Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #58: Crafting and Durability

[jagged-jimmy]

Crossposting from other thread:

You start a dungeon with weapons at maximum duration and party members with maximum health.

As you progress, both degrade. Party members lose health, weapons lose durability. Your situation becomes more dangerous. Tradeoffs need to be made. Should you avoid using your best weapon, so it remains at full durability for the final boss of the dungeon? These are interesting challenges.

It's clear that Project Eternity is going to be a heavily dungeon-centric game, and that needs to be taken into account when assessing its design. Many aspects of PE's design rely on the existence of a "strategic context"/resource degradation of a long dungeon crawl. Certainly, durability is less useful in a game where you're constantly wandering around in cities, like BG2.

You mean challenges, like wearing 4-5 upgraded weapons in Dead Island - another game with veery fast degrade.

 

[Smejki]

As you progress, both degrade. Party members lose health, weapons lose durability. Your situation becomes more dangerous. Tradeoffs need to be made. Should you avoid using your best weapon, so it remains at full durability for the final boss of the dungeon?

Are you blind?

Good update. Seems alright feature to me.
anyway,

Items have lots of units of durability,

ok crybabies? lots? is that enough?

What's the point then?

The usual counter logic.

The point should be to increase the gameplay.

The effective point is that it will probably simulate weapon degradation over a reasonable amount of time. Just like in real world, weapons degrade, but you really have to be a dumbass and totally incompetent to totally ruin it or to be unable to find someone to fix them, or bring them up to shape if necessary.

That's why there is the "worn" state which serves as an alarm to you that the piece needs repairing. A state which you are blabering about in your OP
Or would you rather have full detail full 3D full simulation where you would zoom in onto the item and ispect all its parts whether they need repair/replacement? (or, cause we're olskool here, have an endless Dwarf Fortress-like description of the state of the item or list of its subparts?)

 

[Irenaeus]

have an endless Dwarf Fortress-like description of the state of the item or list of its subparts?)

 

[crawlkill]

You are right, they should simply have a mana bar, health bar, give infinite pots, and allow people to hack and slash through to easy victories, you know... because people will cheat it anyway. Tardsole on brother!

Because any of this shit would totally be a real challenge, right? Clickin on dat repair button? Puttin points into dat repair skill? It's filler, chummer. Padding.

 

[hiver]

monkey sinks

sounds dangerous

made a typo... liked it, reconsidered.

 

[hiver]

What's the point then?

The usual counter logic.

The point should be to increase the gameplay.

The effective point is that it will probably simulate weapon degradation over a reasonable amount of time. Just like in real world, weapons degrade, but you really have to be a dumbass and totally incompetent to totally ruin it or to be unable to find someone to fix them, or bring them up to shape if necessary.[/quote]
That's why there is the "worn" state which serves as an alarm to you that the piece needs repairing. A state which you are blabering about in your OP
[/QUOTE]
-edit- How exactly does this sentence of yours correlates to what i said?
btw, blabbering is intelligible stream of sounds.

And by the look of it - thats what youre doing. Nice failed attempt at projection.

Or would you rather have full detail full 3D full simulation

o_O

where you would zoom in onto the item and ispect all its parts whether they need repair/replacement? (or, cause we're olskool here, have an endless Dwarf Fortress-like description of the state of the item or list of its subparts?)

wut?

Like... wt fuck - Wut?

You are right, they should simply have a mana bar, health bar, give infinite pots, and allow people to hack and slash through to easy victories, you know... because people will cheat it anyway. Tardsole on brother!

Because any of this shit would totally be a real challenge, right? Clickin on dat repair button? Puttin points into dat repair skill? It's filler, chummer. Padding.

Cant you tell its heavy sarcasm?

 

[Darth Roxor]

A-HA! THERE'S A BLOW INCOMING.

I KNOW PRECISELY WHERE IT SHOULD STRIKE ME TO INFLICT LESS DAMAGE ON MY ARMOUR!!

:twitches awkwardly a bit towards the blow to be hit in a more desirable place:

There was not a single game that profitted from item durability. It was alright-ish in Nox because you didn't have constant access to repairing which led to some hilarious inventory juggling, but that's about it. It was a non-issue in SS2 when you realised you can just keep shooting, ignore maintenance and just repair the guns back to working conditions when they jam. And that's basically it. Everything else was either annoying or pointless, and those qualities are hardly desirable.

 

[crawlkill]

Cant you tell its heavy sarcasm?

...are you fully literate? I'm saying repair features aren't "challenging."

 

[Infinitron]

crawlkill
Repairing isn't a challenge, no. Going through a dungeon with busted up armor, trying to prevent it from becoming even more busted, is a challenge.

 

[hiver]

Cant you tell its heavy sarcasm?

...are you fully literate? I'm saying repair features aren't "challenging."

What does it have to do with his sarcastic sentence? oh fully literal one.

- they arent challenging as... what? combat? do all skills have to be challenging? and which one specifically? or is it all indiscriminately? by whose authority? your highness the shitpile? and why would "repair" specifically be expected to be "challenging"? you wanna play a minigame?

huh?

 

[crawlkill]

crawlkill
Repairing isn't a challenge, no. Going through a dungeon with busted up armor, trying to prevent it from becoming even more busted, is a challenge.

And would you do that, or would you repair it every time you got to town so it never became an issue/go back to town if it broke?

 

[Infinitron]

crawlkill
Repairing isn't a challenge, no. Going through a dungeon with busted up armor, trying to prevent it from becoming even more busted, is a challenge.

And would you do that, or would you repair it every time you got to town so it never became an issue/go back to town if it broke?

What if you couldn't avoid it? It's all about how the game is tuned and balanced. If the dungeon is long enough, it can always be an issue.

The problem is that RPGs these days are designed for idiots, and typically the only way these kind of "resource loss" situations can ever happen in them is if the player isn't paying attention and not bothering to do the bare minimum.

So I can understand that this type of situation is hard to imagine.

 

[crawlkill]

Repairing isn't a challenge, no. Going through a dungeon with busted up armor, trying to prevent it from becoming even more busted, is a challenge. The problem is that RPGs these days are designed for idiots, and typically the only way these kind of "resource loss" situations can ever happen in them is if the player isn't paying attention and not bothering to do the bare minimum.

But attempts to "hardcorify" and "bechallengize" games seem almost always to end up as nothing more than tacked-on annoyances. My favorite ever was dying of dehydration in my sleep in New Vegas. I think if you're looking to make a game challenging, the place to start is in the combat, not in the upkeep. If they can somehow make maintenance compelling and not just a requirement/encouragement to go trudging back to town every time something randomly breaks (looking at you, Baldur's Gate 1), well, then maybe you're right. But I suspect it'll just be another semi-invisible entirely missable non-gameplay element. Not causing any problems, just...not memorable or contribute-y in any way.

 

[Cynic]

Dark Souls durability was definitely a concern. You fucked up your weapon and you're far from a Smith or bonfire? Yeah you're fucked.

Crafting was a lot of fun in ToEE (co8) and Vagrant Story. If you have gone on some hidden quest and gotten some item that you don't know what the fuck it is, it's always nice to find out it can be used to craft something good.

 

[Liston]

But attempts to "hardcorify" and "bechallengize" games seem almost always to end up as nothing more than tacked-on annoyances. My favorite ever was dying of dehydration in my sleep in New Vegas. I think if you're looking to make a game challenging, the place to start is in the combat, not in the upkeep. If they can somehow make maintenance compelling and not just a requirement/encouragement to go trudging back to town every time something randomly breaks (looking at you, Baldur's Gate 1), well, then maybe you're right. But I suspect it'll just be another semi-invisible entirely missable non-gameplay element. Not causing any problems, just...not memorable or contribute-y in any way.

Upkeep can be interesting if you include some kind of decision making. The problem is that upkeep is usually trivial to deal with, you have to perform some banal activity on regular intervals throughout the game or be hit with the penalty, to make it worse time is not a valuable resource so the game will wait for you to go to town to click repair. To make it interesting upkeep have to have some opportunity cost ie every time you have a chance for upkeep you have to make a decision between clicking repair and some other beneficial activity. Additionally to make the decision nontrivial there has to be important resource that is spent for each activity otherwise there is no decision making because you would just do all activities sequentially.

Games that did it right are for example Jagged Alliance 2 where every time you repaired your equipment you could have trained militia or trained your skills, also while you were "camping" contracts of your mercs were running out and enemy can attack your cities so you couldn't just camp whenever you feel like it and when you need repairs the most you maybe wouldn't have the time for it so you had to plan ahead. Another example is Expeditions: Conquistador where you always had to choose between maintenance (guarding, hunting) and acquiring new resources (patrolling, crafting, research) and you had rations to worry about.

Another nice touch is if game throws surprises from time to time in order to break your "camping routine", in above mentioned games that happened when you have to heal your soldiers.

 

[hiver]

What they should do is make it better. Not remove it.

First thing i would like to see is removing that "oh the item is always fine and just gives warnings waaaay before it finally reaches "damaged" status" - crap feature.

like this:
DURABILITY - a feature.

- First tier durability status effects -
you get that first, lasts the longest of the whole durability "time" an item has (whatever that is), -
Range: maybe first 40% of overall durability of a specific weapon.

These represent/simulate different notches and cuts a weapon may suffer in battle.

Notched blade.
2. Notched handle - for blunt weapons, slower attrition.
Blunt weapons also get "notches" or rather "chippings" only thats largely irrelevant for those types of weapons, (they can get notches over their shafts or other such grip extensions but, generally the attrition there should be slower ) - which would be first time ever that blunt weapons have some sort of advantage over swords of awesome - by the very nature instead of some arbitrary magic effect and/or shit.
3. - Something similar for ranged weapons - (google names of parts of bows and crossbows and others if you dont know already)


- Middle tier durability status effects -
These represent/simulate middle tier, more serious attrition effects like deeper cuts, slashes, gashes, splintered grips, loosening strings and fastenings and such.
Range: 40% to 70% of overall durability of a specific weapon.
Blunted blade, damaged grip, splintered... something, etc. *


- High tier status effects -
These represent/simulate greatest levels of durability damage attrition a weapon may have.
Range: 70% to 90% of overall durability of a specific weapon.
Broken grip, sheared off blade, cut strings, broken off head, - etc.*

*(any wandering weapon nut can feel free to fill the blanks and write all the proper terms for specific weapons he wants - knock yourself out)


- Completely damaged -



Additional measures:

- Critical hits or critical "misses" or defense critical failures should additionally create first tier durability status effects , or middle tier statuses, or high tier and completely damaged statuses.

- Durability loss of ordinary kind and critical durability status effects happen more regularly to noobs - players starting and low level players in general, regardless of any skill - which means payers at higher level will generally get less of itt - which everyone would expect naturally of course - and which would enhance the gameplay itself since playing the game with different character builds on repeated playthroughs would always be indirectly more diverse in this sense - and players would get a natural reward for just going through the game - where the overall experience of their character would lessen the number of First tier durability status effects and critical failure effects. Even if that plays as an addition to other gameplay features or mechanics that deal with that too.

- Then add fing CRAFTING into it in such a way that weapons that get damaged can be recrafted and improved with different materials or alloys or skills of specific NPCs, or the skill of the player (should require relevant lore knowledge to work) - which ordinary pristine items cannot be used for. As in making that notched blade became a "saw sword" or improved Notched cutlass that gives better crits, or upgraded poisoned blade or a weapon that creates specific "wounds".
- depending on what for the player used it for, enemies it got completely damaged against, number of kills, most killed enemy by numbers - and such other player specific preferences metrics the game can easily follow internally.

So, these weapons become individualized, unique personal items reflecting gameplay specifics of that specific character and that player.



All this would actually improve and strengthen crafting itself as a desirable skills to have - in addition to everything else it should be used for.

 

[Xenich]

You are right, they should simply have a mana bar, health bar, give infinite pots, and allow people to hack and slash through to easy victories, you know... because people will cheat it anyway. Tardsole on brother!

It's preferable to make-work.

One of the first solutions to the problem of too much loot I encountered in video games, was a spell that could turn loot into gold. Sooo... Instead of having to run back to town every 5 mins, you had to spend pretty much the same amount of time fiddling with your inventory and resting to regain mana. In other words, it was - and remains a popular - non-solution to a "too much of a good thing" sort of problem.

Crafting & durability in CRPGs tends to present the same type of problem, and when it gets addressed, it tends to be addressed in similarly absurd ways. And I know I'm saying "tends" here, but I can't actually think of an exception in CRPGs.

If durability is meaningful in a combat encounter, then it becomes a problem akin to Vancian magic: if you have a high frequency of combat encounters, durability ends up being a mindless chore just like resting for 8 hours every 20 mins of in-game time, in places no sane person would rest - and if it requires special resources then you're essentially forcing the player to go grind every so often.

Crafting is much the same. If it's to be meaningful and not come across like a bullet through the 4th wall, then it has to work pretty much like producing stuff in the setting works in general. Typically that means tracking down the right sort of tools and raw materials, the right kind of expertise, and then paying for all of it and waiting until it's done. So again; a Vancian magic sort of problem that ultimately boils down to make-work.

It's asking the player to spend time in the game without playing the game. Or if you prefer: tardsole'ification - in practise making the player waste time clicking pretty little GUI buttons for the sake of clicking them is no fucking different from replacing systems-based gameplay with QTE-ridden cutscenes. The end result in both cases is making the player behave like an automaton.

Obviously both durability and crafting can work really-really well with RPGs. As can Vancian magic. But not if it's Infinity Engine-like CRPGs. Those types of games have far-far too much combat for durability to not either be meaningless or really fucking annoying, and they have far-far too little narrative and much-much too tight narrative structure for crafting to be anything other than utter fucking nonsense.

- I mean, I'd love to be proven wrong (and I'm guessing that's slightly more unlikely than someone proving the existence of divinity). But I'd love it even more if they just didn't bother and spent the time and energy on the shit that's actually fun in IE-likes.

There is always a balance. Durability can be a mechanism that is not fast paced. It can be slow, and a good way to approach I think is linking it to combat tactics in its use. Granted I am talking about more control within the combat system encompassing your approaches, stances, reactions and methods of use within it. Obviously taking the existing systems (or really the MMO approach of money removal) is not focused on applying a meaningful solution with its implementation. That is why I said it had "merit", but it has to be carefully applied and balanced or it does achieve the monotonous process of menial actions to resolve it.

If durability is to truly be an intelligent mechanism in RPG development, it has to be "intelligent" AND it has to be implemented within a system that is "intelligent" itself. Honestly though, I don't see many developers taking this path as these complexities, even though they may be ingenious in their implementation and relation to developmental gameplay, they will be lost on many players, even those who consider themselves "experienced and dedicated RPG" players. What I am suggesting is not commonly present in most "Old School" RPG's, in fact, I can't think of any who really apply an in-depth mechanism as it concerns durability past basic means.

As I said, most implementations are unimaginative and if you think about it, I am talking about a design that is pretty complex in its workings and relation to the gameplay to which is only a passing feature. Durability as most implementations apply it are simplistic (you take damage, your gear takes damage by simplistic mathematical reduction). Layers of complexity to this feature will likely be far more "attention" that most developers would be willing to apply. Nonetheless, this is what RPG's need to do if they wish to be truly tactical in their development and progression, otherwise we are simply revisiting variations of "adventure" games with limited enticing elements of development. We certainly have the technology and knowledge to build more complex CRPG systems, but the question is... will we? Or will we simply cater to nostalgia with a generation of rehashed content?

 

[Xenich]

Fuuuuuck durability and fuuuuuuck inventory management while we're at it.

Piranha Bytes for life yo!

The question is not getting rid of them, but making them meaningful in the same manner that attribute selection, gear selection, tactical approach, etc... are.

Do that, and durability becomes another tactical means of play just as a very well balanced game with inventory management produces consistent evaluations of necessity.

 

[crawlkill]

It's preferable to make-work.

Crafting is much the same. If it's to be meaningful and not come across like a bullet through the 4th wall, then it has to work pretty much like producing stuff in the setting works in general. Typically that means tracking down the right sort of tools and raw materials, the right kind of expertise, and then paying for all of it and waiting until it's done. So again; a Vancian magic sort of problem that ultimately boils down to make-work.

It's asking the player to spend time in the game without playing the game. Or if you prefer: tardsole'ification - in practise making the player waste time clicking pretty little GUI buttons for the sake of clicking them is no fucking different from replacing systems-based gameplay with QTE-ridden cutscenes. The end result in both cases is making the player behave like an automaton.

Exactly what I'm talking about here. I call it boredom simulator gameplay: Requiring or encouraging the player to do things that aren't actually "the game," just stuck-on mechanics to add to the tedium. Real life is tedious, yes; games should not be. Tedium is only challenging to our patience, and patience is not a virtue in a digital reality where that tedium can instead just be abridged out of the game. Suffering through boring, unnecessary non-gameplay elements doesn't make you a better person. It doesn't educate you, doesn't test your intelligence or your reflexes, doesn't branch into exciting decisions and change the world around you. It's the equivalent of steampunk's problem with gears: Instead of making a product that's actually complex, a product is made, then unnecessary bits are welded onto it to give it the appearance of having lots of moving parts.

Again, it's not a huge deal (except when it's done badly, then it kind of can be; I'm sure it won't be too annoying in PE). It's just a question of why any mental effort's put towards the glued-on gears instead of the actual clockwork.

 

[hiver]

I asked you a couple of questions newfag. And you being so fully literate... have no answer? No words to spare for us unlucky and disadvantaged ones ?

or is it because you will just spinning in that limited little brain of yours, repeating the same thing that makes you feel good ad nauseam?

 

[crawlkill]

I asked you a couple of questions newfag. And you being so fully literate... have no answer? No words to spare for us unlucky and disadvantaged ones ?

or is it because you will just spinning in that limited little brain of yours, repeating the same thing that makes you feel good ad nauseam?

you are incoherent and silly and I didn't see any point in responding to you~

and now you're talking like a btard. think unlucky and disadvantaged about sums it up.

 

[hiver]

oh look, it is as i thought. again.

 

[Cosmic Misogynerd]

 

[Monty]

I call it boredom simulator gameplay: Requiring or encouraging the player to do things that aren't actually "the game," just stuck-on mechanics to add to the tedium. Real life is tedious, yes; games should not be. Tedium is only challenging to our patience, and patience is not a virtue in a digital reality where that tedium can instead just be abridged out of the game. Suffering through boring, unnecessary non-gameplay elements doesn't make you a better person. It doesn't educate you, doesn't test your intelligence or your reflexes, doesn't branch into exciting decisions and change the world around you.

Then you could apply your 'theory' to any of the skills and mechanics in an RPG.

Lock picking? "Fuck that shit, why have skills checks I'd just savescum around anyway. Just give me that loot."

Choosing which spells to memorise? "Why should I want to waste time on boring decisions like this. Games should not be tedious. If I choose wrong for a battle I'd just reload and rest-spam anyway."

Resting and Healing? "Lame. What does it add to the game? Does messing around with healing spells make me a better person or test my reflexes? Just give me a bar that rejuvenates automatically, and let me get on with roflstomping some monsters."

etc.

And certain games are, in fact, aimed at gamers who dislike these "stuck-on mechanics" as you term them. Then we get MMO-like gameplay with an awesome button. Some gamers prefer more complex gameplay and devs have to choose which audience to cater to. PE seems to be aiming for more mechanics rather than less, which I'm happy with, although I understand if you're not.

I'm not desperate to have a durability mechanic, and I agree that if done badly it could be boring. But the same could apply to any other mechanic if implemented badly. I quite enjoy situations where I get stuck in a difficult dungeon, for example, start getting injured and running out of spells without anywhere to rest, and end up desperate to survive/escape with a bruised and battered party. Maybe having weapons that get damaged and break could add to this atmosphere. Perhaps I would find a place to rest for just one night and would have to choose between sacrificing some rest for a character and spending time trying to repair our best sword.

So before defining what is 'the game' and which is 'stuck on mechanics' it's worth bearing in mind that this opinion will differ from person to person. You're lucky, the masses out there seem to agree with you and we've seen most games cater to that taste. But a few of us do actually enjoy more complex gameplay and kickstarter-funded self proclaimed old-school games like PE are our current best hope to see more of it.

 

[St. Toxic]

It's one thing if you have a bunch of different tiers of equipment damage and various ways to counteract or avoid it, adding an additional layer of depth to combat encounters and pre-planning. What I gather from the description, however, it sounds much like the basic item wear system most often implemented in free to play mmo's, where the main goal is to simply add more strain to the player's economy in continuously forcing repairs and restocks or making the player spec in a skill that does little more than balance out the expenses without granting any additional benefits. I don't know if that's the case here, as I don't follow P:E too closely, but it's my initial reaction from reading the op. Are scrolls of town portal in?