Game News Religion in games - cliched with under-used potential

[Naked Ninja]

For what it's worth, I thought you made some good points in the article, even if the tone's too rambling for my tastes.

Cool, thanks.

Ramblin' is just the way I roll.

 

[Serus]

I agree with the title "religion in games - cliched with under-used potential", religion is cliched in games, as is in most fantasy books. Unfortunately in the article itself there are some false (or at least very disputable) assumptions as Kris pointed it.

Note to self : Never discuss religion on the internet again, it's too tiring.

Never discuss ANYTHING on the internet with this approach. What did you expect ? That everyone will agree with you because of your unfinished wisdom ?

 

[hiver]

Did you hear that Gareth!?
First a snapping argument then a whipping conclusion!
Let your kung fu take you out of this one, hah!



man, i cant wait when will this internet allow smacking people over the head online...

 

[Naked Ninja]

Never discuss ANYTHING on the internet with this approach. What did you expect ? That everyone will agree with you because of your unfinished wisdom ?

No, but I did think people would take a moment to really consider what I was saying before leaping to the offense.

I know, I know, in hindsight, pretty naive.

Did you hear that Gareth!?
First a snapping argument then a whipping conclusion!
Let your kung fu take you out of this one, hah!

I am unable to, the overwhelming superiority of his argument left me stunned and reeling. I have no counters against such wit.

 

[Volourn]

"o, but I did think people would take a moment to really consider what I was saying before leaping to the offense."

We considered it. It's moronic. We let you know in true Codexian fashion, and now you are cryin' about it. Deal with it.

 

[Naked Ninja]

We considered it. It's moronic. We let you know in true Codexian fashion, and now you are cryin' about it. Deal with it.

Did you stop to read my suggestion Volourn? No impact whatsoever.

 

[Cassidy]

If I ever designed a CRPG, I would just take on Real religions. Saves effort from inventing them, allows for truly believable religions that really look like they have existed for thousands of years.

And I would get free publicity from the Catholic Church

But yes, I'm really tired of the D&D cliché as well. Although I'd rather completely silent gods, with enough uncertainty to make atheism a viable concept.

 

[Volourn]

"But yes, I'm really tired of the D&D cliché as well."

Exept D&D didn't invent the idea of inetrvering gods. Let's not forget the whole Greek mythology. And, there's a reason why it's such a popular mythology today, and the Greek Gods are much more 'in your face' than the D&D gods.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Exept D&D didn't invent the idea of inetrvering gods. Let's not forget the whole Greek mythology. And, there's a reason why it's such a popular mythology today, and the Greek Gods are much more 'in your face' than the D&D gods.

Except that in D&D, the gods are real instead of stories. The Greeks would've been in a lot of trouble if Gods like the ones they imagined were actually watching them and messing with things.

That's the problem, D&D takes the stories, makes them real, forgets that the stories in those cultures were just stories and that the consequences of them being real might be problematic. Cool fables don't necessarily make well designed, balanced settings.

 

[Cassidy]

Exept D&D didn't invent the idea of inetrvering gods. Let's not forget the whole Greek mythology. And, there's a reason why it's such a popular mythology today, and the Greek Gods are much more 'in your face' than the D&D gods.

Except that in D&D, the gods are real instead of stories. The Greeks would've been in a lot of trouble if Gods like the ones they imagined were actually watching them and messing with things.

That's the problem, D&D takes the stories, makes them real, forgets that the stories in those cultures were just stories and that the consequences of them being real might have problematic ramifications.

This reminds me of an IT Studios thread on how magic is usually a gimmick rather than integrated with the game or tabletop RPG setting world. Add the fact that actively intervening gods and free will can be considered mutually exclusive from a logical standpoint.

 

[Longshanks]

Aren't D&D campains also stories?

I understand most of your objections to D&D gods, but, the logic that something is okay for a story (Greek god stories), because stories are not real or trying to emulate reality, but that it's not okay for a fictional story in a fictional setting, seems a little off.

You're saying that the gods are real in D&D, weren't they just as real in the Greek god stories? ie. real and active in the story, but known to not be taken literally, or to even be entirely ficitonal, by most of those partaking of it?

 

[Wyrmlord]

NN

Do you have any interesting ideas about what situations you can create in the game based on absent and unseen powers whose existence is uncertain?

 

[Unradscorpion]

What is this trend to break tropes even if they are perfectly fine?
Do I really want all my gods realistic and lore stuffed down my throat built so that it never gives me a definite answer and instead demonstrates the authenticy with no real point?

I call this article mental masturbation.

 

[Gragt]

I call this article mental masturbation.

More like mental menstruation AMIRITE?

 

[Volourn]

"Except that in D&D, the gods are real instead of stories. The Greeks would've been in a lot of trouble if Gods like the ones they imagined were actually watching them and messing with things."

Are you that ignorant about Greek mythology. The Greek Gods were always messing with things. That's the whole point of the mythology.

Again, for the ignorant (that means you), Greek mythology was the one that brought 'intervering dieties' into the forefront (not sure if they were the first but certainly before D&D.

Tool.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

For faith to be viable, uncertainty must reign

This judgement draws from a modern perspective on religion and belief and thus is wrong.
The average european person living during the middleages knew that god exists. It was accepted as a fact and there was no doubt about it, the idea that god doesnt exist was unthinkable.

 

[Unradscorpion]

I call this article mental masturbation.

More like mental menstruation AMIRITE?

Wasted resources however you turn it.

 

[hiver]

Are you that ignorant about Greek mythology. The Greek Gods were always messing with things. That's the whole point of the mythology.

He was saying that Greek mythology was a made up story and that there were no real gods messing with anything in ancient Greece.

This judgement draws from a modern perspective on religion and belief and thus is wrong.
The average european person living during the middleages knew that god exists. It was accepted as a fact and there was no doubt about it, the idea that god doesnt exist was unthinkable.

You have no idea what average European person was really thinking.
And they certainly didnt "know" anything. All they had is faith in uncertain deity.

Uncertainty was more then present because there was no certainty that god would accept any prayer and act on it, quite the contrary.

 

[Naked Ninja]

He was saying that Greek mythology was a made up story and that there were no real gods messing with anything in ancient Greece.

Exactly. If the average person has never actually seen Zeus or a Medusa, then what you have is faith/belief, not knowledge. Otherwise no one would have ever messed with Athens, if Athena was watching over it and people had directly witnessed her buttkicking anyone who messed with her city.

There is a lot of difference between saying "the gods will protect us, I'm certain!" and having a divine entity rain meteors on anyone who fucks with you. The one is faith, the other knowledge. Ancient Greeks didn't run into battle knowing that their priest could literally call on real, perceptible divine protection and wrath with a simple chant, like they can in D&D. There is a difference between believing that you have divine favour, and having a wall of phantom blades circling you doing 8d8 damage because your priest said "Hey, Zeus, help us out here man".

Uncertainty was more then present because there was no certainty that god would accept any prayer and act on it, quite the contrary.

Yes, this. The point of uncertainty is not uncertainty in their existence, it's uncertainty about the relationship between man and divine. You shouldn't be able to directly talk to them, or call on them at a whim. And miracles should be obscured enough that no one can look at them and go "that, that proves it 100%, no point in doubting now", because that makes interesting human elements like conflicting faiths and heretics fairly unlikely. If Zeus wiped out New York and then wrote the following on mount Everest for all the world to see : "I am Zeus, bow down and don't fuck with me", it would be hard for Christians to dispute the existence of Zeus, amirite?

 

[Longshanks]

Similar uncertainty exists, even with active gods, just as it did in Greek mythology. Sure, most are certain that gods exist and that they are powerful, but the interaction between these active gods and humans, or even each other, is still uncertain - how or even if a god will respond to your prayers is unkown. Gods in Greek mythology were nothing like as reliable as those favoring clerics in D&D. Not only were their favours changeable, but the gods themselves were fallible and did not exactly speak plainly to the people, otherwise prophets and oracles would not have been needed.

I agree with you, as I'm sure most do, that the majority of RPGs and imagined worlds in general, handle religion in a simplistic and cliched way. However, I think you went too far in dismissing active gods or gods of a domain as intrinsically bad (misrepresentation?). You seem to be coming at this as a lover of lore, and understandably heavily favouring a more uncertain, less tangible divine force. A religion with active gods at its head will likely have less interesting lore, though the extent of this will of course depend on the level of activity (does not have to be unrestricted or unsubtle. I mean, the Christian god is supposedly all powerful and ever present but chooses to act rarely or subtly) and willingness of the gods to share their innermost thoughts with mortals.

If I were to be creating an RPG setting I doubt I'd go with active gods, or gods with 2 dimensional personalities divided into neat domains. That's not my personal preference. But, I don't see the inherent wrongness of it that you do, in any sense other than it's a weak basis for a discourse on religion and is overdone (though, plenty of scope for something different, and it's not as if more people-based religions have been ignored in fiction). Especially for say, a single game, where religion may only be a relatively small part of the experience. A game setting that contains a large amount of historical lore may choose a low-lore approach to religion, as information overload even if optional, is a real concern.

Note to self : Never discuss religion on the internet again, it's too tiring.

You need to build up a cult following, like VD, then you'll have a small group who'll readily agree with you on most anything, even actively defending your teachings against non-believers. You do seem to have one such follower already :wink:. (j/k, no offence meant to NN or his follower)

 

[Volourn]

"He was saying that Greek mythology was a made up story and that there were no real gods messing with anything in ancient Greece."

Eh? Of coruse, they're made up. That's why it's called mythology. The point is, according to the mythology - which is fiction - the Greek gods were always intervering quite publically just like their D&D counterparts. Yet, Greek mythology and its gods are still very popular in all sorts of fictional works.

And, they still bring the drama, religious battles, and everything else which the moron who wrote the piece claimed that you can only get via gods that never intervere.

That's bullshit. Plain, and simple.

 

[hiver]

You need to build up a cult following, like VD, then you'll have a small group who'll readily agree with you on most anything, even actively defending your teachings against non-believers. You do seem to have one such follower already Wink. (j/k, no offence meant to NN or his follower)

ah that brought me a laugh. thanks for that.

First off if you would hang a bit on IT forums you would notice that there are no VDs followers who agree with him on everything automatically.
Recent thread about this same issue shows that clearly.

And having such followers would be the last thing NN or VD need. If there is a high amount of agreement with their ideas thats because most of them are simply good.

My comments here were as they are primarily because most posters here didnt even bother reading and completely understanding exactly what he is saying before commenting on it. Which makes them either meaningless or just tiresome.
(because such posts require from NN or me or anyone else who agrees on the merit of this idea to first explain whole concept all over again, which is very difficult to do once people start believing they know *what he really wanted to say* and then to argue all over again)
At least i dont have any attention of going over it all again, since ive done that already at IT forums (caster is the name over yonder) and against much better arguments too.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Eh? Of coruse, they're made up. That's why it's called mythology. The point is, according to the mythology - which is fiction - the Greek gods were always intervering quite publically just like their D&D counterparts. Yet, Greek mythology and its gods are still very popular in all sorts of fictional works.

And, they still bring the drama, religious battles, and everything else which the moron who wrote the piece claimed that you can only get via gods that never intervere.

You're not getting this.

The greeks didn't have active gods. Not one. They had stories of active gods, which they told each other and it inspired faith. They believed, but they didn't have proof. Stories told by priests are not equal to real gods doing those things in front of witnesses.

I'm not saying your fantasy setting can't have exactly the same thing. Culture X can have many and varied stories of real active gods doing miracles, like coming down from the sky and turning everyone into cheese sandwiches. As many stories and as dramatic as you like.

But, like for the greeks, they should, by and large, be stories, not reality. Because the reality of those stories would actually ruin a lot of the interesting human elements in religions that occur because people believe, but cannot prove, their faith. And then argue about their beliefs. Hard to argue dogma when you can just ask your God directly.

 

[Volourn]

You are an idiot. You aren't getting it; but not surprising since to your ignorance only your way is the right way to make a GAME.

It doesn't matter if the 'real' ancient greeks had 100% solid proof that their gods existed. As for the characters in the mythical stories go, the gods were REAL and active so they reacted as such. And, guess what? There was still drama, religious wars, and a host of other cool things. Which is PERFECT for games (or books/movies) that deal with gods.


"Because the reality of those stories would actually ruin a lot of the interesting human elements in religions that occur because people believe, but cannot prove, their faith. And then argue about their beliefs. Hard to argue dogma when you can just ask your God directly."

Absolutely, and utterly bullshit. Both Greek Mythology, and D&D disputes your theory to hell. HELL, there are FR gods that have multiple sects that oppose each other. Doof.

Even in Greek Mythology, two groups with the same god may actually oppose each other.

LOTS OF DRAMA.

 

[Claw]

All I can think of in this context is that I really liked the game mechanics regarding deities in Realms of Arkania.
The only thing I'd really want to improve is establish stronger relationships between the gods, make it harder to get on a god's good - wonder-dispensing - side, and restrict the ressurrection to the gods of life and death, or at least make it much harder - and less chance-based - to get rezzed by a god.
Some gods should dislike each other, and getting too friendly with one god should lower a rival's disposition towards you.
Add a bunch of quest related to the gods and their priests and actions that affect the gods disposition towards you and you get an interesting game mechanic.
Heck, what was missing in RoA was a negative wonder mechanic - piss off the god of oceans too much and you better stay on land. Annoy the god of fire and your weapons are more likely to break.

PS:

I also don't believe that this and most of NN's ideas are mutually exclusive.