Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #22: Q&A with Tim, Cooking?, and Avellone Trolls You!

[Mrowak]

Mrowak What are you afraid of? That Obs will make a different game that you envisioned for them, and what you pledged for? Than I have a bad news for you, you will be dissapointed. There are 60.000 backers and I assume that everybody envisions a different game. Obsidian can't please everybody and thank God for that. They have a vision for this game and they will make that game. Some people will be dissapointed, it is inevitable. But if you expected them to fullfill your every wish about the game, you shouldn't have even donated. Kickstarter is based on faith towards the devs. We hope that they will make a good cRPG.

But that's exactly the point I am making. They cannot please everyone, and yet they make everything so vague and immaterial in order to attract everyone - which will cause all sorts of problems along the development process and once the game is released.

In reality, I will be happy with a decent BG2 clone that fixes some of its major problems (e.g. makes the combat actually more tactical). The problem is we cannot even be sure Obsidian can actually achieve that because they have never proved their competence in this regard and it is clear they they still don 't have any concrete vision. Unfortunately the campaign is not giving me anything to work on. Hell I am not certain if the project will be completed.

 

[Infinitron]

But that's exactly the point I am making. They cannot please everyone, and yet they make everything so vague and immaterial in order to attract everyone - which will cause all sorts of problems along the development process and once the game is released.

Sounds like every commercial product in existence.

 

[Mrowak]

But that's exactly the point I am making. They cannot please everyone, and yet they make everything so vague and immaterial in order to attract everyone - which will cause all sorts of problems along the development process and once the game is released.

Sounds like every commercial product in existence.

Except that here you are not buying anything. You are spending money in the blind. Again, sooner or later this whole idea of kickstarting projects is going to be compromised.

 

[Infinitron]

Except that here you are not buying anything. You are spending money in the blind. Again, sooner or later this whole idea of kickstarting projects is going to be compromised.

Kickstarter is only the means of acquiring of a product. Does the whole idea of supermarkets become compromised because of one bad brand of breakfast cereal?

 

[Vault Dweller]

$3,001,172!

 

[ironyuri]

Except that here you are not buying anything. You are spending money in the blind. Again, sooner or later this whole idea of kickstarting projects is going to be compromised.

Kickstarter is only the means of acquiring of a product. Does the whole idea of supermarkets become compromised because of one bad brand of breakfast cereal?

that is an awful analogy and you should feel bad, infagitron.

this product does not exist, and the supermarket isn't stocking it on the shelves. Kelloggs is asking us for money to produce a new brand of cereal that is not market tested, and it is asking us to believe they can produce something we will all love, based on certain factors relating to brand recognition (infinity cereals) and company talent (tim cain, head cereal maker). with our money they will produce the cereal, of which we'll get a free lifetime supply, and then they will take the product to market to sell it on to further consumers in the hopes of mass or at the very least, medium market appeal.

without our backing / venture capital, the cereal could not hit the shelves and would remain only an idea.

 

[Mrowak]

Except that here you are not buying anything. You are spending money in the blind. Again, sooner or later this whole idea of kickstarting projects is going to be compromised.

Kickstarter is only the means of acquiring of a product.

Product that does not exist.

Does the whole idea of supermarkets become compromised because of one bad brand of breakfast cereal?

No because with bad brands the product is ready. However, if I invested money in a cereal factory that is supposed to produce tasty creal and what I get is shit, then the idea of crowdfunding is compromised.

If - God forbid - inXile or Obsidian fail to deliver, then yes - it will compromise Kickstarter as a means of funding projects of this callibre.

 

[Infinitron]

If - God forbid - inXile or Obsidian fail to deliver, then yes - it will compromise Kickstarter as a means of funding projects of this callibre.

I agree, the rules for the "big guys" are different - they affect the entire ecosystem. But if the Shaker Kickstarter or something equally shitty/unimportant fails to deliver, it won't.

 

[ironyuri]

Except that here you are not buying anything. You are spending money in the blind. Again, sooner or later this whole idea of kickstarting projects is going to be compromised.

Kickstarter is only the means of acquiring of a product.

Product that does not exist.

Does the whole idea of supermarkets become compromised because of one bad brand of breakfast cereal?

No because with bad brands the product is ready. However, if I invested money in a cereal factory that is supposed to produce tasty creal and what I get is shit, then the idea of crowdfunding is compromised.

If - God forbid - inXile or Obsidian fail to deliver, then yes - it will compromise Kickstarter as a means of funding projects of this callibre.

Mrowak, if I don't get shit after eating a tasty cereal, I don't buy the cereal again because it obviously lacks the necessary dietary fibres to maintain my bowel regularity.

 

[kaizoku]

Regarding Tim, funny thing is that, to me, he looks like he's just doing his job.
He doesn't look as excited and "balls deep" into PE as Sawyer or the rest of the team is.
He doesn't look happy.

Low INT dialog confirmed. That's great.

Dispite my grudge against RTwP i possibly try this game afterall.
I still won't pledge though. But i'm slightly more positive because of recent updates.
Tim and company do a good job selling it to me.

Go fuck yourself.

I doubt that, because the stretch goals gave nothing to do with any plan. They are set at certain positions for marketing reasons only. That's why I have a sneaking suspicion that $3.5 million goal for a motherfucking huge city was set so high to boost the campaign, without actually a chance of achieving it (The quality of the cities is also a problem, because, e.g. Neverwinter from NWN2 is rather poorly done).

They need to aim for the starts, but 3.5 is certainly doable. If they really wanted to cock tease they had put it at 4 million.
60 hours to go, 400k needed
W2 did 300k in the last 2 days.

Also, I don't know about yourself, but I don't see Obsidian as a snake oil company, so I wish for them to get the most money as they can. And that involves setting high stretch goals.

I am very concerned about that. A plan with a budget should be a prerequisite for a project for this kind of money to even appear on Kickstarter. Add to that: how on earth are they going to make the whole game in 18 months? How can they ensure that the content thay are making will be top-notch, and won't suffer from tight schedule.

They need to know their budget before they make their business plan, even if they already have a general idea.

And what can you do about it ?
I won't bang my head against the wall, even considering the "drama queen" tendencies that this forum has always been encouraging.

No, but is also important to highlight the possible danger and constantly demand transparency, wherever you are. Blind acceptance and unjustified devotion has never done us any good, so why should it now?

So you want to know how many zeros does everyone's paycheck has?
Also, should you account for the fact when they work 10 or 12 hours a day?

 

[Mrowak]

If - God forbid - inXile or Obsidian fail to deliver, then yes - it will compromise Kickstarter as a means of funding projects of this callibre.

I agree, the rules for the "big guys" are different - they affect the entire ecosystem. But if the Shaker Kickstarter or something equally shitty/unimportant fails to deliver, it won't.

But we are talking about big players here.

You will remember that when I pointed the problem for the first time in another thread I commented how disappointed I was at the approach they took - how amatourish their pitch was, unbecoming of a company of this size and of the ambitious goal. And I am still standing beside what I stated then. This really wasn't a good way of soliciting for money - not because it was ineffective (it sure as hell was), but because at the end of the day they will be held responsible for what they've done, and without clear plans they will have nothing to give themselves legitimacy and cover their arse. This is no way to conduct business.

 

[kaizoku]

Mrowak, if I don't get shit after eating a tasty cereal, I don't buy the cereal again because it obviously lacks the necessary dietary fibres to maintain my bowel regularity.

what a shitty comment

 

[Infinitron]

But we are talking about big players here.

You will remember that when I pointed the problem for the first time in another thread I commented how disappointed I was at the approach they took - how amatourish their pitch was, unbecoming of a company of this size and of the ambitious goal. And I am still standing beside what I stated then. This really wasn't a good way of soliciting for money - not because it was ineffective (it sure as hell was), but because at the end of the day they will be held responsible for what they've done, and without clear plans they will have nothing to cover their arse. This is no way to conduct business.

*shrug* I don't know how to respond to this. I've said that the fact that Obsidian even still exists today, as (I believe) the last large independent RPG developer in North America, proves that they do know how to conduct their business.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[ironyuri]

Regarding Tim, funny thing is that, to me, he looks like he's just doing his job.
He doesn't look as excited and "balls deep" into PE as Sawyer or the rest of the team is.
He doesn't look happy.

Low INT dialog confirmed. That's great.

Dispite my grudge against RTwP i possibly try this game afterall.
I still won't pledge though. But i'm slightly more positive because of recent updates.
Tim and company do a good job selling it to me.

Go fuck yourself.

I doubt that, because the stretch goals gave nothing to do with any plan. They are set at certain positions for marketing reasons only. That's why I have a sneaking suspicion that $3.5 million goal for a motherfucking huge city was set so high to boost the campaign, without actually a chance of achieving it (The quality of the cities is also a problem, because, e.g. Neverwinter from NWN2 is rather poorly done).

They need to aim for the starts, but 3.5 is certainly doable. If they really wanted to cock tease they had put it at 4 million.
60 hours to go, 400k needed
W2 did 300k in the last 2 days.

Also, I don't know about yourself, but I don't see Obsidian as a snake oil company, so I wish for them to get the most money as they can. And that involves setting high stretch goals.

I am very concerned about that. A plan with a budget should be a prerequisite for a project for this kind of money to even appear on Kickstarter. Add to that: how on earth are they going to make the whole game in 18 months? How can they ensure that the content thay are making will be top-notch, and won't suffer from tight schedule.

They need to know their budget before they make their business plan, even if they already have a general idea.

And what can you do about it ?
I won't bang my head against the wall, even considering the "drama queen" tendencies that this forum has always been encouraging.

No, but is also important to highlight the possible danger and constantly demand transparency, wherever you are. Blind acceptance and unjustified devotion has never done us any good, so why should it now?

So you want to know how many zeros does everyone's paycheck has?
Also, should you account for the fact when they work 10 or 12 hours a day?

Kaizoku, they did know their budget. It was 1.1 million dollars. That received that within a few hours. They've had their budget for some time, everything else is supposed to be over and above their baseline "budget".

Do you see how your logic here is flawed? They set out with a fucking budget for us to meet, we have more than met it.

 

[Mrowak]

So you want to know how many zeros does everyone's paycheck has?

No, but I do want to know how much money will be spent in the given time-frame on salaries, because this factors in development time if only to see if the project is doable, and to see when I can enjoy the results. By giving us the numbers they also make the comittment that no more than so much money will be spent on people.

Also, should you account for the fact when they work 10 or 12 hours a day?

No, but I would like to know what development stages there are and how much time will it take to fulfill them and how much will their cost. Also what if shit hits the fan during development stage - what safeguards are there to save the deadline.

These are really basic questions. I don't need to see the profiles of their workers or how much their programmer gets. I want to see rudimentary info on the project to see if its even doable, or if they are serious enough to actually come to us, community with such monumental request and that they treat as seriously. So far only Tim Cain appears to have any clue about the direction they are heading.

 

[J_C]

So you want to know how many zeros does everyone's paycheck has?

No, but I do want to know how much money will be spent in the given time-frame on salaries, because this factors in development time if only to see if the project is doable, and to see when I can enjoy the results. By giving us the numbers they also make the comittment that no more than so much money will be spent on people.

Also, should you account for the fact when they work 10 or 12 hours a day?

No, but I would like to know what development stages there are and how much time will it take to fulfill them and how much will their cost. Also what if shit hits the fan during development stage - what safeguards are there to save the deadline.

These are really basic questions. I don't need to see the profiles of their workers or how much their programmer gets. I want to see rudimentary info on the project to see if its even doable, or if they are serious enough to actually come to us, community with such monumental request and that they treat as seriously. So far only Tim Cain appears to have any clue about the direction they are heading.

If after all the updates, all the talk about the mechanics, all the lore they talked about, you still think that they don't know the direction they are heading, then I really don't know what they could do to convince you. We had the same argument when this whole project started. People accused them that they don't know anyhing about the game and they are just making shit up as time goes. Since then Obsidian proved them wrong by releasing information about the game for the last month. What do you want them to talk about every specific thing about the game? Why can't you understand that they are still in pre-production, and things can change?

You are questioning the whole Kickstarter modell. No, it is not transparent, but why should it be? You are not an investor. You are a donator. I don't want the Child's Play Foundation to show me a business plan after I donating them 100 dollars. I have faith in them using it for helping the children. And I don't expect Obsidian to show me the business plan of the game. O have faith in them using my money for makig the game they promised. If you don't trust them, then why are you donating?

 

[kaizoku]

Kaizoku, they did know their budget. It was 1.1 million dollars. That received that within a few hours. They've had their budget for some time, everything else is supposed to be over and above their baseline "budget".

Do you see how your logic here is flawed? They set out with a fucking budget for us to meet, we have more than met it.

What is your point?
So you wanted to see their business plan for 1.1 million?
Like you wanted to see DF business plan for their DFA 400k budget game?

I think we both know what would happen.
In any case, I'll demonstrate what the reaction from the target audience would be:

what is this!?
I don't want a flash game! Nor a game with 2 or 3 rooms!
I want an old school game.
fuck you Tim. I'm not backing this.

There. The end. DFA wouldn't have succeed. No more KS.
Now move along, go back to your popamoles.

 

[ironyuri]

Kaizoku, they did know their budget. It was 1.1 million dollars. That received that within a few hours. They've had their budget for some time, everything else is supposed to be over and above their baseline "budget".

Do you see how your logic here is flawed? They set out with a fucking budget for us to meet, we have more than met it.

What is your point?
So you wanted to see their business plan for 1.1 million?
Like you wanted to see DF business plan for their DFA 400k budget game?

I think we both know what would happen.
In any case, I'll demonstrate what the reaction from the target audience would be:

what is this!?
I don't want a flash game! Nor a game with 2 or 3 rooms!
I want an old school game.
fuck you Tim. I'm not backing this.

There. The end. DFA wouldn't have succeed. No more KS.
Now move along, go back to your popamoles.

Kaiz, if the money is ours, whether it's 10,000 or 10,000,000, then yes we should be shown some kind of plan with development milestones and what they plan to have achieved using a development timeline.

 

[J_C]

It's funny that suddenly everybody became an economist, who want to see business plans.

 

[Jaesun]

There is also the AMA thing today on reddit. Hopefully we can ask a bunch of good stuff there.

 

[kaizoku]

So you want to know how many zeros does everyone's paycheck has?

No, but I do want to know how much money will be spent in the given time-frame on salaries, because this factors in development time if only to see if the project is doable, and to see when I can enjoy the results. By giving us the numbers they also make the comittment that no more than so much money will be spent on people.

Also, should you account for the fact when they work 10 or 12 hours a day?

No, but I would like to know what development stages there are and how much time will it take to fulfill them and how much will their cost. Also what if shit hits the fan during development stage - what safeguards are there to save the deadline.

These are really basic questions. I don't need to see the profiles of their workers or how much their programmer gets. I want to see rudimentary info on the project to see if its even doable, or if they are serious enough to actually come to us, community with such monumental request and that they treat as seriously. So far only Tim Cain appears to have any clue about the direction they are heading.

The money will be going to salaries.
Except for the KS and Amazon fees, costs of physical goodies, tools (unity), costs in VO and live music.
The first three are only known when the KS ends.
Unity engine is peanuts.
VO and live music, possibly graphic artists as well, are a dependent variable. They depend on how much they'll be able to afford, and it will likely be decided near the end of the project.

If they have more money they will hire more people, they have said this. Also because they're aiming to maintain that release date.


While your questions are valid, those answers aren't what sells the project to 99% of the prospective backers.
Hell, after the KS I'm expecting to see something similar to what DF did in the "where did the money go" thread.
Mostly out of curiosity, because that won't really change anything to me.
Obsidian is betting their reputation here and also making an investment.
They will produce an IE alike game, but it will likely not match codexian standards, that is until at least a decade has passed.

 

[ironyuri]

It's funny that suddenly everybody became an economist, who want to see business plans.

JC, when I say "business plan" I don't mean that specifically.

For my university to provide funding for higher degree graduate research (which is funded at 22,000AUD per annum either by the Australian Research Counil, through the Australian Postgraduate Award), or through the University Postgraduate Award), a prospective higher degree research student must submit themselves to:

6 months during which they prepare and submit a research proposal, which will be examined by faculty and approved or sent back to the drawing board.

If the research proposal is approved by the faculty, it is then passed to the school's Graduate Research School, who approve the candidate's higher degree project and allow them to commence their research degree officially.

You are funded as a full time student (8 hours a day expected) tax free, for 22,000 a year, sometimes 27,000 a year or more. What the university expects in return is both a finished research project (thesis) at the end of your candidature, but during your candidature it expects annual reports on your progress including:

Work you have completed so far, project milestones you hope to meet by set deadlines, and a plan approved by your supervisor to ensure that you are both able to complete the project in its allotted time, but also to produce a piece of work that will be passed by examiners.

It is not too much to ask to expect Obsidian to provide some kind of planned schedule for development, with deadlines by which time they hope to meet major developmental milestones. They are receiving free money from us to do so.

I'm not asking for them to provide stock projections or profit projections, just that they'd be demonstrated not only an ability to meet deadlines, but to keep us in the loop with these deadlines and milestones to ensure our money is being spent effectively.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It is not too much to ask to expect Obsidian to provide some kind of planned schedule for development, with deadlines by which time they hope to meet major developmental milestones. They are receiving free money from us to do so.

Ok, you've convinced me. Go ahead and ask them. Don't forget to add "or else..." to make them take you seriously.

 

[ironyuri]

It is not too much to ask to expect Obsidian to provide some kind of planned schedule for development, with deadlines by which time they hope to meet major developmental milestones. They are receiving free money from us to do so.

Ok, you've convinced me. Go ahead and ask them. Don't forget to add "or else..." to make them take you seriously.

derp. thanks bro. yes, i know that they can just lulz at it. but this is what project oversight is. if there is no oversight, then they can just blow the money on boondoggle bullshit.

kickstarter's make or break is oversight.

ps. aod is shit and i hate you

pps. and your mother was/is fat

 

[Mrowak]

So you want to know how many zeros does everyone's paycheck has?

No, but I do want to know how much money will be spent in the given time-frame on salaries, because this factors in development time if only to see if the project is doable, and to see when I can enjoy the results. By giving us the numbers they also make the comittment that no more than so much money will be spent on people.

Also, should you account for the fact when they work 10 or 12 hours a day?

No, but I would like to know what development stages there are and how much time will it take to fulfill them and how much will their cost. Also what if shit hits the fan during development stage - what safeguards are there to save the deadline.

These are really basic questions. I don't need to see the profiles of their workers or how much their programmer gets. I want to see rudimentary info on the project to see if its even doable, or if they are serious enough to actually come to us, community with such monumental request and that they treat as seriously. So far only Tim Cain appears to have any clue about the direction they are heading.

If after all the updates, all the talk about the mechanics, all the lore they talked about, you still think that they don't know the direction they are heading, then I really don't know what they could do to convince you. We had the same argument when this whole project started. People accused them that they don't know anyhing about the game and they are just making shit up as time goes. Since then Obsidian proved them wrong by releasing information about the game for the last month. What do you want them to talk about every specific thing about the game? Why can't you understand that they are still in pre-production, and things can change?

You are questioning the whole Kickstarter modell. No, it is not transparent, but why should it be? You are not an investor. You are a donator. I don't want the Child's Play Foundation to show me a business plan after I donating them 100 dollars. I have faith in them using it for helping the children. And I don't expect Obsidian to show me the business plan of the game. O have faith in them using my money for makig the game they promised. If you don't trust them, then why are you donating?

J_C, sorry but you are turning into a fanboy who misses the point. The did was done, PE is bound to be funded, but the larger issue remains. This model just un-safe, fallible and bound to be exploited. Projects cannot operate of faith alone, especially projects of this callibre. There were many projects that had many talented people working on them which simply failed because enthusiasm is often not enough. Projects, above everything else need careful planning and budgets, enthusiasm comes only after everything else.

I admit that Obsidian succeeded at generating hype - they caught me there and made me fund the venture. I really hope they will succeed, because they are decent chaps, and I really want to play a good RPG. Having said that, from the pure business standpoint there's a lot to be concerned about. The company in question does not give anything concrete - it is really not professional to treat people with such margeting but fail to produce facts. Please, remind me J_C when was the last time any developer fulfilled vague promises such as they have now? Because, afaik Obsidian failed at realising them in every game - which is a fact and generally not a point in their favour. You can say: "it's the evil publishers", but it isn't a fact - there's no guarantee it is really the case.

Bottom line: if this way of gathering funds for AA games is to survive as a model, they should do much better job than what we are witnessing.