Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #44: On Melee Engagement

[Alex]

At this point, it might be wise for Obsidian to take a page out of Chaos Chronicles and just focus on making the game. Keep a lower profile, tone down the marketing and PR releases. This has gone beyond legitimate constructive criticism and community feedback, to where design decisions are now being openly mocked.

They've already taken a page out of Grimoire. Literally, it would seem.

Eh, I think people are just trying to be funny. I know I was, at least. Personally, I thin it is a silly decision to use th grimoire bash as it is presented. But it isn't like my respect for Obsidian lowered because of that (you would need something like Alpha Protocol for that).

 

[Mrowak]

It still sounds like something taken straight up from a jRPG.

It is not actually just like something taken straight out from a jRPG. It is taken straight out from one.

Edit: Not to mention...

Yeah, I kinda recollected similar scenes from these games, although I forgot the titles.

Which brings me to explain, why (from my perspective) people here *really* find it silly and quite frankly borderline offensive, which causes all sort of overreaction.

It still sounds like something taken straight up from a jRPG. I mean, staffslam/wandslam I could get... but bashing shit with your most precious book is just But whatever suits them. The way the ability works is interesting, albeit very circumstantial.

I'm getting the impression the magical properties of grimoires makes them practically indestructible.


It's also an optional talent (P:E equivalent of feats) you can buy. Anyone who think it's dumb can choose not to waste a point on it and rely on crowd control spells instead.

You see the problem is not with having a feature like that itself, but what it is likely signify. We need to look at a larger picture.

Let's go back in time and look at the reaction of various parties to the major shift in art direction in Diablo 3. If you looked just at the gameplay aspect it was a minor issue that couldn't have affected anything, right? That's what most Blizzdrones claimed. But even then it was clear to the detractors of this change that there was and underlying meaning in ite which would affect all other facests of this game. Sure, this group may not have voiced their concerns well enough, but they had a point. The point was clearly seen in the final product when something so trivial as changing colour palate proved but a symptom of general casualisation of the title - a hallmark of the game's decline in its entirety.

Similarly now we have this little innocent skill that is just silly. It means very little on its own, but knowing Obsidian it may signify the shift into pulp and slapstick - with "wacky" skills, spells, abilities, events, quests - you name it. This goes against the whole "mature" and "serious" RPG "with great story" schtick they promised in their Kickstarter pitch video. It just undermines the expected tone of the game and the little of the lore we know: the world without printing press, where Wizards scribe their powerful spells in priceless grimoires, without which they are reduced to babbling madmen. Yeah, sure such treasures will make great weapons; nothing ain't gonna happen to them because, you know, it's *magic* and *fantasy* - coherence, cohesion and suspension of disbelief be damned.

Of course I am taking it now out of all proportions, but this is Codex - we *must* be ready for the worst . Besides, I am a declared bibliophile, and using books as if they were bricks is just...

 

[Infinitron]

Mrowak I just posted some of that on Sawyer's Formspring.

 

[Cool name]

grimouirs

You know I'd hug you to death but that shit is not going to fly.

 

[Mrowak]

grimouirs

You know I'd hug you to death but that shit is not going to fly.

It ain't. Fixing it now. Sleep deprivation kinda does this to me. I struggled to make the whole argument coherent, so spelling was the first sacrifice. Going to sleep now... zzzzzz

 

[Dorateen]

At this point, it might be wise for Obsidian to take a page out of Chaos Chronicles and just focus on making the game. Keep a lower profile, tone down the marketing and PR releases. This has gone beyond legitimate constructive criticism and community feedback, to where design decisions are now being openly mocked.

They've already taken a page out of Grimoire. Literally, it would seem.

Eh, I think people are just trying to be funny. I know I was, at least. Personally, I thin it is a silly decision to use th grimoire bash as it is presented. But it isn't like my respect for Obsidian lowered because of that (you would need something like Alpha Protocol for that).

It is entertaining as hell.

I think, however, a line was crossed. They are being laughed at. I am commenting on the reaction to this particular update. Do you think it makes the designers look good or inspires any sort of faith in their competence? I think it makes them look foolish. Now if this was just a rare mis-step or poorly articulated explanation of a gameplay mechanic, then by all means let them carry on.

 

[Roguey]

In before of a full party of Grimoire Bashing mages that invested all their XPs in accuracy and melee, great idea provide a class with an indestructible weapon from the get go, game balance at its finest.

All weapons are indestructible in games where weapons can't be damaged. I doubt the books will do a significant amount of damage; the benefit is in pushing them back.

Similarly now we have this little innocent skill that is just silly. It means very little on its own, but knowing Obsidian it may signify the shift into pulp and slapstick - with "wacky" skills, spells, abilities, events, quests - you name it. This goes against the whole "mature" and "serious" RPG "with great story" schtick they promised in their Kickstarter pitch video.

I don't see how. All their games have absurd (all the things you listed).

It just undermines the expected tone of the game and the little of the lore we know: the world without printing press, where Wizards scribe their powerful spells in priceless grimoires, without which they are reduced to babbling madmen. Yeah, sure such treasures will make great weapons; nothing ain't gonna happen to them because, you know, it's *magic* and *fantasy* - coherence, cohesion and suspension of disbelief be damned.

Josh has made it clear for over a decade that balance will always win over attempts at realism as far he's concerned.

 

[Infinitron]

The manifestation of this ability as "Grimoire Smash" is pure fluff, Roguey. It could just as easily be the much more acceptable "Grimoire Pulse", without having to sacrifice "balance".

 

[Roguey]

The manifestation of this ability as "Grimoire Smash" is pure fluff, Roguey. It could just as easily be the much more acceptable "Grimoire Pulse", without having to sacrifice "balance".

What's a pulse? Because it sounds like it wouldn't need an attack roll and this feature needs an attack roll.

 

[Irenaeus]

It's stupid. Frail old men don't go bashing warriors with books. Energy pulse is more logical.

 

[Infinitron]

The manifestation of this ability as "Grimoire Smash" is pure fluff, Roguey. It could just as easily be the much more acceptable "Grimoire Pulse", without having to sacrifice "balance".

What's a pulse? Because it sounds like it wouldn't need an attack roll and this feature needs an attack roll.

Make it a touch attack, then.

 

[Roguey]

It's stupid. Frail old men don't go bashing warriors with books. Energy pulse is more logical.

I've noticed a lot of youse are fixated with the whole "mages must be frail and weak" thing when that's not even necessarily the case with Eternity.

These are not frail old men. Bashing baddies with books fits their concept fine.

 

[winterraptor]

All the haters. They should expand on this brilliant idea!

Grimoire Grapple - seize smaller foes with the opened book and soul energy, holding them fast for a short duration and scalding them periodically with the baleful magical force!
Grimoire Crush - if already successful with a grapple, reinforce the soul power with doubled efforts, doing even more damage and potentially holding them disabled even longer!
Grimoire Boomerang - extend the range of a Grimoire Smash with this handy enchantment/soul technique, throwing the deadly book from afar to strike a foe with enhanced soulful force, and it will return to one's hands, after!
Grim Animus - This advanced technique animates the Grimoire - flapping it's pages to hover in the air, it attacks independently any foe in range, doing excellent soulish damage while also potentially distracting them and forcing them to waste attacks on
it's indestructable form!
Grimoire Ultimate Combo - This 7-part technique involves one continuous chain of grappling, crushing, striking, and more advanced moves, a furious soul barrage sure to cripple or destroy all but the hardiest of foes!!!! But watch out, this attack is
soul-expensive, requires melee, and takes time to prepare!

The possibilities are endless!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hiver]

It could just as easily be the much more acceptable "Grimoire Pulse", without having to sacrifice "balance".

That would be much better, yes.
- would be nice if it had some small cost too.

 

[jewboy]

I like the ambitious attempt to do AoO in RTwP although that would require some serious playtesting to make sure it's viable, but the wizard hitting a foe with a book is a ridiculous idea whether or not it is a sort of magic capacitor. I don't like the idea of wizards also having good melee attacks. To me it spoils the whole idea of magic users. The wizard's awful to hit roll might make it irrelevant anyway. I'm not thrilled about the idea of the grimoire having any physical effects at all. It's a book FFS. It should impart mystical knowledge and that's all. Making it a weapon makes no sense.

 

[Infinitron]

I like the ambitious attempt to do AoO in RTwP although that would require some serious playtesting to make sure it's viable, but the wizard hitting a foe with a book is a ridiculous idea whether or not it is a sort of magic capacitor. I don't like the idea of wizards also having good melee attacks. To me it spoils the whole idea of magic users. The wizard's awful to hit roll might make it irrelevant anyway. I'm not thrilled about the idea of the grimoire having any physical effects at all. It's a book FFS. It should impart mystical knowledge and that's all. Making it a weapon makes no sense.

I had a talk with Mr. Sawyer about that: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-eternity-thread.75947/page-576#post-2520301

 

[Gozma]

I am listening to this Grimoire Slam talk from you guys while boiling with RTwP hatred. It's like being in a an emergency room with a bunch of other people with heavy metal poisoning while they complain that it is making their breath smell like vanilla

 

[Kz3r0]

I am listening to this Grimoire Slam talk from you guys while boiling with RTwP hatred. It's like being in a an emergency room with a bunch of other people with heavy metal poisoning while they complain that it is making their breath smell like vanilla

You have a point considering that all the silliness seems to stem from trying to adapt TB to RTwP.

 

[Infinitron]

I am listening to this Grimoire Slam talk from you guys while boiling with RTwP hatred. It's like being in a an emergency room with a bunch of other people with heavy metal poisoning while they complain that it is making their breath smell like vanilla

You have a point considering that all the silliness seems to stem from trying to adapt TB to RTwP.

I don't get this. TB can suffer from a form of kiting too. And it also needs some kind of "engagement" mechanism to prevent characters from walking right by a fighter. These are not inherently real-time concepts.

 

[Kosmonaut]

But they work better in TB.

 

[Tytus]

The pen is mightier than the sword:

 

[Zeriel]

I am listening to this Grimoire Slam talk from you guys while boiling with RTwP hatred. It's like being in a an emergency room with a bunch of other people with heavy metal poisoning while they complain that it is making their breath smell like vanilla

You have a point considering that all the silliness seems to stem from trying to adapt TB to RTwP.

I don't get this. TB can suffer from a form of kiting too. And it also needs some kind of "engagement" mechanism to prevent characters from walking right by a fighter. These are not inherently real-time concepts.

TB generally abstracts "attacks" into all-inclusive action/time points, which makes kiting well AND doing damage close to impossible. RTwP obviously allows you to do both simultaneously, since attacks are often instantaneous, and can be done in the midst of kiting while stutter-stepping.

(Pure real-time systems have this issue, too, but are much more likely to approach it from a holistic game design perspective. And RTwP's execution of those solutions is always inevitably half-assed, just like RTwP itself is utterly half-assed.)

 

[Infinitron]

TB generally abstracts "attacks" into all-inclusive action/time points, which makes kiting well AND doing damage close to impossible.

Impossible? That depends on how many action points you have, doesn't it?

just like RTwP itself is utterly half-assed.

This is another thing I don't get. Take one of those "holistic" real-time systems you mentioned. Then add a pause function. Has it now instantaneously become "half-assed"?

 

[Kz3r0]

just like RTwP itself is utterly half-assed.

This is another thing I don't get. Take one of those "holistic" real-time systems you mentioned. Then add a pause function. Has it now instantaneously become "half-assed"?

Think VATS.
Or bullet time, AKA slo-mo in modern shooters.

 

[Zeriel]

TB generally abstracts "attacks" into all-inclusive action/time points, which makes kiting well AND doing damage close to impossible.

Impossible? That depends on how many action points you have, doesn't it?

just like RTwP itself is utterly half-assed.

This is another thing I don't get. Take one of those "holistic" real-time systems you mentioned. Then add a pause function. Has it now instantaneously become "half-assed"?

Uhh... take a system designed and balanced around something, then completely change that something? Yeah, you've just instantly made it half-assed. Presumedly you could make a system that would make RTwP not garbage, but we have yet to see said system, which strikes me as a little peculiar if the format is capable of anything good. Of course, there's probably a lot of that tied up into the fact that the only major dev houses that have done RTwP are Obsidian/Black Isle and Bioware, neither of which have ever developed good combat.

Edit: I didn't feel like addressing your action points remark because it seems really, really silly to the point where I'm pretty sure even you didn't mean it seriously, but here goes: yes, but since the system requires you to use movement points to make attacks or any other significant action, you're just talking about a relative comparison of power. If both characters have the same number of action points, kiting and attacking again becomes impossible. Characters with more movement points just fall into the category of "cool character design", since it comes at the cost of something else. I can think of ways to abstract this into the RTwP system, but they basically all boil down to "making RTwP more like turn-based".