Wasteland Reactivity, reactivity, reactivity! [Wasteland 2 spoilers]

[Norfleet]

The DBM are just an upjumped bandit army. Titan's Peace is at least a working peace.

Yeah, I got a kind of ugly vibe from DBM when they were apparently robbing guys as well. On the other hand, I wouldn't quite call Titan's Peace a working one. Father Enola was clearly a charlatan, and the peace in question was firmly dysfunctional: The system was dysfunctional in extreme ways, and you would witness this firsthand: The moment your guy or blows himself up, you are on your own. Not to mention wasn't going to last: The radio chatter indicated they were losing monks faster than they could get new ones.

So I shut off the nuke. That was certainly an interesting outcome. You'd think that, technically, this wouldn't have actually been a change from the status quo, since they didn't actually have a nuke before, either, and that this outcome would have still worked in DBM's favor, as they could have easily overcome the monks by straight force without any nukes backing anyone up.

But apparently it went to all to pieces somehow.

 

[Bradylama]

It all went to shit because the Mad Monks tore each other apart. The Silo wasn't just a house for Titan, it was a base that allowed the Mad Monks to project their power in the Canyon. With the base destroyed, the DBM can't do the same from tents.

 

[Shadenuat]

Didn't like disarming nuke C&C.
When I was thinking how to approach situation in the canyon, my idea was to act starting with most dangerous and biggest threats, and then proceed to lesser threats. Game tells you that crazy monk stole missile and good monks wanna it back for safety. Ofc they're not that good to begin with and kinda crazy allahu akbars, but when you weight all options - engage into infighting or deal with the nuke first - I think anyone would rushed to nuke. And there is a civilian outpost near where nuke is - one that you must go to and save too. And now there's a nuke on a way near it. I thought I'd deal with nuke and then deal with DMB&monks depending on what will happen.
My idea was fairly simple really - I thought I'd get to send disarmed nuke back. I mean, how do they know when and how I disarm it. It's not a space rocket on start, it's a missile and it was stolen.
But apparently they knew. Well, OK.
First of all, if there is no more nuke, DMB should have taken over.
But let's say raiders are too strong. Even if they are not. Your 4 men party can clean whole canyon if you wished.

It is an important artery between two parts of local world, that has merchants going through it and all that. It gets taken by bands of unwashed raiders. What is first and most logical think Rangers should do? No, say, what would have someone like Brotherhood of Steel or NCR would do?
You collect a squad, clear up the raiders and put your flag there and control the canyon from now on.
But perhaps Ranger Citadel is too far, but hey, it is such an important artery, even some random milita group from nowhere wants it. Or, how about asking Red Scorpions to take it over? You can make peace with them, they'd probably enjoy the opportunity.

Instead you get completely locked away from multiple locations. It's fair that without power status quo gets broken, but in the end, that sort of C&C is just lock-out-of-content C&C.

But I guess you just can't please everyone and make C&C for every outcome.
I still think difficult mission to clean canyon and establish your own outpost there would've been cool... these sort of activities and decisions is what I wished was in game, more of it. Not collecting cat litter.

 

[Zetor]

I agree with Shadenuat's post above (I also disarmed the nuke in silo 7, and was a bit surprised that somehow everyone immediately knew what happened), but I'm actually OK with the conclusion. The ending slides specifically say that disarming the nuke is an idealist choice made by someone who had no idea how the balance of power in the wasteland actually worked (ie. the player). Still, having one less nuke in the area is going to be the better choice in the long term, even if that shithole of a valley is going to be terrorized by raiders until the now-powerful Damonta community and the rangers have enough of their shenanigans and wipe them out.

 

[Shadenuat]

Still, having one less nuke in the area is going to be the better choice in the long term, even if that shithole of a valley is going to be terrorized by raiders until the now-powerful Damonta community and the rangers have enough of their shenanigans and wipe them out.

Absolutely. The important thing is that no organization would ever have that kind of nuclear leverage over another, like Rangers. So in the end somehow canyon could be taken over my militia/Rangers and made a normal checkpoint. In real world, the nuclear status quo (aka deterrence theory) works because multiple countries have nukes, not because only one side has one. It is the fear, and an actual real one, that once, say, Russia detects US open silos, Russia's silos open automatically and send missiles too. AFAIK it's even how programming works for nuclear weapons in real world. That is why countries, instead of just turning each other into moon scape like during glorious old days, have to sit down in UN and talk until they reach some sort of compromise, and why Veto-system exists.

With just one nuke imo it's more like a game of bluff. Will they do or will they don't. Enough to scare raiders though, maybe.

 

[flabbyjack]

... It is the fear, and an actual real one, that once, say, Russia detects US open silos, Russia's silos open automatically and send missiles too. AFAIK it's even how programming works for nuclear weapons in real world.

No, at least on the USA side there is still an operator(s) at the controls and they have to manually key in their codes which are of course locked up tighter than a virgin's pussy. It's not Skynet... yet.

The idea is that missiles coming from Russia or wherever will have to cross the Pacific ocean, which is plenty of time to order a counter-attack. Of course the incoming nukes could be launched from a submarine right off the coast instead, but we check for that I assume. And besides, a surprise submarine attack's missiles would still have to cross the continental USA.

 

[circ]

Still, having one less nuke in the area is going to be the better choice in the long term, even if that shithole of a valley is going to be terrorized by raiders until the now-powerful Damonta community and the rangers have enough of their shenanigans and wipe them out.

Absolutely. The important thing is that no organization would ever have that kind of nuclear leverage over another, like Rangers. So in the end somehow canyon could be taken over my militia/Rangers and made a normal checkpoint. In real world, the nuclear status quo (aka deterrence theory) works because multiple countries have nukes, not because only one side has one. It is the fear, and an actual real one, that once, say, Russia detects US open silos, Russia's silos open automatically and send missiles too. AFAIK it's even how programming works for nuclear weapons in real world. That is why countries, instead of just turning each other into moon scape like during glorious old days, have to sit down in UN and talk until they reach some sort of compromise, and why Veto-system exists.

With just one nuke imo it's more like a game of bluff. Will they do or will they don't. Enough to scare raiders though, maybe.

If you talk to Vargas after disarming the nuke he too will say that it was the right thing to do. I paraphrase but he said something like - now no one has the power and there's minor chaos in the canyon. Chaos is easy to stomp out unlike two major factions.

 

[Shadenuat]

The idea is that missiles coming from Russia or wherever will have to cross the Pacific ocean, which is plenty of time to order a counter-attack.

I think USSR tried to actually create that kind of response system. But let's say it's an allegory and things happen like you say - one side detects another and sends their own package.
I still found what was happening there in the canyon a bit iffy.
But I did appreciate that place probably more than any other. I think it was the only place in game where I was actually thinking on how to make right set of actions and how do I proceed with that situation.

If you talk to Vargas after disarming the nuke he too will say that it was the right thing to do. I paraphrase but he said something like - now no one has the power and there's minor chaos in the canyon. Chaos is easy to stomp out unlike two major factions.

Yeah, Vargas approved of that decision. He is an idealist however, self sacrificing type. uh, literally.

 

[Bradylama]

There was no self-sacrifice though. Rangers disarmed the nuke and destabilized the canyon, which will make it easier for the Rangers to set up shop when they have the power to. It's a win-win situation for the Rangers, which is why Vargas approves.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I nuked the tits off that place.

 

[Norfleet]

No, at least on the USA side there is still an operator(s) at the controls and they have to manually key in their codes which are of course locked up tighter than a virgin's pussy. It's not Skynet... yet.

Hahahaha. The top secret nuclear code during the height of the Cold War was "00000000".

 

[Shadenuat]

What will happen if you kill all raiders in Highpool & maybe finish their base, but not fix the pipes, and go into AG? Is there some sort of in between Mediocre Success at both or Mediocre Failure at both instead of Great Success at one place and Awful Tragedy at another?

 

[Norfleet]

What will happen if you kill all raiders in Highpool & maybe finish their base, but not fix the pipes, and go into AG? Is there some sort of in between Mediocre Success at both or Mediocre Failure at both instead of Great Success at one place and Awful Tragedy at another?

It is not possible to do this: If you enter one, and then leave, the death message of the other is immediately sent. There is no option to stabilize the situation and then try to save the other before it's too late.

Frankly, the way the system works sort of is at odds with the depiction of the world. The Radio Tower is characterized as being a day's march from Ranger Citadel. So if an "immediate and urgent crisis occurs", there'd be no fucking way you could get out to any of those places faster than a day or two, and the progression of those events strongly implies that the situation crumbles quickly. This is quite typical of game designs, really, that sort of ignore time and space when creating emergency situations, so that you receive notification of an immediate emergency when you could be days, weeks, or even months out from the place that needs "immediate" help. You also cannot split your command into two groups to deal with the situation.

 

[Lemming42]

The only thing that really bothered me about the AG Center/Highpool choice is that it makes the rangers look like a pack of pussies. They can't dispatch ANY other rangers to deal with the immediate crisis that threatens all of Arizona? None of the dickbags sitting around doing nothing at Ranger Citadel can get off their huge fat asses and waddle over to one of the places that need help?

I personally felt kind of detached from the whole Highpool/AG Center thing anyway. You aren't really given any information about the advantages of saving each place so it makes most sense to just go for whichever is closer. Seeing that the AG Center got fucked over sucked (although the ruined AG Center map is pretty cool) but I didn't feel like I had any control over it anyway. Thankfully, all the other choices in the game feel much more natural and less forced.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

I don't really like the choice between AG/highpool, locking content based off of meaningful informed choices and quest outcomes is one thing, but locking off a massive area with a split second decision based on limited exposure/information is boring to me, never was a fan of it.
Although I appreciate that I can choose to completely ignore the ag center interior, which I've done pretty much consistently.

 

[Norfleet]

The only thing that really bothered me about the AG Center/Highpool choice is that it makes the rangers look like a pack of pussies. They can't dispatch ANY other rangers to deal with the immediate crisis that threatens all of Arizona? None of the dickbags sitting around doing nothing at Ranger Citadel can get off their huge fat asses and waddle over to one of the places that need help?

Well, they are days away, like I said. At the distance you are from either of those two points at the point the distress calls come in, you could, theoretically, have covered both points by the time help from Ranger Citadel could arrive at either of the two.

On the other hand, they do have this HELICOPTER...

 

[Shadenuat]

The helicopter thing totally pissed me off. The moment those doors opened and I realized we had working helicopter all that time I walked irradiated wastes, I wanted to stab Vargas with rusty spike in the eye.
Actually we had 2 helicopters, at least one was shot down by Matthias.

 

[Norfleet]

The helicopter thing totally pissed me off. The moment those doors opened and I realized we had working helicopter all that time I walked irradiated wastes, I wanted to stab Vargas with rusty spike in the eye.

Hey, fuel ain't cheap. It makes perfect sense that you'd be doing regular patrols on foot. It's not like they have an easy ability to produce unlimited jet fuel in the post-apocalyptic wasteland. But you'd think for something like an URGENT EMERGENCY, you'd consider sending a chopper...

...but I guess Vargas doesn't consider the possibility of losing his food or his water important enough to burn some jet fuel over.

 

[Shadenuat]

Turned out thing I took for C&C is not one. I thought that infected villages and such were a C to my C of not going into AG Center, but if you go AG center, Sue the pigeon boy gives you same missions & you get the cure. Which actually means there doesn't seem to be an additional gameplay consequence for choosing AG center or Highpool. Of course you lose all the missions and extra dialogue if you forego one for another, so it is still extra replayability, but it is not exactly what I would call lasting consequence. If some of parts of world got infected badly because of choice I would call it one.

I'd say AG is also a lot more fun and challenging than boring slog that those pipes in Highpool are. It actually has good difficulty, on Supreme Jerk at least. You will lol on charging bunnies doing 20+ damage per hit, poisonous vapors and larvae, and so on.

And of course Rose is actually interesting and a 10 INT companion with excellent skills and potential to learn more, fixing holes in any party composition.

 

[Saduj]

Ralphy's personality dramatically changes if you have him the in the party and don't stop his father from blowing himself up. I'm hoping getting him laid will result in a more positive attitude.

 

[Shadenuat]

Just got extra quest and location by using dialogue skill with bartender at Nomad's. Now we're talking. Er, literally.

 

[Shadenuat]

Totally fucked up monks with alarms and buttnaked gun running, used scrambler, even if nuke is fake. DMB taken over, some monks still in temple, harmed patients on beds are also enemies. Total script mess
So after cleanup DMB say they know now nuke is fraud, so they send me to silo 7 just like monks did.

I can't but wonder if I disarm nuke now, I will return to temple and find DMB leader in a pool of blood, crying

"Rangers... u suck"

edit. oh no hey it doesn't happen. you push DMB into charge they get canyon, you disarm nuke they call you traitor but there is no "chaos" ending. interesting.

I wonder if that happened because I killed Raider Leader and his pack, that was basically ~5 people with pistols.

+: If anyone feels bad about slaughter in Prison after that dog-lover goes crazy from poisoning his dogs and think you screwed somehow, don't be. I googled a thread from InXile and it turns out dead civilians get triggered by you activating main plot trigger in Damonta. Even if you kill poison guy before, or touch there nothing, you get the locked "bad" state and everyone you helped ends up dead. So feel free to farm 'em Red Scorpions for early XPs and stuffies.

For shame InXile. That is not reactivity. I hope things like that would get changed later.