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Development Info Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #39: Classes, Cooldowns, Attacks, Damage vs. Armor, and Tilesets

tuluse

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Big muscles != slow.

Not developing twitch muscles = slow.

Take someone like Brian Urlacher

YGG5kHE.jpg


In his prime, he weighed 260 lbs, could run a 40 yard dash in 4.5 seconds, and could bench press 225 lbs 27 times (actually that last number is before his prime, it probably went up).
 
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Irenaeus

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Example of large, strong and fast guy

Yeah, my main point is that a character who is strong, dexterous and martially skilled enough, can wield large weapons with fast, heavy and precise strikes. Of course, a swift olympic-level fencer armed with a sabre could win a fight against him. I think this could be simulated by RPG rules for specific gameworlds, using features such as described in the excelent article posted above. Not sure how to transfer it to a cRPG, but what should I know? I'm just a dumb nigger.

Edit: Armors affecting action speed and defense are another issue altogether.
 
In My Safe Space
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About "heavy weapons". Many "heavy weapons" aren't that heavy. For example both Arming Sword and Long Sword weighted 2-4 Lbs. Typical Zweihander would weight 4-5 Lbs. Heavy mace would weight 3-4 lbs.

Those are pretty interesting. I think his distinction between levels of realism and levels of detail is a good one.
The author has made a D20 supplement about realistic combat. I believe it could be easily turned into a system for a computer game.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/75133/Codex-Martialis-CORE-RULES-V-23
 

Hormalakh

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Hey folks. So I've been playing with Sawyer's armor/weapon mechanics, and frankly I think it's beautiful. Imagine your weapons having "stats." This is the future. Anyway.... I think I've figured out a way of getting him to stick with the old mechanic. For those of you interested in the actual excel sheet, I finally got it working, equations and all.

Basically, Josh's game will have weapon "characters" if he sticks with the old mechanic. It's an easily understandable mechanic if they show it to the player well. It is also pretty much :incline:. Anyway, more info here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...tion-damage-vs-armor-and-a-tileset/?p=1303508
 

Moribund

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Sawyer doesn't like it when an aspect of a system is modified by more than one input. :M

'Cause it's harder to track in a spread sheet ? Sawyer can't into multiple variable functions ? Tsk, tsk.
Balance. It's always about balance.

And that is the problem, I guess. Things have to be truly different somehow for there to be real tactical growth due to them.

And you don't have to go back to numbers. Even the effects from weapons in M&M made things more interesting. Stun and paralysis as you gained mace skill, extra attacks for swords, etc.
 

jewboy

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As far as heavy vs. light weapons and realism there are those pesky laws of physics. F=mA. p =mv. E = 1/2mv^2. .. The speed to which a character with 18 strength can accelerate a sword blade depends on both the mass of the sword (m) and his strength (F). The physics would vary a great deal depending on whether the weapon does its damage through slashing, piercing, or blunt impact. For blunt weapons you just want to transmit as much kinetic energy (1/2mv^2) as possible to the target. With slashing weapons the momentum (mv) would seem less important for surface cuts, but more important for actually slicing deep into the body. For piercing weapons momentum is still important for deeply impaling the target. After the piercing weapon impacted the target the mass of the weapon would become less important. I think it would be interesting if the strength modifier had more effect on blunt weapons than slashing and piercing weapons.

In the real world try swinging a clawhammer, a short sledgehammer, and a long sledgehammer. The difference in the speed of your swing and the delay in retracting it is as obvious as the differing effects to whatever it is you are aiming at.
 

Moribund

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As was pointed out the mass isn't that different, though. A sledgehammer or even mason's hammer is way heavier than any real weapons.

The big advantage is mostly reach. For 2 hand sword you don't have to swing it at all to take someone off a horse, which was what it was for. Just sidestep the charge and put the blade in the path of the rider.

But you can't do much for reach in rtwp.

Also, there is an issue of handiness. A shorter weapon is easier to handle but not really faster per se. Not sure how you would express that. Critical hit bonus chance? You are probably overall more likely to hit with bigger weapon but you won't be able to make it land as accurately.
 

jewboy

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It depends what you mean by 'faster'. For angular acceleration like a sword swing the longer the blade the faster the tip would be traveling per degree of arc. In that case a 6" dagger would actually be slower than a 3' katana. For linear acceleration like stabbing/impaling the speed of the weapon would be proportional to its mass.

I'm not at all convinced that the weapon choices of real medieval combatants is all that important for a fantasy game. Probably the lack of speed of heavier weapons was more of a disadvantage than the additional momentum of its strikes. The greater momentum would cause greater damage, but it doesn't matter that much if your opponent has already chopped of your head or right arm with his sword. In the real world speed is everything and one hit kills are a lot more common, but that is not necessarily the most enjoyable way to play a strategic fighting game.

In terms of the real world I also think two handed swords have a much bigger advantage in terms of both momentum and pure speed than is typically seen in games. The two handed katana has always seemed like the only design that makes any real sense in a fight. Those European one handed swords seem useless in comparison and they are of course much easier to knock out of someone's hand. That's something I haven't seen modeled in a game before that could be an interesting dynamic.
 

Rivmusique

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Hey folks. So I've been playing with Sawyer's armor/weapon mechanics, and frankly I think it's beautiful. Imagine your weapons having "stats." This is the future. Anyway.... I think I've figured out a way of getting him to stick with the old mechanic. For those of you interested in the actual excel sheet, I finally got it working, equations and all.

Basically, Josh's game will have weapon "characters" if he sticks with the old mechanic. It's an easily understandable mechanic if they show it to the player well. It is also pretty much :incline:. Anyway, more info here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...tion-damage-vs-armor-and-a-tileset/?p=1303508
Maybe I am missing something, but both methods seem to lead to the same thing. You have your dedicated melee keep one of each type of weapon around, switching to the one most appropriate to the situation (or just to one of the 2/3 that isn't complete shit). It isn't something that would bother me in the game, just would learn what works best on each type of enemy and switch accordingly, no big deal. But it certainly doesn't add much, and I hope they are doing other things to make the games wizard-less battles interesting. In fact, it could be compared to The Witcher's steel/silver sword + stances, no?
 
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As was pointed out the mass isn't that different, though. A sledgehammer or even mason's hammer is way heavier than any real weapons.

The big advantage is mostly reach. For 2 hand sword you don't have to swing it at all to take someone off a horse, which was what it was for. Just sidestep the charge and put the blade in the path of the rider.

But you can't do much for reach in rtwp.

Also, there is an issue of handiness. A shorter weapon is easier to handle but not really faster per se. Not sure how you would express that. Critical hit bonus chance? You are probably overall more likely to hit with bigger weapon but you won't be able to make it land as accurately.

The handiness of the shorter weapon could be expressed with finer differentiations of weapon range and combatant positioning - if you are in really close a dagger attacks normally, but a larger weapon suffers a penalty. But like you say, RTwP isn't really great for mechanics that require any amount of precision in positioning. Maybe abstract it in into a kind of close engagement ability that works almost like a quasi-grapple?
 
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The author has made a D20 supplement about realistic combat. I believe it could be easily turned into a system for a computer game.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/75133/Codex-Martialis-CORE-RULES-V-23

Looks pretty interesting in theory. Too bad the sample is just the table of contents, so its tough to get an idea as to how well he implements it.

ETA: Incidentally, jewboy, you might want to read the articles linked to above for some pretty interesting discussion of realistic depictions of various weapons in an RPG. Apparently, people have LARPed so hard that they actually experimented with replica weapons and various armor types. Long and the short of it is that armor apparently works really well, so some kind of stabbing ability is important.
 

Hormalakh

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Maybe I am missing something, but both methods seem to lead to the same thing. You have your dedicated melee keep one of each type of weapon around, switching to the one most appropriate to the situation (or just to one of the 2/3 that isn't complete shit). It isn't something that would bother me in the game, just would learn what works best on each type of enemy and switch accordingly, no big deal. But it certainly doesn't add much, and I hope they are doing other things to make the games wizard-less battles interesting. In fact, it could be compared to The Witcher's steel/silver sword + stances, no?

No. different weapons have different qualities and really it depends on your character build and the enemy type and the armor they're wearing as to what weapon to use. You have some general ideas. For example you know that armors either need to be bypassed with armor-piercers or you just ignore armor altogether and just use a crushing weapon. If you have enemies that need to be killed quickly, you want to get weapons with high slashing damage. You don't have "slashing/crushing/piercing" weapons divided into neat categories. They are gradients. It isn't easy to figure out what works best, but you have general ideas.

You might give up a little slashing quality in your weapon to pick up some extra piercing quality. It's a gradient. The answer can vary on situations. It isn't a hammer and every problem isn't a nail.

Also. You can't keep every weapon around. If you've got a mail-piercer with medium damage and a leather-piercer with much higher damage, and a crusher with medium damage and a slasher with no piercing. These all have varying uses. You can't have every weapon set on your belt at all times.
 

Johannes

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If you want really detailed combat with realistic simulation as the main goal, the concept of the combatants trying to strike each other in sequence like in a typical RPG (be it TB or RT simulation) doesn't seem like a too great starting point.


But in a team-based, topdown game like this, I think the main attraction of (magic not necessarily included) fighting should be positioning and movement. 1v1 combat can be pretty rudimentary since you do have more people than that.
 
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True, might not be the best choice for PE. But for a turn based game it provides a way to make fighters much more interesting. I think even for a party based game it could be fun. It does have to be turn based though - otherwise allocating dice each round would get annoying.
 
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Allocating dice each round wouldn't be much different than allocating AP to aiming in JA2 and it works smoothly in JA2, despite the relatively high ratio of misses and prolonged encounters due to long range shooting, misses and all the running involved.
 
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Yeah, I like it for turn based. I was thinking it would get annoying in a RTwP context - it would basically guarantee that to effectively allocate each d20 you would have to pause it so frequently that the game would effectively be a shitty turn-based one.
 
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Well, that is the inherent shortcoming of RTwP. You can still have a relatively deep and complex system but you can't have too many multi-layered options (eg. dice pools or aiming % per AP, as opposed to single use-and-forget type of abilities) per unit as it negates the point of having RTwP and spoils its purpose: give orders, sit back and watch, with the occasional intervention.
 

DraQ

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And as far as realism is concerned, they usual piercing/cutting/blunt categories also don't actually make too much sense.
Take a mail armor for example, the usual paradigm is that it stops slashing attacks well, piercing mediocre, and does badly against blunt weapons. But looking at piercing weapons, it's a simple consideration whether the piercing weapon is small enough to go through a ring or not, otherwise it's as good as blunt. And a cutting weapon is as good as a blunt weapon. Then it's just a matter of how much force your blow.
Actually, you just need to force the tip of your piercing weapon into a ring, then depending on force you may succeed at breaking the links and penetrating or not.

Anyway, to address cutting/piercing/slashing:

They make whole lot of sense because they describe different approaches to dealing damage. Both cutting and piercing focus on putting their momentum in smallest possible area - point or line - in order to penetrate and disable target.
If they fail to penetrate, they do indeed turn into blunt weapons (they even do that when they succeed, although it might be lesser concern in that case and if they go all the way through they only inflict a fraction of blunt force trauma they could), the thing is that actual blunt weapons (spikes and flanges aside) are built with an assumption of failed or limited penetration, so they attempt to really make best of the blunt force trauma and deliver as much momentum and kinetic energy to the target as possible.

Ideally system should work as follows:

Weapon tries to penetrate and inflict some localized critical damage according to the depth of penetration. If successful, weapon may require special pulling out move and may get stuck, depending on the depth of penetration unless it was a slashing attack and weapon penetrated fully (meaning it either lopped off a bodypart or exited after partial cut).
Blunt weapon will either fail to penetrate or penetrate shallowly, making pulling it out non-issue.

A weapon's kinetic energy/momentum used up during (attempted) penetration is then used against target as blunt force trauma with it's own DT/DR formula.

It might make sense to split cutting into hacking and true cutting (curved. swords.), with latter being especially shitty at energy/momentum transfer being both blessing (slicing through soft targets like a pro, without stopping, inflicting massive injuries with severe bleeding and good chance of dismemberment or slashing something important, and generally ignoring padding due to not wasting energy on blunt force trauma), and curse (trying to cut through plate or mail would be just lol).

So:

-blunt dagger would be only marginally better blunt weapon than unarmed attack by non-martial-artist, and wouldn't break through golem's DT.

-soft targets that don't care about bleeding or criticals against organs (like undead) would be fucking scary to most piercing/cutting damage users because typical sequence would involve having weapon get stuck in the target or overpenetrate on thrust, target not particularly minding it and proceeding to nom wielder's face.
Your best bet would be either bludgeoning them, which might not be particularly effective, but at least doesn't create risk of having your weapon stuck in unfazed target, or using some really good true cutting weapon, that can be counted to enter *and* exit, and just lopping them to pieces to ensure their incapacitation.
 
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Also just went through the previous two pages. Reading the talks about twitch muscles, "laws of physics" and all this "recovery" and "set-up for next attack" made me give off a huge facepalm.

Ancient or medieval people didn't build weapons based on physical calculations. They built weapons to kill other people with weapons. In both European and Eastern martial arts, there are instructions on how to fight with several types of weapons against several others. Twitch muscles or momentum based on rigid hypothetical calculations are irrelevant. There is no such thing as a "slow" or a "fast" weapon. Weapons are fast because people have developed the right techniques to use them fast. Obviously, there will still be marginal "speed" discrepancies based on different weapons of same types or physical characteristics of wielders but weapons can only be considered outright slow or fast in an ignorantly direct comparison to one another. Eg, if you tried to use a spear the exact same way you would a sword or vice versa, then obviously you wouldn't get much mileage out of it, as they are built to be used in different ways and hence, the same physical calculations cannot be applied to all in the same way.

Likewise with "recovery" and whatnot. "Recovery" is a fuck-up. If you need to recover, there's a good chance you are dead. Don't buy into the Hollywood bullshit of clumsy "parrying". One common and fundamental foundation to all martial arts is that once the weapons connect, the combatants work around the opponent's weapon for an opportunity to strike. That is, they keep the weapons connected while trying to make swift maneuvers around the weapons so that they maintain a level of control on the opponent's weapon to keep it from striking while trying to strike with your own, which usually goes over in seconds (not the entire encounter). If you disconnect unprepared, you are as good as dead, so you try not to until you can afford to, or you try to strike without disconnecting. And there are instructions that account for most circumstances in which the weapons would end up disconnecting, so as to prevent fatal mistakes like "recovery" which basically means giving the opponent an opportunity for a quick kill, so that the opponents will be ready to strike again once they disconnect, without opening themselves up for a quick kill. It can be as tactical and precise or hectic and random as the experience of the opponents.

There are other considerations than "speed" eg. footwork and distance, that are more relevant to the differences between weapon types.

Now, that different weapons take different levels of exertion and fatigue, is a given. But generally speaking, if a weapon cannot be used fast enough against various other weapons, then it's not fit for use as a weapon at all. Perhaps it would be a great tool for farming and gardening.
 

hiver

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Everyone except complete newbs knows you go for the legs first, than hands and then the rest - when it comes to undead. And that setting them on fire works great. The problem only presents itself when the game just decides not to let you aim at legs and decides to completely disregard everything about how fire actually works.

I would rather have zombie-like undead grappling whatever comes close, effectively disabling powerful strikes of those they grab, which proceed to develop into limb or joint breaking on the next turn - if an ally doesnt cut them off before that.
While Vampires would have superior speed, wall and ceiling crawling, mesmerize-stun-fear eyeballing tricks, grappling (like Bloodrayne) and of course biting, with several effects including hidden delayed ones.

Ghouls would have the speed, wall climbing, grappling and biting attacks producing few different diseases.

etc.
 
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It might make sense to split cutting into hacking and true cutting (curved. swords.), with latter being especially shitty at energy/momentum transfer being both blessing

How so?

Also, shouldn't there be a distinction between "slashing" and "cutting/chopping"? You can "slash" with spear and sword alike. It's the tip of the blade that matters. Minimal kinetic transfer due to the small surface on contact but still lethal and perhaps harder to perform due to the precise distance you need to manage. You attempt to cut/chop with the expectation that the blade will go through or will penetrate deep and if it doesn't, kinetic transfer can be substantial.
 

St. Toxic

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I would rather have zombie-like undead grappling whatever comes close

Not gonna happen, mang. It's too much work to animate a zombie grappling all the various things that might come close. Grappling an ooze, a midget, a dragon -- this shit is just too resource intensive.
 

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