Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #44: On Melee Engagement

[FeelTheRads]

Just realized that Zeriel guy is probably confusing Heart of Fury with Heart of Winter. Then his question would make more sense, I guess.

 

[Zeriel]

Just realized that Zeriel guy is probably confusing Heart of Fury with Heart of Winter. Then his question would make more sense, I guess.

Heart of Winter was the expansion that added the Heart of Fury mode. It didn't exist before then. As for IWD2, my memories of it are so blurry, all I really remember is that the starting town was cool, and the last dungeon was a long puzzlefest.

 

[Mrowak]

In before of a full party of Grimoire Bashing mages that invested all their XPs in accuracy and melee, great idea provide a class with an indestructible weapon from the get go, game balance at its finest.

All weapons are indestructible in games where weapons can't be damaged. I doubt the books will do a significant amount of damage; the benefit is in pushing them back.

Similarly now we have this little innocent skill that is just silly. It means very little on its own, but knowing Obsidian it may signify the shift into pulp and slapstick - with "wacky" skills, spells, abilities, events, quests - you name it. This goes against the whole "mature" and "serious" RPG "with great story" schtick they promised in their Kickstarter pitch video.

I don't see how. All their games have absurd (all the things you listed).

Which isn't generally held as a point in their favour.

It just undermines the expected tone of the game and the little of the lore we know: the world without printing press, where Wizards scribe their powerful spells in priceless grimoires, without which they are reduced to babbling madmen. Yeah, sure such treasures will make great weapons; nothing ain't gonna happen to them because, you know, it's *magic* and *fantasy* - coherence, cohesion and suspension of disbelief be damned.

Josh has made it clear for over a decade that balance will always win over attempts at realism as far he's concerned.

Jebus R. Christ... it's not realism I am concerned about but the "serious", "mature" storytelling aspect they hyped in the Kickstarter pitch. But while you are at it, it would be fun if for once they could implement storytelling within the gameplay, for once...

Also balance winning over anything in Obsidian game? This is like the crucial aspect they are legendary to have problems with. Hint: realism or lack of thereof, it usually was not the reason for the gameplay sucking.

 

[Roguey]

Which isn't generally held as a point in their favour.

Nor against them either.

Jebus R. Christ... it's not realism I am concerned about but the "serious", "mature" storytelling aspect they hyped in the Kickstarter pitch.

Infinitron quoted you to Sawyer who replied back with "That's a really bizarre assumption."
You'd agree that Torment attempted "serious" "mature" storytelling right?

Also balance winning over anything in Obsidian game? This is like the crucial aspect they are legendary to have problems with. Hint: realism or lack of thereof, it usually was not the reason for the gameplay sucking.

Josh hasn't been involved in very many of their games. He joined NWN2 near the end, was kept busy with Aliens for several years, and then moved to Fallout New Vegas, which is about as balanced as Fallout 3-derived gameplay can get with his personal mod.

 

[Mrowak]

Which isn't generally held as a point in their favour.

Nor against them either.

Jebus R. Christ... it's not realism I am concerned about but the "serious", "mature" storytelling aspect they hyped in the Kickstarter pitch.

Infinitron quoted you to Sawyer who replied back with "That's a really bizarre assumption."

EDIT: Yeah I saw that. Except, that's what they pitched. Just listen to their initial video, the keywords "moral complexity, mature themes, this project will allow unparalled amounts of depth we couldn't achieve in the previous titles, M rated game, mature topics we can explore, etc."

Slapstick kinda undermines that. Sure they are free to make whatever they want, and just go bananas with the crazy shit all over the place. Except it does not enhance their storytelling and can have an adverse impact on it. Let's ask ourselves a simple question: what is the point of the "book bash" ability? Why is it there?

I know this "book" issue is pretty basic and quite frankly it's stupid to even argue about it. My point is to explain why the outcry even took place, and that some sentiments may actually have been well-funded, albeit ill-voiced.

You'd agree that Torment attempted "serious" "mature" storytelling right?

That's not Obsidian game.

Besides, this stuff fits the established lore and the tone of the story... which was not that mature, actually. In fact PS:T is pretty much as adolescent and visceral as you could get (e.g. "What can change a nature of man", "regret/everything we believe in" could actually be taken straight from Twighlight books) . Not that it's always a bad thing - it managed to pull that off by having some quality writing and quite decent gameplay-storytelling integration.

Also balance winning over anything in Obsidian game? This is like the crucial aspect they are legendary to have problems with. Hint: realism or lack of thereof, it usually was not the reason for the gameplay sucking.

Josh hasn't been involved in very many of their games. He joined NWN2 near the end, was kept busy with Aliens for several years, and then moved to Fallout New Vegas, which is about as balanced as Fallout 3-derived gameplay can get with his personal mod.[/quote]

So, we'll wait and see...

 

[Infinitron]

These comparisons with PS:T are ridiculous. The Planescape setting is supposed to be weird and off-beat. I don't believe that's true for the Dyrwood.

 

[Excidium]

I thought CDPROJEKT had trademarked mature and serious storytelling for adults only

These comparisons with PS:T are ridiculous. The Planescape setting is supposed to be weird and off-beat. I don't believe that's true for the Dyrwood.

Shh...let them argue. I still haven't filled the retarded bullshit quota of the day.

 

[Roguey]

EDIT: Yeah I saw that. Except, that's what they pitched. Just listen to their initial video, the keywords "moral complexity, mature themes, this project will allow unparalled amounts of depth we couldn't achieve in the previous titles, M rated game, mature topics we can explore, etc."

Slapstick kinda undermines that. Sure they are free to make whatever they want, and just go bananas with the crazy shit all over the place. Except it does not enhance their storytelling and can have an adverse impact on it. Let's ask ourselves a simple question: what is the point of the "book bash" ability? Why is it there?

He explained it in his Formspring comments.

Besides, this stuff fits the established lore and the tone of the story... which was not that mature, actually. In fact PS:T is pretty much as adolescent and visceral as you could get (e.g. "What can change a nature of man", "regret/everything we believe in" could actually be taken straight from Twighlight books) . Not that it's always a bad thing - it managed to pull that off by having some quality writing and quite decent gameplay-storytelling integration.

I think Obsidian would disagree, e.g. "and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

These comparisons with PS:T are ridiculous. The Planescape setting is supposed to be weird and off-beat. I don't believe that's true for the Dyrwood.

"Weird, silly stuff is okay in this fantasy setting, but not this fantasy setting (of which I barely know anything about)" is what I'm seeing.

 

[Infinitron]

"Weird, silly stuff is okay in this fantasy setting, but not this fantasy setting" is what I'm seeing.

Yes. The ability to distinguish between different things. Incredible, isn't it?

 

[Roguey]

"Weird, silly stuff is okay in this fantasy setting, but not this fantasy setting" is what I'm seeing.

Yes. The ability to distinguish between different things. Incredible, isn't it?

I don't see how it makes a difference. Seems kinda arbitrary to me, with some rose-tinted glasses on the side.

 

[Zeriel]

"Weird, silly stuff is okay in this fantasy setting, but not this fantasy setting" is what I'm seeing.

Yes. The ability to distinguish between different things. Incredible, isn't it?

Uh, bro, thematically, Planescape and Forgotten Realms Eternityland are identical. Didn't you know that?

 

[Rake]

"Weird, silly stuff is okay in this fantasy setting, but not this fantasy setting" is what I'm seeing.

Yes. The ability to distinguish between different things. Incredible, isn't it?

I don't see how it makes a difference. Seems kinda arbitrary to me, with some rose-tinted glasses on the side.

You are the one who said Adam mentioned "let's do BG2 only better", or that the quotes from Sawyer that the setting they aim for isn't bizzare. So no, i don't believe that Dyrwood can get away with things Planescape did. The tone of a setting should be cohesive. Planescape was over the top and wacky from start to finish. From what we have seen from P:E so far it has a more grounded and "realistic" vibe. If they had said that the setting will be crazy-shit-all-over-the-place i would be ok with it. But it's one or the other. You can't have a serious overall tone and then throw some random anime staff in there.It stands out. I can't imagine my IWD or BG mage hitting someone with a book. Fro the IE games only P:T was strange enough to have such a ability that doesn't stand out.

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, what happened to "Dullsville" anyway?

 

[Harold]

In their final hours stream, Avellone said 'it won't be as bizzare as Planescape [Torment], but it will be as deep as Planescape [Torment]'. Then he said 'woooo'.

 

[tuluse]

There was plenty of intentionally silly things in BG1/2 as well. Remember the Golden Pantaloons or Noober?

And fuck, if there is one thing Obsidian can be trusted to get right, I think it's the overall tone and lore bits.

 

[Infinitron]

There was plenty of intentionally silly things in BG1/2 as well. Remember the Golden Pantaloons or Noober?

Easter eggs/side jokes vs game mechanics.

Having Minsc and Boo in your game is one thing. Giving Minsc a "Space Hamster Eye Attack!" special ability is another.

 

[Lancehead]

I think this Grimoire Slam-gate is somewhat ironic considering one would expect "serious" stuff from Sawyer and not wacky.

 

[tuluse]

Luckily using a magic book as a weapon isn't on that level of silly either.

And Minsc did lose a quick weapon slot because that's where Boo was.

 

[Lancehead]

To me the level of sillyness of Grimoire Slam depends on how the animation looks.

 

[Kz3r0]

There was plenty of intentionally silly things in BG1/2 as well. Remember the Golden Pantaloons or Noober?

And fuck, if there is one thing Obsidian can be trusted to get right, I think it's the overall tone and lore bits.

So, are you saying that they are staying true to their source of inspiration?
In before romances then.

 

[Kz3r0]

I think this Grimoire Slam-gate is somewhat ironic considering one would expect "serious" stuff from Sawyer and not wacky.

That's the tragedy, he is serious about this, it's not tongue in cheek.
Aspies gonna aspie I guess.

 

[J_C]

There was plenty of intentionally silly things in BG1/2 as well. Remember the Golden Pantaloons or Noober?

Easter eggs/side jokes vs game mechanics.

Grimoire slam is not a game mechanics problem for many. Several people said that they would be ok with a power blast or staff attack instead of slamming heads. The effect would be the same only the animation and name would be different.

 

[Roguey]

You are the one who said Adam mentioned "let's do BG2 only better", or that the quotes from Sawyer that the setting they aim for isn't bizzare. So no, i don't believe that Dyrwood can get away with things Planescape did. The tone of a setting should be cohesive. Planescape was over the top and wacky from start to finish. From what we have seen from P:E so far it has a more grounded and "realistic" vibe. If they had said that the setting will be crazy-shit-all-over-the-place i would be ok with it. But it's one or the other. You can't have a serious overall tone and then throw some random anime staff in there.It stands out. I can't imagine my IWD or BG mage hitting someone with a book. Fro the IE games only P:T was strange enough to have such a ability that doesn't stand out.

"I want my fantasy setting with roots in generica grounded and realistic!" Pfffffffffffffffffffft
Your IWD and BG mages won't be in this game. And all your characters do over-the-top things with soul powers.

Having Minsc and Boo in your game is one thing. Giving Minsc a "Space Hamster Eye Attack!" special ability is another.

http://www.gamejag.net/forum/index.php?/topic/4848-where-oh-where-has-my-little-boo-gone/page-1

Now...the discussion on exactly what would be done with Boo was what caused this plot to be put off until 'later' in the first place.
We all agreed that the druid would have enspelled Boo to live longer and be far more durable. None of us liked considering what a hamster's lifespan might actually be and, indeed, whether this was even the first 'Boo' that Minsc has ever owned (denial is a wonderful thing). It would be a cool way to negate that problem...Boo lives as long as Minsc does.
The trouble was that most of us thought that Minsc should receive some kind of reward for going through this sub-plot. Boo should give Minsc some extra abilities or do something extra. Luke, Minsc's writer, has always been the most adamant one that Boo is just an ordinary hamster. He doesn't really go for the eyes and, for God's sake, he is NOT actually a miniature Giant Space Hamster.
OK, we could accept the not being a miniature Giant Space Hamster thing, but Luke was also opposed to Boo being anything other than an ordinary hamster ever. As Minsc's writer (and also the one who would have written this plot), one has to consider what he thinks, of course (especially with James being ambivalent about the whole thing). But there had to be SOME reward...which is where talks broke down.
Our ideas? Boo's natural intelligence has been heightened (Minsc scoffs at this, of course, saying a miniature Giant Space Hamster wouldn't need such a thing..."Boy, you fooled him, Boo!") and his newfound 'advice' gives Minsc a permanent bonus to his ThAC0 and AC.
Alternatively, Boo could now be 'useable' in combat...when his button is selected, you hear some hamster squeaks and Boo's 'advice' gives Minsc a temporary bonus to ThAC0 and AC, as well as making him immune to Backstab for the duration (that extra pair of eyes helps).
Of course, some said that if the player was going to have to go through the whole long quest to recover Boo, all while having Minsc debilitated, he had better god-damn-well now really go for the eyes. Besides the normal advice bonuses, Boo's ability is a 'spell' effect. Casting it on a nearby creature makes Minsc say his line ("Go for the eyes, Boo...!") and a second later the nearby creature is hit for 1 HP of damage. He also suffers from Blindness for 3 rounds and Confusion for 3 (during those three rounds he also suffers an extra 1 HP of damage again on the 2nd and 3rd round). MR is by-passed (it's not magic), although maybe a save applies. Boo's icon will disappear for the moment but he will 'find his way back' after 6 rounds.

 

[SCO]

 

[Orma]

Wow this J_C guy is always getting pushed around.

Well, JESawyer isn't really well in the head lately i guess.