Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #58: Crafting and Durability

[Kalin]

Good update and awesome picture of almighty God Emperor Timothy, but they really should take it a bit further and allow the players to define item degradation in the options menu, similar to the tweaking of damage and so forth in Baldur's Gate. It shouldn't be too complicated for an accomplished mathemagician to conjure, and it would improve the game immensely, as both the hand-holding faggit weaklings casual players and the obviously prestigious gentlemen could enjoy the title. Ideally, full item degradation should include degrading item performance, not to mention, weapons and armour actually breaking down completely.

 

[hiver]

Good idea for an easy setting for you wusses.

and no, main game mechanics should not be up to the player to choose and set, at least not without clear sign showing what the devs intent was for the game.

 

[Xenich]

never really understood the point of durability in single-player RPGs. wouldn't the end result be the same if they just pitched the economy down by a factor of X, where X is the amount we'd otherwise be spending on repairs? is anyone really immersed by having to click the repair button now and then? I guess that same argument applies to multiplayer games, too. but meh, not a big deal either way.

modular item upgrades do sound cool-ish. there's just always that question of "do I upgrade my weapon nowww or wait for a beeetter one?"

neutral, I guess. could be kinda boring, could be kinda fun.

The durability issue has merit, but the means of attending to it is always rather unimaginative in most games. I think that if repairing an item is going to be a part of the game, standard equipment should come with easier means to fix (sharpen a blade in camp, knock out some dents in armor, some minor stitch work on leather/cloth), but with magical equipment, there should be more to it, needing a skill to repair magic items specifically and it taking special components as well as time to complete. If a NPC does the repairs, it should be a means to which you bring the components you had to search for and then leave the item for a period of time for it to be repaired. The costs should be proportional to the rarity of the item and items of "legend" should take major undertaking of seeking the most powerfully skilled to achieve it. Repairs should also come with possible negative results for unsuccessful attempts. If for instance one is very poorly skilled with repairing a blade, there should be a possibility of chipping it, making it worse than it was, possibly even breaking it.

There is no point in having these gimmicks in an RPG if they only purpose they serve is to bleed you of money or annoy you in clicking a repair button. I understand that it is better than none at all (management of money and item durability is still another aspect of management, like inventory, etc...), but if we are to walk the path back to complex RPG's, then I think we should give it more attention than simply regurgitating gimmicks of old.

 

[Blackguard]

Crafting is almost always sucky in RPGs. This was probably the worst stretch goal.

PE crafting system sounds especially horrible. Item degradation and MMO style crafting complete with buff foods and potions for your raid team...

 

[KickAss]

I can think of a few fun scenarios with this, for example - your dudes are at the end of a long dungeon and you're forced to use rusty swords you've got off a skeleton because you're saving the almost damaged weapons for the dungeon boss.. But if a repair shop is always nearby, then it's just a money sink..

 

[crawlkill]

The durability issue has merit, but the means of attending to it is always rather unimaginative in most games. I think that if repairing an item is going to be a part of the game, standard equipment should come with easier means to fix (sharpen a blade in camp, knock out some dents in armor, some minor stitch work on leather/cloth), but with magical equipment, there should be more to it, needing a skill to repair magic items specifically and it taking special components as well as time to complete. If a NPC does the repairs, it should be a means to which you bring the components you had to search for and then leave the item for a period of time for it to be repaired. The costs should be proportional to the rarity of the item and items of "legend" should take major undertaking of seeking the most powerfully skilled to achieve it. Repairs should also come with possible negative results for unsuccessful attempts. If for instance one is very poorly skilled with repairing a blade, there should be a possibility of chipping it, making it worse than it was, possibly even breaking it.

yeahbutlike. if those mechanics were in place, you'd just have a character whose Repair Magicable Item skill you maxed out at every level. or you'd savescum your repairs (don't lie, you totally would, and I would if you wouldn't). having to take time for repairs amounts to "having to hold onto outdated items or rest a bunch before you get your real equipment back." if repairing a useful item is a "great undertaking," that'll just dissuade you from using it.

this all ties back into the myth of the hardcore--the idea that more numbers = more decisions that are interesting. the systems you imply don't sound like they'd involve any meaningful decisionmaking, just more downtime (either going and farming up your miraculous repair materials or wandering to outdated parts of the world to buy the components or spamming rest for a week so that the repairjob finishes).

upkeep is pretty much always lame. I can't think of a single game it improved, or even a single game in which it significantly affected my play, past the "gotta town portal to repair guys" of Diablo and the "shit gotta waste 12 minutes of the raid's life while I go repair" of MMOs. even New Vegas' item degradation was just...trivial, in spite of at least having something to do with the scavenging/used future theme of the game. I think the most item damage has ever affected a single-played game for me was at the very beginning of BG1, where I'd go "why the fuck is my dude just swinging his hand."

 

[Delterius]

Hmmm. What if item durabilities and crafting were but 2 ways in which you've got to prepare and restock when in cities? If there are more interesting things like the weapon enhancements, such as buying resources and magical paraphernalia, then durabilities, while still the dull step cousing of the group, could be a part of a 'gold management' side game.

 

[Excidium]

So how do you gather materials? Apart from breaking down items and buying at store, of course. I'm talking about collecting stuff in the game world.

 

[Irenaeus]

Maybe stuff is lying around and you get down and pick them.

 

[Scruffy]

So how do you gather materials? Apart from breaking down items and buying at store, of course. I'm talking about collecting stuff in the game world.

you'll obviously need a pickaxe or an axe to gather wood, minerals and so on. and those tools will deteriorate with use FORCING YOU TO REPAIR THEM TO CONTINUE USING THEM TO GET MORE MATERIALS INFINITE FUN!!!!!!111!!

 

[Excidium]

Maybe stuff is lying around and you get down and pick them.

I obviously thought of that but running around clicking on plants and chickens doesn't have any mechanical consequence other than wasting your time so I don't think it's something Sawyer would support. Granted he seems to enjoy Skyrim well enough.

So how do you gather materials? Apart from breaking down items and buying at store, of course. I'm talking about collecting stuff in the game world.

you'll obviously need a pickaxe or an axe to gather wood, minerals and so on. and those tools will deteriorate with use FORCING YOU TO REPAIR THEM TO CONTINUE USING THEM TO GET MORE MATERIALS INFINITE FUN!!!!!!111!!

Now that I can see happening...

 

[Xenich]

The durability issue has merit, but the means of attending to it is always rather unimaginative in most games. I think that if repairing an item is going to be a part of the game, standard equipment should come with easier means to fix (sharpen a blade in camp, knock out some dents in armor, some minor stitch work on leather/cloth), but with magical equipment, there should be more to it, needing a skill to repair magic items specifically and it taking special components as well as time to complete. If a NPC does the repairs, it should be a means to which you bring the components you had to search for and then leave the item for a period of time for it to be repaired. The costs should be proportional to the rarity of the item and items of "legend" should take major undertaking of seeking the most powerfully skilled to achieve it. Repairs should also come with possible negative results for unsuccessful attempts. If for instance one is very poorly skilled with repairing a blade, there should be a possibility of chipping it, making it worse than it was, possibly even breaking it.

yeahbutlike. if those mechanics were in place, you'd just have a character whose Repair Magicable Item skill you maxed out at every level. or you'd savescum your repairs (don't lie, you totally would, and I would if you wouldn't). having to take time for repairs amounts to "having to hold onto outdated items or rest a bunch before you get your real equipment back." if repairing a useful item is a "great undertaking," that'll just dissuade you from using it.

this all ties back into the myth of the hardcore--the idea that more numbers = more decisions that are interesting. the systems you imply don't sound like they'd involve any meaningful decisionmaking, just more downtime (either going and farming up your miraculous repair materials or wandering to outdated parts of the world to buy the components or spamming rest for a week so that the repairjob finishes).

upkeep is pretty much always lame. I can't think of a single game it improved, or even a single game in which it significantly affected my play, past the "gotta town portal to repair guys" of Diablo and the "shit gotta waste 12 minutes of the raid's life while I go repair" of MMOs. even New Vegas' item degradation was just...trivial, in spite of at least having something to do with the scavenging/used future theme of the game. I think the most item damage has ever affected a single-played game for me was at the very beginning of BG1, where I'd go "why the fuck is my dude just swinging his hand."

You are right, they should simply have a mana bar, health bar, give infinite pots, and allow people to hack and slash through to easy victories, you know... because people will cheat it anyway. Tardsole on brother!

 

[Cosmic Misogynerd]

Fuck the crafting haters.

 

[Misconnected]

You are right, they should simply have a mana bar, health bar, give infinite pots, and allow people to hack and slash through to easy victories, you know... because people will cheat it anyway. Tardsole on brother!

It's preferable to make-work.

One of the first solutions to the problem of too much loot I encountered in video games, was a spell that could turn loot into gold. Sooo... Instead of having to run back to town every 5 mins, you had to spend pretty much the same amount of time fiddling with your inventory and resting to regain mana. In other words, it was - and remains a popular - non-solution to a "too much of a good thing" sort of problem.

Crafting & durability in CRPGs tends to present the same type of problem, and when it gets addressed, it tends to be addressed in similarly absurd ways. And I know I'm saying "tends" here, but I can't actually think of an exception in CRPGs.

If durability is meaningful in a combat encounter, then it becomes a problem akin to Vancian magic: if you have a high frequency of combat encounters, durability ends up being a mindless chore just like resting for 8 hours every 20 mins of in-game time, in places no sane person would rest - and if it requires special resources then you're essentially forcing the player to go grind every so often.

Crafting is much the same. If it's to be meaningful and not come across like a bullet through the 4th wall, then it has to work pretty much like producing stuff in the setting works in general. Typically that means tracking down the right sort of tools and raw materials, the right kind of expertise, and then paying for all of it and waiting until it's done. So again; a Vancian magic sort of problem that ultimately boils down to make-work.

It's asking the player to spend time in the game without playing the game. Or if you prefer: tardsole'ification - in practise making the player waste time clicking pretty little GUI buttons for the sake of clicking them is no fucking different from replacing systems-based gameplay with QTE-ridden cutscenes. The end result in both cases is making the player behave like an automaton.

Obviously both durability and crafting can work really-really well with RPGs. As can Vancian magic. But not if it's Infinity Engine-like CRPGs. Those types of games have far-far too much combat for durability to not either be meaningless or really fucking annoying, and they have far-far too little narrative and much-much too tight narrative structure for crafting to be anything other than utter fucking nonsense.

- I mean, I'd love to be proven wrong (and I'm guessing that's slightly more unlikely than someone proving the existence of divinity). But I'd love it even more if they just didn't bother and spent the time and energy on the shit that's actually fun in IE-likes.

 

[Infinitron]

So much conjecture.

 

[Irenaeus]

So much conjecture.

It's what we are here for.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Good update. Seems alright feature to me.
anyway,

Items have lots of units of durability,

ok crybabies? lots? is that enough?

What's the point then?

Having item durability just introduces the fun killing best/decent weapon swapping. As far as i can see this feature just adds a new skill/interaction to the game. It's not hardcore, it's pointless more often then not. Especially in an infinity-like game. It's not like it supposed to be hardcore.

I don't disagree with you in this particular case. It's hard for me to imagine it not being annoying make-work/fetch-quest shit in a combat-centric RTwP game. But in principle is can add both strategic depth and verisimilitude - from having to avoid or postpone combat encounters due to resource shortages or time constraints, to targeting specific bits of kit during a combat encounter to overcome otherwise impossible odds. It's one of those things that doesn't really work with the kind of abundance of combat encounters common in video games. And sadly I'm not really seeing it work in survival horror games either, as they too are increasingly about killing endless hordes of trash.

Sure it can be fun and add to tactical strategy and resource management. But, yeah, i don't think there is a place for that in a real time dungeon crawl.

 

[Infinitron]

Crossposting from other thread:

You start a dungeon with weapons at maximum duration and party members with maximum health.

As you progress, both degrade. Party members lose health, weapons lose durability. Your situation becomes more dangerous. Tradeoffs need to be made. Should you avoid using your best weapon, so it remains at full durability for the final boss of the dungeon? These are interesting challenges.

It's clear that Project Eternity is going to be a heavily dungeon-centric game, and that needs to be taken into account when assessing its design. Many aspects of PE's design rely on the existence of a "strategic context"/resource degradation of a long dungeon crawl. Certainly, durability is less useful in a game where you're constantly wandering around in cities, like BG2.

 

[DalekFlay]

Fuuuuuck durability and fuuuuuuck inventory management while we're at it.

Piranha Bytes for life yo!

 

[hiver]

As you progress, both degrade. Party members lose health, weapons lose durability. Your situation becomes more dangerous. Tradeoffs need to be made. Should you avoid using your best weapon, so it remains at full durability for the final boss of the dungeon?

Are you blind?

Good update. Seems alright feature to me.
anyway,

Items have lots of units of durability,

ok crybabies? lots? is that enough?

What's the point then?

The usual counter logic.

The point should be to increase the gameplay.

The effective point is that it will probably simulate weapon degradation over a reasonable amount of time. Just like in real world, weapons degrade, but you really have to be a dumbass and totally incompetent to totally ruin it or to be unable to find someone to fix them, or bring them up to shape if necessary.

Of course mr Sawyer isnt a fan of "realism" - as ive heard. And he talked about this feature as a part of overall monkey sinks in the game.
And he seems to be having trouble with satisfying the players about that too.

As our Sea could inform him, thats a bigger problem of overall game economy and its actual effects in the gameworld.
One that badly needs some general attitude changes. To say the least. Not just swapping items from the dungeons to the stores and back, and inventing "streamline" mechanic shortcuts.

This feature can be only a small part of it, so i dont see how its role as a monkey sink is all that relevant. Anyway.

 

[Severian Silk]

Weapon degradation was good in JA2. But the game had a simple, spreadsheet-like way of managing characters' tasks, as well as a sector inventory to use as a cache for stored loot.

 

[deuxhero]

Aside from JA2, where it wound up more "maintenance" than "repair", I've never enjoyed "repair" mechanics in an RPG (and I question JA2 as RPG). SS2 worked OKish because it was a survival horror game AND you were on lowest bidder: the spaceship, so crap durability was expected (even then though, you were duping repair items enmass mid-late game)

 

[thesheeep]

The only game that I played where weapons degradation made sense was System Shock 2 on impossible and worked because it made me think, when you have only one repair tool and a pistol with 2 of durability, you are very aware that weapon durability can fuck you if you don't pay attention. If repair is cheap and easy or the weapon take forever to be damaged then weapon durability is better to be removed because it is pointless.

Then again, item degradation in SS2 was utterly broken, as it makes no sense at all that any weapon would break that fast. Imagine a pistol breaking after firing 20 (maximum!) shots. Wtf?
You are in a spaceship than can endure being raped by a giant piece of space meat and thrown into an AI-made reality, but weapons break by using them as intended? Oookaaay....
I agree that this increased the tension, but really, I would not put it as a good example.

I think Fallout NV (maybe also 3, can't remember) was a nice example of good item degradation. The degradation is well made and not too fast or slow, IMO (playing on hardcore). But repairing is far too easy, as pretty much independant from the actual skill.

 

[Scruffy]

monkey sinks

sounds dangerous

 

[Indranys]

Hmm, this is my points to make item degradation and crafting more interesting in my book:
>Strong monsters like Ogres or Dragons may break equipped weapons, shields, and armors (in PE case they'll be in damaged status) with only one or two charged strike(s), or at least damage them more than small mobs bites and claws. So the size and strength of combatants do matter to determine the equipments' degradation rate.
>Different materials have their own unique/special properties. For example those rubystones are great against fires, but ice may break them/make them damaged in PE.
That shield which is made of Mirror Ores will deflect or even reflect (a portion of) physical and/or magical damage to the attacker(s), but it is easily break after a few uses, and a lot harder/more expensive to repair than the common ones. Steel equipments are common, have no special properties except if enchanted, the most durable of all known materials so it won't degrade as fast as the others, but the stat is just so-so etc.
>All more exotic materials should need special means to repair, and also more expensive. For players who hate that shit, just stick to your masterwork steel mails. Those should be sufficient to beat the game IMO. If in normal difficulty top tier equipments (aka uber heavenly mythril sword of destruction) are needed to beat the endgame mobs and boss, I think the game balance isn't right for my taste.
>Repair skill isn't only useful in repairing equipments, but also one of possible choices as skillchecks to solve quests, additional dialogues trigger etc.

That's all I can think of for the time being.