Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #58: Crafting and Durability

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Infinitron, instead of that gay little Q&A session you've organized, can't you just have Sawyer and VD debate proper rpg design for an hour or so?

 

[Infinitron]

I wouldn't (and never did) ask them to add some skills for the sake of diversity. But they announced a skill with a system behind it and quickly removed the skill because people complained about it. This seems a bit silly, don't you think? Of course, it's their right to do what they think is best, but their reasons seem to be a bit weak. That's all.

Their reasons for removing it, or their reasons for wanting to add it in the first place?

We don't actually know why Josh Sawyer thought that the Crafting/Durability thing was a weak idea. We only know why he decided to give it a try before the public reaction convinced him to trust his earlier instincts.

Infinitron, instead of that gay little Q&A session you've organized, can't you just have Sawyer and VD debate proper rpg design for an hour or so?

Ask Zed

 

[Roguey]

I didn't read all the updates or forum post, so I probably missed a lot, but what does DnD have to do with anything? As for how PE works, it can work any damn way Sawyer wants, no?

Project Eternity is an Infinity Engine successor, so the expectation is that it'll play like an IE game i.e. similar to D&D. None of the IE games made you choose between being good at combat or non-combat activities; even in Torment intelligence was important for wizards and wisdom increased the amount of experience you'd gain, allowing you to level-up faster.

Anyway, Sawyer's argument was that Crafting is:

- a bitch to balance
- used rarely
- hard to connect to something used frequently (if I have to guess, durability was their attempt to introduce a mechanic that would make Crafting a frequently used skill, which was the wrong way to go about it)

So, I commented on the first point, giving a quick example. Regardless of what combat skills do in PE, my point is that you can split the linear investment in combat worthiness, by allowing you to invest in better gear, basically. Then the equation becomes 0.8xcombat skill =0.2xcrafting skill = 1.0xcombat skill. Why do it? Because it takes nothing from people who prefer to focus on combat but it provides an alternative for people who want one, who want to define their characters differently.

Chris Avellone's Arcanum LP is proof that, when given a choice between being good at combat or non-combat activities, many players will put everything into the non-combat skill then try to tackle the combat content anyway. And this isn't just any random RPG newb making this error, it's legendary over-a-decade-in-the-industry veteran Chris Frederic Avellone.

:gasp:

It's like specializing your paladin in 2h swords only to discover that Holy Avenger is a long sword. Mere words can't express the agony one feels at this very moment. Life wasted.

That situation wouldn't happen without that kind of excessively narrow specialization, which is partly why Eternity's weapon specialization talents will be thematically grouped.

How the fuck is that a problem? It can easily apply to all non-combat skills, so what's the solution? Cut all non-combat skills? Tie them all to combat (waste not)? Remove all non-combat skills from NPCs? Study a walkthrough before you attempt to play an RPG?

Not all. With your healing skill example, everyone in the party can take that skill and receive the benefit (more healing). Everyone can take stealth, and as a result, either be able to sneak past certain fights or get everyone into more advantageous positions. With crafting, one person takes it and the entire party benefits; if everyone takes it you're penalizing yourself through all those wasted points.

Isn't discovering something awesome? Isn't playing Wiz 8 on your own and discovering what works and what doesn't better than studying guides and asking advice on forums to create a '110% party'?

Ideally, most viable-sounding character or party concepts would work well enough at what they're trying to accomplish.

You're just repeating what Sawyer said. As I said in the previous post, the solution to "you only need a single character with X ability" is to have more non-combat abilities. Play old Avernum games if you're struggling with this concept.

That's exacerbating the problem he's trying to solve; he wants to give people a reason to have multiple party members take the same skill instead of thinking "okay this is my healer, this is my sneaker, this is my crafter."

 

[Excidium]

Last, I don't think that having a skill that only one party member will need is a problem and if it is, it has a simple solution: more 'single character' skills. Then one party member will handle crafting, another will handle healing, another will specialize in lore or arcane or alchemy or or spellcraft or sleigh of hand, etc.

If you invest into crafting, and later find a companion you want to use who also has points in crafting, one of you has wasted points.

:gasp:

It's like specializing your paladin in 2h swords only to discover that Holy Avenger is a long sword. Mere words can't express the agony one feels at this very moment. Life wasted.

That is a problem and not something one should just accept.

How the fuck is that a problem? It can easily apply to all non-combat skills, so what's the solution? Cut all non-combat skills? Tie them all to combat (waste not)? Remove all non-combat skills from NPCs? Study a walkthrough before you attempt to play an RPG?

Just have NPCs start with all exp unspent, problem solved.

 

[tuluse]

Vault Dweller, just to catch you up, it's been announced that combat skills and non-combat skills will have separate pools.

Also, crafting sounds like it's still going to be skill based, there's just not going to be a crafting skill. So, I would expect it to work like New Vegas.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Infinitron, instead of that gay little Q&A session you've organized, can't you just have Sawyer and VD debate proper rpg design for an hour or so?

Thunderdome style?

 

[Excidium]

The man who makes a system based on SPECIAL vs the man who makes a system based on D&D, which is more insane and why

 

[almondblight]

So, I commented on the first point, giving a quick example. Regardless of what combat skills do in PE, my point is that you can split the linear investment in combat worthiness, by allowing you to invest in better gear, basically. Then the equation becomes 0.8xcombat skill =0.2xcrafting skill = 1.0xcombat skill. Why do it? Because it takes nothing from people who prefer to focus on combat but it provides an alternative for people who want one, who want to define their characters differently.

The problem is it usually sucks when it becomes a question of doing +5 damage through an extra point in crafting or +5 damage through an extra point is swords. Crafting could be done well, but if it's just about boosting item stats it's boring and uncesserarry.

The same is true about durability. It can be used well, but when you just throw it into the game without having a clear idea of what it's supposed to accomplish and making sure that it accomplishes that, it's just a pointless annoyance. The mechanics in the update don't seem to add anything to the game, so they may as well remove them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, I commented on the first point, giving a quick example. Regardless of what combat skills do in PE, my point is that you can split the linear investment in combat worthiness, by allowing you to invest in better gear, basically. Then the equation becomes 0.8xcombat skill =0.2xcrafting skill = 1.0xcombat skill. Why do it? Because it takes nothing from people who prefer to focus on combat but it provides an alternative for people who want one, who want to define their characters differently.

The problem is it usually sucks when it becomes a question of doing +5 damage through an extra point in crafting or +5 damage through an extra point is swords.

Obviously, it doesn't have to be this way, so why mention it?

 

[almondblight]

Obviously, it doesn't have to be this way, so why mention it?

Because it's usually this way and the update suggests that P:E crafting will be like this as well. It'd difficult to make crafting something that actually adds something to the game and isn't merely superfluous; in fact, I can't think of any game off the top of my head that does crafting well.

 

[Rake]

Obviously, it doesn't have to be this way, so why mention it?

Because it's usually this way and the update suggests that P:E crafting will be like this as well. It'd difficult to make crafting something that actually adds something to the game and isn't merely superfluous; in fact, I can't think of any game off the top of my head that does crafting well.

Witcher

 

[HiddenX]

I like crafting/alchemy/weapon & gear enhancement in Geneforge, Jagged Alliance 2, Wizardry 8, Gothic, Evil Islands and Might & Magic 6.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

It's like specializing your paladin in 2h swords only to discover that Holy Avenger is a long sword. Mere words can't express the agony one feels at this very moment. Life wasted.

That's horrible. Hopefully we can mod the game and make Holy Avenger a two-hander or else Obsidian can go fuck themselves.

 

[abnaxus]

Actually, didn't Obsidian make Holy Avenger a longsword in NWN2?

But it probably already was in NWN.

 

[valcik]

crawlkill
[..] Going through a dungeon with busted up armor, trying to prevent it from becoming even more busted, is a challenge.

Agreed, I've enjoyed it in Eschalon: Book II. Entering the dwarven mines without a decent repair skill was a suicide. Also, value of damaged items was increased greatly by repairing them on my own before selling.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Chris Avellone's Arcanum LP is proof that, when given a choice between being good at combat or non-combat activities, many players will put everything into the non-combat skill then try to tackle the combat content anyway. And this isn't just any random RPG newb making this error, it's legendary over-a-decade-in-the-industry veteran Chris Frederic Avellone.

And again with the retarded "let's all cater to LCD, it's the bestest way". It won't make it true or smart if you just keep repeating.

That situation wouldn't happen without that kind of excessively narrow specialization, which is partly why Eternity's weapon specialization talents will be thematically grouped.

But but wut happens if I find a companionz who has the same group as one of my characters???? Uninstall gaem shit suckz. I think instead everybody should have all the skills at the same level all the time so you don't feel like you lost anything. Hey, that guy has exactly the same skills as me, cool, another token in my army. This is true RPG.

 

[Xenich]

You are right, they should simply have a mana bar, health bar, give infinite pots, and allow people to hack and slash through to easy victories, you know... because people will cheat it anyway. Tardsole on brother!

Because any of this shit would totally be a real challenge, right? Clickin on dat repair button? Puttin points into dat repair skill? It's filler, chummer. Padding.

Not the system I was mentioning. Notice how I explained that most durability systems lack imagination and I then explained how that for them to be worthwhile, they should contain layers of complexity rather than just clicking on a repair button?

 

[Roguey]

And again with the retarded "let's all cater to LCD, it's the bestest way". It won't make it true or smart if you just keep repeating.

Is Chris Avellone the lowest common denominator?

When your fellow veteran game designers at your own company struggle to wrap their heads around a certain demand, it's time to throw it out. Unless your company is small and you can thrive just fine with narrowing your audience satisfaction to four or five digit numbers. inXile can possibly be that small company.

But but wut happens if I find a companionz who has the same group as one of my characters???? Uninstall gaem shit suckz. I think instead everybody should have all the skills at the same level all the time so you don't feel like you lost anything. Hey, that guy has exactly the same skills as me, cool, another token in my army. This is true RPG.

When weapon feats are organized into groups it's fine to have overlap. In Baldur's Gate, Large Swords covered long swords, two-handed swords, and bastard swords. You get three people with that proficiency and you can give them one of each.