragraph is that Trainers are too little sugar.
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
But exploration can lead to more quests, and loot.

Quests should lead to more quests. I always found it annoying when I wanted to take a break from questing and just explore I would have someone run up to me and offer more quests. It is especially annoying in Novigrad in Witcher 3, you want to explore the town, do quests you've accepted and you are constantly interrupted by people who offer additional work and clog up your journal with dozens of jobs.

Gothic 2 does questing and XP rewards right. You get a quest to go somewhere, once there you can ask for more work or explore new area and kill stuff for more xp. You still get more experience from quests but you also get the rewards from roaming around.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
8,108
Location
Lusitânia
XP for treasure and, to a much lesser extent, killing monsters

Then cast your vote in "XP from actions"

I think you should add a qualifier about limited or unlimited available xp to the poll.

I though about that but ultimately the poll isn't about the minute workings of an XP system, because otherwise I would also have to include a shitton of other options
So just vote in what you generally prefer

Voted for "XP as currency" then, but I find it highly misleading. It should be "XP as objects in the world" with Currency in the description, not the other way around.

Yeah I realised that after I started the thread
Also sucks you can't change the option's label/description
I could add another option that specifies that XP is just a game world entity and not currency, but people already voted in the current option so that would muddle the results
 

new fucking guy

Scholar
Patron
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
180
Pathfinder: Wrath
I like xp as currency, or specifically gear progression with no leveling. It's hard to make it work in a way that makes sense, but breaking it on subsequent playthroughs is fun and rewarding. Outward had the right idea, with majority of gear being obtainable right from the start and abilities costing money. Fits the open world model nicely - note how TES games also let you train skills for cash. In morrowind it's the only sensible way to train magic at low levels (the alternative being casting the easiest fire spell like 300 times at 50% fail rate).
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
DJOGamer PT
XP are a universal measure of progression, so XP should never be circumstantial.

XP for actions violate that, automatically marking you as an uncritical dim-wit who doesn't know better and only does stuff because others, who also didn't know better, did it before him.
:obviously:
More specifically: doling out XP based on specific ways of achieving goals (actions) rather than achieving goals leads to abuseable and shitty game design:
  • Players don't get any reward if they solve encounters by doing something clever rather than employing canned modes of interaction (like combat or dialogue).
  • Player get extra rewards if they play the game in degenerate manner (sneak by the guy for sneak XP, then return to dialogue at guy to defuse situation peacefully using diplomancy for diplomancy XP, than finally stab the guy in the face and take his stuff + kill XP). Also farming.
The only way out if you still want to advance player based on actions is no longer making such progression universal, but then you replace XP with full fledged use-based skill system which is not in the poll. Note that use-based is notoriously hard to properly waterproof (for example Bethesda can't do it despite some attempts) and tends to be very heavyweight system to implement even if it could very much be the bee's knees if properly implemented.
Anyway, use-based is no longer XP, and XP for actions is pretty much shitty by design.
If you are making a game that is large enough to justify extra effort AND can actually understand how to make such system work and accomplish that - go for use-based, it's probably your best option.


XP for goals fare better, BUT that depends on what you consider a goal.
For it to work properly goals should be universal and never circumstantial - if a reasonable character might object to a specific goal there should be no XP for it (unless you can provide complete coverage of mutually exclusive goals so that every character can and will accomplish exactly one).
Quest-based XP is a typical example goal based free of the issues of action based but may fail by incentivizing quests that would be out of character for certain PCs. For example if some fop demands wyvern eggs for an omelette and you can have a druid PC who would reasonably not want to do it.
In general quest based XP is not nearly as labour intensive as use-based skill system, and unlike action based XP has a chance of working as intended, but setting up the individual rewards is delicate and adds extra work to the content.
Note that chores should always count as potentially out of character.
An alternative or supplement to quest based can be XP for other universal goals IF you can establish them. For example if you can't have characters that have no use for wealth (or have taken vows of poverty - although you could solve the latter by providing appropriate outlets), money could be such a measure of advancement. Basically for every GP that enters character's possession, character gets one XP. Simple and also actually rooted in RPG tradition, it also allows effectively trading stuff for XP. Not that there are some exploits possible (for example dropping then picking up the gold) but they should be fairly possible to ward against.
Note that it isn't as much XP as currency, but rather currency as XP.
Finding legendary items (provided you can find use for them even if they don't fit your build), locations or lore could also yield XP.

Actions and quests XP is just quest XP tainted with action XP and not any less shitty than the latter.
:whatisfun:
Eat that, Mr balance man.

XP as currency is just... weird and very contextual. If you can make it work in your game or setting - go for it, but it will likely need some specific explanation to make sense and work in the context. For that reason I don't consider it universally workable.

And last option that isn't in the poll is of course:
No character advancement - no XP in any form needed for that. You just build character and that's it. They may grow in power by gaining equipment, specific knowledge, allies and so on but not by becoming more powerful themselves. It has advantage of being easy to balance, develop, exploit proof and of making sense most of the time (other than the stories where you want zero-to-hero specifically), especially if the character is already an established professional of some sort.

If you want to, you might go for a sort of hybrid approach:
Predefined final build. It allows adding growth to the above, by letting player specify their final character and unlock that gradually during gameplay. Note that it still needs some advancement method, but even though action based will still work poorly with it, it's going to be quite degeneracy proof by default. It might also use fairly relaxed and eccentric methods of actually advancing character compared to actual growth system thanks to being built effectively outside in. Also note that it has severe drawback of not allowing player to readjust their preconceptions.
 
Last edited:

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,683
> XP from quests - you get XP only by completing quest objectives or other overaching objectives (like completing a chapter, etc...)
Probably this one, provided it's done right, though it's a hard choice. On one hand, getting XP from feats and accomplishments is just more fun than getting it from murdering 10 000 kobolds. On the other hand, if the game has no enemy respawn, then looking for enemies to slain to get some of that sweet, sweet XP has its own charm (see Gothics as an example). On the other hand, games WITH enemy respawn, where said respawn is only there to allow you to grind for XP, are pure decline. Since only giving XP from quests would eliminate the whole point of grinding, I am in favour of that.

XP as currency - XP are actual objects in the game world (or even something more abstract like a form of energy, etc...) that the player can acquire from specific undertakings and may even use them not only to develop his capacities but also to pay for all kinds of goods and services
I don't like this system very much because it's more often than not just an attempt to fix in game economy being total garbage – no need to worry about the player accumulating a million gold, when he's supposed to blow it all on getting an HP upgrade or something. I've seen some games where it was done well (they had good in-game economy to begin with, in which case this is perfectly fine), but usually, it just leads to cancer like "I see you have 10 million gold. Give it to me all, and I'll give you +5% to HP" and similar bullshit.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom