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Incline Remember when paradox was good?

Unwanted

Micormic

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Joined
Mar 25, 2009
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939
Man the other day I fired up victoria 1/2 each for a bit then EU 3 for a bit. Who else remembers when these swedish cucks made good games?




Hoi4 is fallout 3/ultima 8/9 level shit. If you like it you're probably retarded. Stellaris even worse, eu 4 bad but not quite as bad as those 2, lol.



Sorry I'm just infact mad as fuck.
 

Fedora Master

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The funniest thing is that Paradox aren't just content with making shitty NEW games, they retroactively fuck with decent ones to make them bad. Look at CK2.
 

Raghar

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They are not only company that kills proper game design. Endless Space 2 made space combat worse than it was at release.
 

vota DC

Augur
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Aug 23, 2016
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I even remember when EA rts were good, C&C Generals was a masterpiece compared of what they did after.
In case of Paradox the decline is with Hoi 3.
Hoi 2 > Hoi 1
Few years passed from Hoi 1 to Hoi 2.
Then they had many years to do Hoi 3 and game was disappointing.
Tons of years between Hoi 3 and Hoi 4, again disappointing.
The funniest thing is that the best sequel of Hoi 2 is Darkest Hour that was made by a smaller team while the big team with more time and resources couldn't improve Hoi 2.
 

Preben

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Paradox was never good. The problem is that they are the only game developer who make that kind of strategy games. They can produce shit and people will still buy them.
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
If you're really retro the paradox you remember as being good is the EU2 era. Yeah, a lot less systems, and depending on which nation you played as it could get quite deterministic. But with AGC, it was a living history book and you could learn some stuff to boot.
Or just play as an ahistorical and/or minor nation and get hardly any events. Those were the days.

EU3 and 4 embraced the attempt to be a true simulator, piling up layer upon layer of systems and later jettisoned any connection to reality in favor of providing a much more equal footing so everyone in the Paradox LAN games would stop complaining. Fuck those players out there actually buying these games!
 

Fedora Master

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The funniest thing is that Paradox aren't just content with making shitty NEW games, they retroactively fuck with decent ones to make them bad. Look at CK2.

How is it worse? I only ever played vanilla.

They added India, bloating the game without a good reason and only fixed the performance issues much later. To say nothing of the constant liberal agenda pushing.

Paradox was never good. The problem is that they are the only game developer who make that kind of strategy games. They can produce shit and people will still buy them.
Vicky, EU3, HoI3 are all considered solid games.
 
Unwanted

Micormic

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If you're really retro the paradox you remember as being good is the EU2 era. Yeah, a lot less systems, and depending on which nation you played as it could get quite deterministic. But with AGC, it was a living history book and you could learn some stuff to boot.
Or just play as an ahistorical and/or minor nation and get hardly any events. Those were the days.

EU3 and 4 embraced the attempt to be a true simulator, piling up layer upon layer of systems and later jettisoned any connection to reality in favor of providing a much more equal footing so everyone in the Paradox LAN games would stop complaining. Fuck those players out there actually buying these games!


I liked EU2 as a kid but I don't consider EU 3 with expansions to be a decline from it.


Vanilla eu3 in 2007 or whenever it came out? Yea it was pretty bad lol.
 
Unwanted

Micormic

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The funniest thing is that Paradox aren't just content with making shitty NEW games, they retroactively fuck with decent ones to make them bad. Look at CK2.


I hardly played ck2, that game and later eu4 had the most paywalls I'd ever seen up to that point. Good thing I got the complete versions of both for free from swindling g2a.com.


CK never appealed to me the way the other games did.
 

Preben

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If you're really retro the paradox you remember as being good is the EU2 era. Yeah, a lot less systems, and depending on which nation you played as it could get quite deterministic. But with AGC, it was a living history book and you could learn some stuff to boot.
Or just play as an ahistorical and/or minor nation and get hardly any events. Those were the days.

EU1/2 were extremely railroaded into replaying history, with historical events firing even if they made absolutely no sense. Gameplay was basically a variant of Risk, because blobbing was bound to make you unstoppable. These were exactly the games which gave rise to the terms Big Blue Blob and Big White Blob. Those giant provinces also meant that in some cases it was possible to cripple a big country entirely by taking just one crucial province. For example, if player was Lithuania (or Poland) and took one specific province (Ufa IIRC, but don't quote me on it), Russia was bound to fail.


Vicky, EU3, HoI3 are all considered solid games.

EU3 was good only with mods (Magna Mundi ruled until Ubik went crazy) and IIRC Paradox abandoned it after Divine Wind which made it borderline unplayable and rife with weird shit like Genoan Siberia.

I admit I haven't played Vicky much. I tried, but I am perhaps not autistic enough to have fun while working with spreadsheet. I may try HoI3 though. I got a CD version with all expansions as a present, but never bothered to install it.
 
Last edited:

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
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EU1/2 were extremely railroaded into replaying history, with historical events firing even if they made absolutely no sense. Gameplay was basically a variant of Risk, because blobbing was bound to make you unstoppable. These were exactly the games which gave rise to the terms Big Blue Blob and Big White Blob. Those giant provinces also meant that in some cases it was possible to cripple a big country entirely by taking just one crucial province. For example, if player was Lithuania (or Poland) and took one specific province (Ufa IIRC, but don't quote me on it), Russia was bound to fail.

That's what you always get to hear in these kinds of arguments. It's nonsense, though.
Because complaining about railroading in a historical strategy game is like complaining about the presence of firearms in a military shooter. Of course EU2 tried to guide events along a certain path, it tried to not only start as a historical game, but also stay one.
You'd get the historical monarchs and leaders. The system tried to orchestrate everything so that the the results would remain plausible throughout four centuries. Sometimes this didn't quite work out, granted. In each game you would get a couple of events (or at least witness them) that made little sense given the context. But disregarding that, the world stayed familiar enough so you could at all times feel as if you were in an alternate (but close to reality) history setting. This was the appeal.
And if events failed, it was generally because their triggers were not fine-grained enough. AGC and EEP tried to remedy this, and they enjoyed a measure of success, but realistically, if you'd try to properly account for all possible situations, you'd need a HUGE amount of triggers/events. Maybe one day there could be a deep-learning AI that modifies such events on the fly, but human-written events went to a certain length and then called it a day, understandably.

Only when AGC and EEP merged did the accusation become somewhat valid, especially if you play a nation they focused on. For example, trying to guide Japan through their civil war in AGCEEP is an excercise in frustration where most players will at some point just throw their hands in the air and let the events happen as they happen - there's just an insane amount of railroading going on.
But this merger happened when EU2 had already been around for years.

Anyway, back to the railroading argument, this complaint was exactly why Paradox gave up on the idea of being a historical game and instead created games with a historical theme.
You can play Spain in EU2 and complain about the Netherlands revolting even though you kept the populace there extremely happy, about getting bancrupcy events from the new world even though you kept your inflation in check, about the treaty of tordesillias firing even though you conquered most of Portugal and them not having a single colony and so on and so forth, sure, that stuff sucks.

But to me, it's 1000 times better than having Algeria conquering the Balkans and becoming a major colonial power in the new world, along with Cologne and Novgorod, Tirol owning most of Italy and having somehow gotten Ireland and North England, some sub-saharan tribe westernizing and conquering most of china, Turkey trying to get to their historical strength, but being stopped in their tracks by a coalition of Austria, The Hanseatic League, Burgundy, the Illkhanate, the Aztecs and Norway, working better than the NATO would centuries later - none of which even sharing a common border with the Turks ... all on a world map that looks drastically different from the real world (border-wise), with only some recognizeable names, completely fictional leaders and monarchs .... you get the point.
 
Unwanted

Micormic

Unwanted
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
939
If you're really retro the paradox you remember as being good is the EU2 era. Yeah, a lot less systems, and depending on which nation you played as it could get quite deterministic. But with AGC, it was a living history book and you could learn some stuff to boot.
Or just play as an ahistorical and/or minor nation and get hardly any events. Those were the days.

EU1/2 were extremely railroaded into replaying history, with historical events firing even if they made absolutely no sense. Gameplay was basically a variant of Risk, because blobbing was bound to make you unstoppable. These were exactly the games which gave rise to the terms Big Blue Blob and Big White Blob. Those giant provinces also meant that in some cases it was possible to cripple a big country entirely by taking just one crucial province. For example, if player was Lithuania (or Poland) and took one specific province (Ufa IIRC, but don't quote me on it), Russia was bound to fail.


Vicky, EU3, HoI3 are all considered solid games.

EU3 was good only with mods (Magna Mundi ruled until Ubik went crazy) and IIRC Paradox abandoned it after Divine Wind which made it borderline unplayable and rife with weird shit like Genoan Siberia.

I admit I haven't played Vicky much. I tried, but I am perhaps not autistic enough to have fun while working with spreadsheet. I may try HoI3 though. I got a CD version with all expansions as a present, but never bothered to install it.



HOI3 is substantially harder and more....Not sure if complex is the right word, I'll go with cognitively intensive than Vicky 1/2 lol.


It doesn't seem like it because it's only a wargame but micromanaging 400 individual divisions....Well lets just say although I enjoyed the game it wasn't something I could play all the time.
 

passerby

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Nov 16, 2016
Messages
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Paradox was never good. The problem is that they are the only game developer who make that kind of strategy games. They can produce shit and people will still buy them.

Paradox is like Bethesda of strategy games, on paper their games are the most amazing and wholesome world simulators in the genre, in practice they are nonsensical mess that normies use as larping platform.
 

111111111

Guest
I thought crusader kings were okay. Never played the other ones so cant judge

but Ck2 is fucking amazing for what it is
 
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
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189
Location
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Paradox was never good. The problem is that they are the only game developer who make that kind of strategy games. They can produce shit and people will still buy them.

Paradox is like Bethesda of strategy games, on paper their games are the most amazing and wholesome world simulators in the genre, in practice they are nonsensical mess that normies use as larping platform.

so does HOI4 let you install mods that make you want to unzip your pants and rock out with your dripping cock?
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
1,788
I was going to say yes but honestly Victoria 2's not that good without mods and has a lot of hardcoded design failures that mods can't fix anyways, like the atrociously tedious process of building armies or the way goods don't travel but just teleport.

Paradox was never good, they just found a niche with no competition.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Paradox was an exemplary developer which became an execrable publisher. A mirror-image of Electronic Arts, an exemplary publisher which became an execrable developer. :M
 
Unwanted

Micormic

Unwanted
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
939
Paradox was never good. The problem is that they are the only game developer who make that kind of strategy games. They can produce shit and people will still buy them.

Paradox is like Bethesda of strategy games, on paper their games are the most amazing and wholesome world simulators in the genre, in practice they are nonsensical mess that normies use as larping platform.

so does HOI4 let you install mods that make you want to unzip your pants and rock out with your dripping cock?


Why don't you type like a normal person instead of being a retard?
 
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
189
Location
Massachusetts
Paradox was never good. The problem is that they are the only game developer who make that kind of strategy games. They can produce shit and people will still buy them.

Paradox is like Bethesda of strategy games, on paper their games are the most amazing and wholesome world simulators in the genre, in practice they are nonsensical mess that normies use as larping platform.

so does HOI4 let you install mods that make you want to unzip your pants and rock out with your dripping cock?


Why don't you type like a normal person instead of being a retard?

It's a genuine question - I totally would reinstall HOI4 for that :)))
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Anyway, back to the railroading argument, this complaint was exactly why Paradox gave up on the idea of being a historical game and instead created games with a historical theme.
You can play Spain in EU2 and complain about the Netherlands revolting even though you kept the populace there extremely happy, about getting bancrupcy events from the new world even though you kept your inflation in check, about the treaty of tordesillias firing even though you conquered most of Portugal and them not having a single colony and so on and so forth, sure, that stuff sucks.

But to me, it's 1000 times better than having Algeria conquering the Balkans and becoming a major colonial power in the new world, along with Cologne and Novgorod, Tirol owning most of Italy and having somehow gotten Ireland and North England, some sub-saharan tribe westernizing and conquering most of china, Turkey trying to get to their historical strength, but being stopped in their tracks by a coalition of Austria, The Hanseatic League, Burgundy, the Illkhanate, the Aztecs and Norway, working better than the NATO would centuries later - none of which even sharing a common border with the Turks ... all on a world map that looks drastically different from the real world (border-wise), with only some recognizeable names, completely fictional leaders and monarchs .... you get the point.

Actually, I vastly prefer the weird ahistorical outcomes from the new Paradox games. In my games of CK2 with all expansions, usually things happen relatively believably, but in some games you just get some weird shit that makes things more interesting. It's boring to have the exact same results every time you play a new game. It's much more interesting when anything can happen - and if we're honest, during history things often only happened the way they did because circumstances were exactly one way, and not another. So if you change a few variables, things might turn out very differently. Yes, Byzantium surviving past 1453 is a possibility. Prussia never becoming a major power is a possibility. Scandinavia never getting Christianized is a possibility. Etc.

And the simulationist approach means that even if the results are weird and wonky, at least they're systemically believable. And they make the games more interesting because you never know how the world will end up in the end.
 

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