Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #22: Q&A with Tim, Cooking?, and Avellone Trolls You!

[asper]

Re nonsense about developers sucking at games: no surprise there. They work for years, often long hours on these projects, they don't have the time and dedication to re-play IWD a couple of times like Codexians. If you work 10 hours on some game, you're not going to crawl behind your computer in the evening to play some shit. Moreover, they're basically casual gamers, playing LoL in breaks and such, to unwind, and Adam was saying he likes FPS'es, wants to play Borderlands 2 and the new XCOM game.

The stream was fun to watch and he said some interesting things during it. He was promoting the IE engine and being enthusiastic about it, and played the damn game for hours and hours! He really deserves some props for that. He might have convinced some new people to have a look at the old games because of that stream.

He's the project manager, not a designer, even though I think Sawyer or anyone else would have sucked just as bad in that stream. It's only in the indie scene that games are made by hardcore gamers themselves, like AoD. The days of Troika are gone forever.

Doesn't matter, as long as the game is good.

 

[Mrowak]

Yeah i know. That's what "the rest" was referring to.

So let's say I disagree. It shouldn't fall to them for a simple reason - it's our money they are using. In order for us to be called "investors" (according to the business model ironyuri talked about earlier) we need to know what exactly our money is spent on. Otherwise, sooner or later kickstarting projects for this kind of money is going to be compromised. All we have is just *hope* it won't happen to Obsidian and inXile.

 

[Cosmo]

I understand, but it's not the same as being shareholders, here the pledge amounted to an act of faith.
Now i think that as a show of respect they will be polite and tell us if they encounter any major difficulty, but we'll never have the full details, not before game release anyway.

 

[ironyuri]

Basically what I've been trying to say in a nutshell is:

Keeping us in the dark is their (Obsidian, nXile) prerogative. I completely agree. It is, however, also their peril. If the end product does not meet the expectations they create through their marketing campaign (see contrast between early information about Bioshock and the release product), then there will be a serious issue. Ken Levine can tell us til the cows come home that Bioshock, for example, was influenced by the publisher, by the focus groups, by marketing and PR branches of the studio, but it doesn't change the fact that his end product deviated wildly from its initial intentions.

Obsidian and nXile have a responsibility to their backers (ie. us) not only to produce a final product which meets the expectations they created, but to stick as closely to that vision as possible. They asked us for money to make a game, we have provided that money, therefore, anything that does not meet the expectations they create at the outset, will not be the game we funded. If we assume the role of publishers in providing funds, then they have to meet our expectations of the game, if they don't, then you can expect crowd funding to very quickly lose its viability.

Edit: To clarify, this responsibility exists precisely because they are circumventing the developer-publisher relationship. Their pitch is that this is the game they want to produce, but haven't been able to fund because publishers are not interested and they know there is a market. They are asking us to make it a reality. We have the power in this relationship, not Obsidian. They have a responsibility to prove that they will use our money wisely, and that as much of it as possible is going to be invested across developing as deep and as engaging a game experience as they are capable of creating, wielding total artistic integrity free of the publisher's noose.

This is not free money that Obsidian is getting based on the good will of its fans, this is money being exchanged with the expectation that it will contribute to the production of a finished product in line with the reasonable expectations we can cite as regards the initial kickstarter prospectus.

They said at the outset that they'll be using a real time with pause system, so if the end product is not real time with pause, but straight real time with WoW style abilities, then we would be well within our rights to ask for our money back and to refuse to support any future products. That's just one example.

 

[Cosmo]

You're making good points, but will they be enough to entice them into full disclosure, i'm not so sure. We'll have to see.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

awwww pretties http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/screenshots/0001/PE-TempleEntrance01-2560x1440.jpg

 

[Infinitron]

They said at the outset that they'll be using a real time with pause system, so if the end product is not real time with pause, but straight real time with WoW style abilities, then we would be well within our rights... to refuse to support any future products. That's just one example.

Indeed. Like I said:

Kickstarted games operate under one simple rule - if the developer fucks up their game, they lose all of their hardest-core fans FOREVER. That's your only assurance that they won't screw you over, but it should be enough.

If Obsidian fuck this up in a major way, they lose their fanbase and become a shovelware company.

What would you want full disclosure for? You're afraid they'll make a popamole game and you want to be around to force them not to? If you even have to do that, you've already wasted your money.

 

[Mrowak]

Basically what I've been trying to say in a nutshell is:

Keeping us in the dark is their (Obsidian, nXile) prerogative. I completely agree. It is, however, also their peril. If the end product does not meet the expectations they create through their marketing campaign (see contrast between early information about Bioshock and the release product), then there will be a serious issue. Ken Levine can tell us til the cows come home that Bioshock, for example, was influenced by the publisher, by the focus groups, by marketing and PR branches of the studio, but it doesn't change the fact that his end product deviated wildly from its initial intentions.

Obsidian and nXile have a responsibility to their backers (ie. us) not only to produce a final product which meets the expectations they created, but to stick as closely to that vision as possible. They asked us for money to make a game, we have provided that money, therefore, anything that does not meet the expectations they create at the outset, will not be the game we funded. If we assume the role of publishers in providing funds, then they have to meet our expectations of the game, if they don't, then you can expect crowd funding to very quickly lose its viability.

What's worse, because they are very vague about the game they are making the expectations inflate, even though nothing is set in stone yet. At this point PE basically *must* become much, much better than any IE game combining the best from Planescape and Icewind Dale - two completely different games with different goals at their cores. How are they are going to blend water and fire [see my question from earlier], I don't think they themselves know. All of this despite possibly lower funding.

Their marketing may work for now, but when the time comes it may be their downfall. In fact, nothing is more likely.

 

[Cosmo]

What would you want full disclosure for?

Plus, no company whatsoever does that, which i'm pretty sure amounts to basic survival instinct, considering the industry they're in.

 

[Infinitron]

IE game combining the best from Planescape and Icewind Dale - two completely different games with different goals at their cores. How are they are going to blend water and fire [see my question from earlier], I don't think they themselves know.

I think many people would argue that Bioware did precisely that with the Baldur's Gate series.

 

[Mrowak]

IE game combining the best from Planescape and Icewind Dale - two completely different games with different goals at their cores. How are they are going to blend water and fire [see my question from earlier], I don't think they themselves know.

I think many people would argue that Bioware did precisely that with the Baldur's Gate series.

Yes - people will expect the best parts from all games BG sereis, Icewind Dale and Planescape to be there. Baldur's Gate 3 that would be only as good as 2 won't be enough, considering what other IE accomplished.

It doesn't matter what apologists will argue. It matters what the pledgers expect. Which puts Obsidian's credibilty into doubt, because they really have problems with implementing combat in interesting way, especially in the context of the stories. I am really curious to know how they are going to approach that.

 

[Infinitron]

Baldur's Gate 3 that would be only as good as 2 won't be enough

I completely disagree with this. People would jizz their pants at an equal of BG2.

 

[ironyuri]

What would you want full disclosure for?

Plus, no company whatsoever does that, which i'm pretty sure amounts to basic survival instinct, considering the industry they're in.

No company does it, but at no point in almost any industry has a company asked for donations directly from its consumer base to continue producing products.

Think about it this way, Burberry of England asks its customer base, (let's presume they are still English owned and operated and their customers still mainly English, and this is 1950) is financially unstable. They wish to keep producing mac coats, and their other popular fashion lines.

They appeal directly to their consumers: fund our production and we promise you'll get some of the end product, the rest we'll mass market to keep producing the things you like.

This is a cooperatisation of the industry, if not outright socialisation. Now, in video games, Kickstarter is basically this kind of system. Obsidian has cooperatised their production. We all have a stake in their continued success now, and the success of this product. If this kickstarter is successful, we get our end product and our confidence in their business grows before the next project. We are officially in a grey area between stock holder and consumer, not in Obsidian the company, but in Project Eternity, the product of Obsidian.

Obsidian have an obligation to us not only to produce, but to ensure that our money is not used frivolously, the only way to ensure this will be the case is, if not complete disclosure, semi-transparency of their project business model. I don't want to see their accounting books, far from it, what I want to see is some disclosure from the company about what my pledge will actually be spent on. I pledged after they reached their initial goal, will my money go toward the player house? What if there is a funding bottleneck and they need to come back to the community and ask for more? Can we be assured they won't give the project to a publisher to oversee if they get a lucrative deal?

We are paying not only for the end product, but we are paying specifically for its production. This is a form of inverted consumerism, basically. We are no longer buying a product off the shelf at Electronics Boutique, we are deciding whether or not a project merits existing at all.

 

[Vault Dweller]

 

[Mrowak]

Baldur's Gate 3 that would be only as good as 2 won't be enough

I completely disagree with this. People would jizz their pants at an equal of BG2.

Some yes. But others wanty second Planescape. And from vague promises Obsidian made the story is to be more mature and complex than before. And the combat is supposed to be much more tactical than in BG2. It's all vague, without any meaning. Everytone's expectations are sky-high but we still do not know what exactly we will get.

 

[Mrowak]

Obsidian have an obligation to us not only to produce, but to ensure that our money is not used frivolously, the only way to ensure this will be the case is, if not complete disclosure, semi-transparency of their project business model. I don't want to see their accounting books, far from it, what I want to see is some disclosure from the company about what my pledge will actually be spent on. I pledged after they reached their initial goal, will my money go toward the player house? What if there is a funding bottleneck and they need to come back to the community and ask for more? Can we be assured they won't give the project to a publisher to oversee if they get a lucrative deal?

Add to all that a timeline with exact stages of development and funding. Also mention safeguards: for example, what if team A fails to meet the deadline and team B cannot start working - how to get around situations like that?

 

[Infinitron]

Some yes. But others wanty second Planescape.

Again, I must disagree. Obsidian have specifically stated that this project is NOT the Planescape Torment spiritual successor. Nobody with a working brain has gone into this project expecting that it is!

The VAST majority of backers would be overjoyed if this game was equal to BG2.

 

[ironyuri]

Just to clarify, when I say socialisation I do not mean socialisation of the production. This is socialisation/coopertisation of product. I'm guessing we're in a somewhat uncharted passage of consumer economics here, unless I'm totally off base.

 

[Mrowak]

Some yes. But others wanty second Planescape.

Again, I must disagree. Obsidian have specifically stated that this project is NOT the Planescape Torment spiritual successor. Nobody with a working brain has gone into this project expecting that it is!

The VAST majority of backers would be overjoyed if this game was equal to BG2.

Go to Obsidian boards and see how many backers fear that Obsidian is talking to much about combat. "What about other solutions to quests outside of combat, you talked about?" they ask. What about the setting and story? What about C&C? All of these was promised or insinuated in one update or another. All of these reach far beyond the scope of original IE games.

Here is the profound problem - lack of clarity. This lack of clarity leads to massive inflation of expectations. It doesn't matter what Obsidian says, it matters that they letting the baloon of expectations grow. If they are not careful enough it may explode taking a sizeable part of their fanbase out.

 

[Infinitron]

Go to Obsidian boards and see how many backers fear that Obsidian is talking to much about combat. "What about other solutions to quests outside of combat, you talked about?" they ask. What about the setting and story? What about C&C? All of these was promised or insinuated in one update or another. All of these reach far beyond the scope of original IE games.

Meh. I've seen two or three storyfags. I bet they thought BG2 had an AWESOME story. Don't take these people too seriously, their standards are not that high.

 

[Mrowak]

Go to Obsidian boards and see how many backers fear that Obsidian is talking to much about combat. "What about other solutions to quests outside of combat, you talked about?" they ask. What about the setting and story? What about C&C? All of these was promised or insinuated in one update or another. All of these reach far beyond the scope of original IE games.

Meh. I've seen two or three storyfags. Their bark is worse than their bite. I bet they thought BG2 had an AWESOME story. Don't take these people too seriously.

But that's exactly problem with cowdfunding - inflated expectations. Besides Obsidian did promise alternate solutions to quest and engrossing story - a no mean fit, exceeding what was in IE games. I will be very disappointed if somewhere along the development they will handwave that aspect. So disappointed in fact they won't be able to count on my support in future projects. I bet many individuals treat their own priorities in the same way I treat mine.

 

[Infinitron]

Besides Obsidian did promise alternate solutions to quest

Wow, alternation solutions to quests! Dude, even Dragon Age had those. It is not such a steep order.

 

[Mrowak]

Besides Obsidian did promise alternate solutions to quest

Wow, alternation solutions to quests! Dude, even Dragon Age had those. It is not such a steep order.

It is. You don't even realise how difficult it is to do right. And if you think I will be satisfied with the solution at Bioware level, you are dead wrong. SoZ level is the least I will expect of them. As I said - inflated expectations. They *must* provide better content than anyone else. Otherwise I wouldn't have spent more money than on any other real actual game to support the project, right?

This is only to show the way people feel about PE.

Edit: Think Infiltron, if instead of BG2+ you got NWN2+ with all its faults with encounter design, broken interface, two empty, souless cities and serious pathfinding issues would you be satisfied? Granted they will have accomplished all of their vague stretch goals, but that alone wouldn't make the game you paid the money for.

That's why marketing campaign like these, built around expectations and nothing else are a double-edged sword.

 

[Infinitron]

It is. You don't even realise how difficult it is to do right. And if you think I will be satisfied with the solution at Bioware level, you are dead wrong. SoZ level is the least I will expect of them. As I said - inflated expectations. They *must* provide better content than anyone else. Otherwise I wouldn't have spent more money than on any other real actual game to support the project, right?

This is only to show the way people feel about PE.

You're a Codexer, Mrowak. Most of the backers don't have as high standards as you do.

(Let me remind you that all the Codex rage about cooldowns didn't even put a blip on the Kickstarter's funding rate.)

 

[J_C]

Mrowak What are you afraid of? That Obs will make a different game that you envisioned for them, and what you pledged for? Than I have a bad news for you, you will be dissapointed. There are 60.000 backers and I assume that everybody envisions a different game. Obsidian can't please everybody and thank God for that. They have a vision for this game and they will make that game. Some people will be dissapointed, it is inevitable. But if you expected them to fullfill your every wish about the game, you shouldn't have even donated. Kickstarter is based on faith towards the devs. We hope that they will make a good cRPG.