Rage... rising...

[Badgermaster]

I wonder what would happen if we put Todd and Molyneux in the same room for an hour?

They might breed, and then their unholy spawn would devour existence itself.

 

[Xor]

Todd Howard, Peter Molyneux, and Chris Taylor walk into a bar...

 

[racofer]

followed by Ash Williams with a crowbar...

 

[Binary]

Todd Howard, Peter Molyneux, and Chris Taylor walk into a bar...

...and Cleve the bartender asks...

 

[Desmodus Rotundus]

---what's the difference between your cars and a hedgehog
hedgehog has pricks outside...

 

[Xi]

You know, I cannot say that Todd Howard is a complete idiot, quite the opposite. He's a pretty smart guy and I think the interview portrayed this. Now with that said, it's not that he's a terrible designer, it's just that he chases the ever elusive dollar in his design of games. He's fallen prey to the new, and much hyped, broad appeal concept that publishers are so interested in. It's not that he couldn't make an absolutely fantastic game, it's that he tries to make a game that will sell well, and this is an entirely different concept to creating a fantastic game.

This is, of course, the next-generation of game design. Creating video games for the majority and not for niche, intellectual types who despise shallow gimmicks, weak game-play mechanics, and the utter lack of progression in RPG genre design. Not to mention the abandonment of almost everything for the sake of progressing graphics, which, I think, provides even more proof of the complete change in direction of game design.

Looking back to older games, when the market for gaming was too new to understand consumer likes/dislikes, we saw a lot more innovation. Certainly we started seeing graphical innovation too, but I think the biggest innovations were in the form of deep RPG mechanics. Not to mention the fact that most stories hadn't been done to death yet, or at least not in video gaming. In the beginning we saw innovation and business actually working together initially. This created many memorable moments and the designers knew no bounds.

It's pretty much like comparing a good business model to a fantastic piece of art. The new wave of gaming, the one that Todd Howard designs for, ascribes to the corporate business model versus creating art for the sake of expression, beauty, and enlightenment. In terms of business, I think he does rather well, and seems to understand what his "new age gamers" are looking for in "the games they want to play." I'm pretty sure that if he had set out to create fantastic art, with only that goal in mind, the Codex would be very happy with what he had created, and there would be much joy. But it is the ever elusive scheme of investors, money, and business that create games that appeal to your most average of idiots because this is what creates the most potential for return.

No, the intellectuals who favor artistic expression, beauty, and depth will never see new forms of art in this way. It's just business and business doesn't care about creativity if it offers no return. Thus Todd Howard does not either because he is an executive designer who's goal is to appease the business model, not art for the sake of expression and nothing else.

This may even mimic every other history where innovation is everywhere at first, and then slumps into a systematic search of functionality instead of expression.

 

[4too]

And, The *Message* Is ...

And, The *Message* Is ...



Media, media never changes.




4too

 

[Brother None]

Shortest 4too post ever.

You know, I cannot say that Todd Howard is a complete idiot, quite the opposite. He's a pretty smart guy and I think the interview portrayed this. Now with that said, it's not that he's a terrible designer, it's just that he chases the ever elusive dollar in his design of games. He's fallen prey to the new, and much hyped, broad appeal concept that publishers are so interested in. It's not that he couldn't make an absolutely fantastic game, it's that he tries to make a game that will sell well, and this is an entirely different concept to creating a fantastic game.

A revolutionary concept, perhaps, but maybe those games for the majority also happen to be the games Todd Howard likes to play? Not because he's dumb, but because he thinks games should be visceral, fun experiences. And not because of the dollar, tho' that helps, but because that is simply what he enjoys doing?

There's no reason to automatically assume "dollar" is the only motivation there. It's not like all game designers of any intelligence automatically approach games as a niche, artistic segment.

 

[MetalCraze]

so Todd enjoys linear games with incredibly retarded AI, "get-quest-fast-travel-reach-marker" all-the-same tasks, copy-pasta dungeons, ugly characters, quest-compass and fast travel for morons and a shitty inventory interface?
if yes then that doesn't actually speak of him as of intelligent guy.

 

[Xi]

A revolutionary concept, perhaps, but maybe those games for the majority also happen to be the games Todd Howard likes to play? Not because he's dumb, but because he thinks games should be visceral, fun experiences. And not because of the dollar, tho' that helps, but because that is simply what he enjoys doing?

True, but I'm not talking about most of the designers, I'm talking about the head designer who's main goal, at least on some level, is to ensure that the product is both marketable and has broad appeal. Maybe he does like those things, or maybe they designed the games in those ways and he just talked up those features. Each of the individual designers work within the design goals and do the best that they can within there fenced areas.(Or that's how I perceive it anyway) They aren't exactly getting free reign to design as they please. Todd determines how the game will form so that it has the most appeal. He used a lot of market savvy talk in that interview for example, he knows who he's making the game for, and to hell with the old fans if they don't adapt.

Still I think if he was aiming for a specific market, or was designing in the name of art, he would no doubt come up with something far more grand. Well, at least the niche markets would think so even if sales were lacking.


edit:

There's no reason to automatically assume "dollar" is the only motivation there. It's not like all game designers of any intelligence automatically approach games as a niche, artistic segment.

Why wouldn't they? And I think this even proves my point to a degree. Some designers of high intellect aim to satisfy business goals and the largest markets. They work as artistically as they can within this, but obviously it could have been something more.

Or maybe it's just a job, and he doesn't know better? I think he's been quoted as liking sports games the most so. /shrug

 

[Binary]

so Todd enjoys linear games with incredibly retarded AI, "get-quest-fast-travel-reach-marker" all-the-same tasks, copy-pasta dungeons, ugly characters, quest-compass and fast travel for morons and a shitty inventory interface?
if yes then that doesn't actually speak of him as of intelligent guy.

I think the keyword there is "enjoys". He doesn't necessarily enjoy them, but he probably knows that kind of game might appeal more to the masses, and is more profitable.

 

[Mareus]

You know, I cannot say that Todd Howard is a complete idiot, quite the opposite. He's a pretty smart guy and I think the interview portrayed this. Now with that said, it's not that he's a terrible designer, it's just that he chases the ever elusive dollar in his design of games. He's fallen prey to the new, and much hyped, broad appeal concept that publishers are so interested in. It's not that he couldn't make an absolutely fantastic game, it's that he tries to make a game that will sell well, and this is an entirely different concept to creating a fantastic game.

And that is why he is a fucking moron!

 

[Lingwe]

And now to give more credit where no credit is due:

http://insider.ign.com/articles/882/882695p1.html

Howard has an impressive track record of pushing gaming into territory that few other designers would dare to go. Where most designers tend to think in terms of simplicity and economy, Howard's games have been defined by a staggering sense of scale and immersion that few others can match.

 

[Claw]

It's not that he couldn't make an absolutely fantastic game, it's that he tries to make a game that will sell well, and this is an entirely different concept to creating a fantastic game.

All the more reason why he deseves a slow, painful death.

A revolutionary concept, perhaps, but maybe those games for the majority also happen to be the games Todd Howard likes to play? Not because he's dumb, but because he thinks games should be visceral, fun experiences.

Why doesn't he make such games, then? Morrowind and Oblivion are anything but visceral.

Also, what's the supposed meaning of "fun" in your statement? Because... I generally like my games to be fun experiences. Maybe MMORPG players don't, but shouldn't "fun experience" be a given for a game?

 

[Schauman]

And now to give more credit where no credit is due:

http://insider.ign.com/articles/882/882695p1.html

Howard has an impressive track record of pushing gaming into territory that few other designers would dare to go. Where most designers tend to think in terms of simplicity and economy, Howard's games have been defined by a staggering sense of scale and immersion that few others can match.

The ES: Arena credit made me chuckle, I belive the only thing he had to do with the game was to test the CD version. Lovely bitchslap on Lakshman, Peterson, Lefay and specially Chris Weaver there.

 

[Naked Ninja]

A revolutionary concept, perhaps, but maybe those games for the majority also happen to be the games Todd Howard likes to play? Not because he's dumb, but because he thinks games should be visceral, fun experiences. And not because of the dollar, tho' that helps, but because that is simply what he enjoys doing?

There's no reason to automatically assume "dollar" is the only motivation there. It's not like all game designers of any intelligence automatically approach games as a niche, artistic segment.

Egad. The reasonableness of this statement, on the Codex, leaves me flabbergasted. Bravo good sir.

 

[MetalCraze]

so Todd enjoys linear games with incredibly retarded AI, "get-quest-fast-travel-reach-marker" all-the-same tasks, copy-pasta dungeons, ugly characters, quest-compass and fast travel for morons and a shitty inventory interface?
if yes then that doesn't actually speak of him as of intelligent guy.

I think the keyword there is "enjoys". He doesn't necessarily enjoy them, but he probably knows that kind of game might appeal more to the masses, and o be more profitable.

well BN basically asked "maybe Todd likes to play these games and can't be called dumb because he thinks games should be fun?"
it's like much more complex games aren't fun but just a bunch of mindfucks
also given how retarded most of the ideas for Fallout 3 are and how Todd loves them... hmm. no he isn't dumb. cretin - yes. but he really works for big buck there. I doubt that one of the leaders of Beth seriously likes shit like healing toilets and anti-nuclear phone booths. but hey - Beth forums are full of retards who think that craters on Moon are the same thing as megaton crater - so what do you know

 

[Xi]

Fuck, I just wrote a really long response about my point and my PC crashed before I could post it. FUCK! Lol man I don't know if I have the energy to redo that again. /sigh

 

[Xor]

I was working on a really long response last night, but then I realized I had to get up in four hours and go to work, so I abandoned it.

 

[Imbecile]

I was working on a really, really long response, but then...ah fuck it.

 

[Unradscorpion]

I was working on a short answer to that.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I am working on this here post right now.
Oops, no i don't. Already finished.
lol
Now it's finished.
Damn.

...

 

[Kaiserin]

Isn't it uh... illegal to credit people with stuff they didn't do when it comes to shit like this? That's like saying Stephen Spielberg made 'The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly' on national television and meaning it.

 

[JarlFrank]

I worked on a witty reply to all of this but then it got too long and became unwitty.

 

[mirrorshades]

I came up with a nine word reply to