RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Big Wrangle]

Chris Avellone with your contribution to Prey, do you see yourself doing more stuff with other genres in the future?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Its funny the leaker of that info being you and blaming Obs afterwards, also you

It is widely believed that when that statement was revealed, that it was blaming Bethesda.

It wasn't, it was recognizing we as a studio should have done better - and even a little bit better (1%) could have had huge benefits (and we could have kept people we had to let go).

My feelings then are the same as my feelings now, and I stand by that. It's an unpopular stance (the anti-underdog stance usually is compared to the underdog needs a little more training montage moments), but I believe it's the correct one.

Bethesda was trying to encourage us to do a quality job, they didn't have to, and we missed the mark - but within the realm where it was clear we could have fixed it.

I wrote post-mortems as reminders and plans to myself about how we could fix this in the future (clear hierarchy, keep the people who can make the decisions focused on reviewing the content and enacting change and finding bugs vs. adding more features/getting lost in the weeds, etc.).

I'd love to hear your idea of the perfect development team and how it should work.

Chris already mentioned that he recommended that Eric not be the creative lead because he was too busy creative leading South Park.

Looking at the list of PoE's writers, they really didn't have anyone there qualified for the job except maybe Matt MacLean who was busy elsewhere (also a lead on South Park, eventually leading Tyranny). Perhaps Avellone should have stepped up himself like Feargus initially wanted.

Stepping up was dangerous and demoralizing, especially with Feargus. For all the games that got released, there were others on the never-got-made pile.

But dispensing with the vague answer, here's the specifics of one case, and why I became hesitant to be a lead at Obsidian again (not just South Park, but elsewhere).

After DS3, I did get asked to take on a Project Director role (for a potential sequel) not by Feargus - but because of Feargus.

The reason I was asked, however, was because of how Feargus was treating the team – for all the control he tried in DS3, it had upped in DS4, and the team came to me and asked if I would come on to be a buffer between them and Feargus, since they were finding a hard time getting approvals and getting work done. It ended up being a lesson that made me very hesitant to report to Feargus (even though I did in the last year at Obsidian).

Feargus, it turned out, sometimes had a tactic where if he disapproves of someone or is angry at someone, he micromanages them to an excruciating degree, calls out everything he objects to (not something that’s necessarily wrong, just something he objects to), and makes it very difficult to move forward on anything. I had seen hints of this indirectly, but never experienced it – it sometimes was employed as a way to get someone to resign without actually firing them. It mostly seemed like an extended form of punishment with no positive goal except to punish the person for some perceived failing.

So I agreed to take on the role, because the ones asking me genuinely seemed to need help, and I also foolishly thought that surely this couldn’t be the case. The project also seemed like it might be fun.

Within 2 weeks of the role, I realized the team was absolutely right, and the problem wasn’t limited to what was brought up to me – it was worse.

While being a buffer helped (slightly), the issue started coming up that Feargus would do sudden pivots on elements he had approved and the team had spent a lot of time on. He would also forget he approved them and would assume he hadn't when he saw a decision he (now) didn't like had been made.

I’m not sure I even classify these events as lies when they occurred because it involves memory and the old classic managerial “gut instinct,” but what I discovered is that elements I would fight for and the team wanted (starting with the story, which was being savaged just like DS3) would be given approval by Feargus when I asked, then he would forget he gave approval, and within a few days of me relaying the good news to the team, he would backpedal and say, “Why this story and not mine? I never approved that.” When confronted on the fact he had approved the change, it would then become, “well, it’s not how I feel today.”

When this occurred, I felt as if I had lied to the team and let them down – and the situation had been out of my control despite my best intentions.

Realizing I couldn’t manage if I didn’t get reliable approvals (it undermined anything I said or did), I stepped down.

The pitch died not long after, which was probably for the best. The core idea was sound, but the process was going to strangle the life out of it. More time and money wasted.

The “I don’t care what I approved, that’s not how I feel today” management retractions would happen a lot. It happened with Parker, too. I don’t care so much about managers changing their mind, but it was rarely communicated to the people who needed to know when they did – and you felt like you were about to walk into a trap you can’t even see coming every time you had a meeting. It would also be easier to take if it the dismisiveness of the decision didn’t also come with anger at the person relaying what had been asked for – and the messenger had no idea their manager no longer wanted it, because their manager had never communicated they had changed their minds and when they had changed their minds. It was like watching days, even weeks of work, spiral down the toilet.

Again, part of this is a manager’s right, but between Feargus and Parker, their management style would often be to ask for something, you’d plan it out, work on it, and then when they got exposed to what they’d asked for, they’d claim they never approved it.

When you took a risky move and said they had (and could prove it), their response would be, “well, it’s not what I want today.”

And I do say “risky move” in bringing up the facts of what they asked for because of what would happen when you did.

So, in an effort to fix this (my next mistake), I started relying more on email to track requests and get confirmation vs. face-to-face meetings (which I thought might be the problem, since no notes were taken so decisions could get clouded).

This tracking mechanism worked, but ended up being a mistake, since the facts ended up not being the issue.

The reason it was “risky” was because presenting facts and their actual request never went over well – they’d lose their temper because their change of mind was exposed, so the facts ended up being useless. (Parker once lost it when I asked when we were getting a designer on KOTOR2 that he had promised and was using exclusively for UI work, since it was past the date for the designer to move over to content assistance – and then told me despite what he had promised, this was simply the way it was now, and the designer I had planned for would simply not be available and I had best deal with it – and this blaming was for a plan I hadn’t even proposed, so I didn’t understand the rage.)

Managers can change their mind, that’s fine, but it’s rough when you plan ahead and your manager has changed their mind and doesn’t tell you. It’s more disempowering and chilling when you realize they don’t even know what they asked for or approved of - compounded with the feeling when you have to tell the team the bad news.

My opinion is “That’s not how I feel today” makes it impossible to plan for tomorrow.

How in the ever loving fuck did you people ever manage to actually make games?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone with your contribution to Prey, do you see yourself doing more stuff with other genres in the future?

Yes, and am. I find it helps my writing experience to write for other genres of games (and other genres of media). While I like RPGs, I don't solely want to do RPGs all the time.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I think this Obsidian Planescape idea preceded that article, it's something that was discussed before even the Project Eternity Kickstarter. I'm not sure they even got as far as talking to WotC. Perhaps Chris can enlighten us.

You're right - so I equate Planescape with Torment, which is a mistake and can be confusing.

Let me rephrase:

I should have said "Torment" Kickstarter (although we were planning to call it "Last Rites," since that was the original name of the game, but we wanted to get the Torment name - see below). Sorry for the confusion.

We weren't planning on using the Planescape setting, but instead do a spiritual successor (like Numenera did).

One additional frustration (which I don't blame Fargo for in the slightest) is that Feargus knew the Torment name was coming up and could be bought, but he moved too slow and Fargo secured it first (Fargo keeps tabs on things like that). That contributed to my lack of desire to work on the KS as well - I couldn't even get my boss to take action when we needed him to, he dragged his feet when he shouldn't.

One positive for Fargo is he actually made time to talk to me about it after it happened, and I appreciated the face-to-face discussion - and I told him I certainly didn't have any hard feelings (I didn't, I never saw the property as "mine," I just saw it as a missed opportunity for Obsidian).

What was in the the game pitch you have written?

 

[Lycra Suit]

I did enjoy creating lore for Tyranny

You did?

 

[Big Wrangle]

He enjoyed the lore he worked on. Doesn't mean he liked every character backstory.

 

[Chris Avellone]

You did?

I didn't write Kills-in-Shadow (I left before any dialogue writing, but I had done a lot of world-building). Some of those elements didn't remain, but I didn't play Tyranny, so I couldn't tell what I did vs. what was new.

I did enjoy working on the background lore and world-building.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I think Hasbro are just being weird with D&D licenses and probably make some insane demands. Otherwise it makes no sense for them to rebuff both Fargo and Feargus, and then give the license to some assbutt studio.

I'd imagine that the ongoing legal gordian knot surrounding Marvel IPs made a lot of people wary about licensing their properties to 3rd party entities.

 

[Big Wrangle]

This reminds me of something, actually.
Chris Avellone do you ever get midly annoyed when people over-credit you for being involved in something?

 

[Chris Avellone]

I don't know who you are, No Name, but you made me laugh out loud.

 

[Roguey]

Otherwise it makes no sense for them to rebuff both Fargo and Feargus, and then give the license to some assbutt studio.

They had good reason to ignore Fargo though since that fucker owed them money.

 

[Lycra Suit]

 

[Israfael]

Chris Avellone If it's not a secret, who was behind the decision to reinvent the wheel and make 'totally not D&D 4' with the same streamlining issues that the actual D&D suffers from? Was it just licensing issues (not sure if Pathfinder existed at that point) or something else? For me, personally, a new, yet the same (and very bland) system was a very off-putting thing that made me quit the game after the insane paladin castle (or whatever he was)

 

[Chris Avellone]

This reminds me of something, actually.
Chris Avellone do you ever get midly annoyed when people over-credit you for being involved in something?

No - I get REALLY annoyed (and sometimes angry) because it's de-valuing the work of others.

Also, when your work gets misrepresented, it can cause players and Backers to assume things that aren't true about what you contributed as well, which is not something I approve of.

Recognizing this could be a problem but that I could fix it, I structured my later contracts so I get a chance to approve credits and also public mentions of what I'm doing on projects so there's no miscommunication.

(I had an especially bad experience on Alpha Protocol where Game Informer wrongly attributed my role on the project as Lead Writer, which was unfair to Brian Mitsoda who held the role.) I believe a retraction was asked to be published, but I don't think Parker ever asked them to do so.

 

[Roguey]

If it's not a secret, who was behind the decision to reinvent the wheel and make 'totally not D&D 4' with the same streamlining issues that the actual D&D suffers from? Was it just licensing issues (not sure if Pathfinder existed at that point) or something else? For me, personally, a new, yet the same (and very bland) system was a very off-putting thing that made me quit the game after the insane paladin castle (or whatever he was)

That is 100% Josh.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Otherwise it makes no sense for them to rebuff both Fargo and Feargus, and then give the license to some assbutt studio.

They had good reason to ignore Fargo though since that fucker owed them money.

Why would Fargo owe them money?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone If it's not a secret, who was behind the decision to reinvent the wheel and make 'totally not D&D 4' with the same streamlining issues that the actual D&D suffers from? Was it just licensing issues (not sure if Pathfinder existed at that point) or something else? For me, personally, a new, yet the same (and very bland) system was a very off-putting thing that made me quit the game after the insane paladin castle (or whatever he was)

I don't know, I wasn't involved with the game's systems.

 

[Plane Escapee]

Chris Avellone have you spoken to MLMarkland since he left Obsidian? He's been quite outspoken about his own experiences with bad management (though so far - not at Obsidian). Do you know if there were any specific incidents that led to him leaving?

 

[Phanax]

How the fuck can this thread still be going? This is borderline experimental. /jay

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone have you spoken to MLMarkland since he left Obsidian? He's been quite outspoken about his own experiences with bad management (though so far - not at Obsidian). Do you know if there were any specific incidents that led to him leaving?

I didn't work with Monty much at Obsidian (we were on different projects), although he was always nice to me and I appreciated his passion for Planescape.

I got the impression (please don't take this as fact, as I don't know), that the Aliens cancellation and transfer to Alpha Protocol wasn't really a thrill for most folks, and that likely contributed to his departure (he was going to be moved to production on AP, but he may have been looking as soon as the layoffs happened - a lot of people were, since layoffs don't mean the people left behind have job security, either).

EDIT: I didn't answer your question. Yes, I saw him twice after Obsidian - once at a Friendsgiving dinner at his house (Friendsgiving = for everyone who's family is too far away for the Thanksgiving holidays) and once while I was walking through a local mall and we crossed paths and chatted for a bit.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Chris Avellone when it comes to the Tyranny world building, who created the Glen Cook style random name generator (I’m just assuming this must exist)? Also, please license something from Cook before he dies.

 

[Big Wrangle]

How the fuck can this thread still be going? This is borderline experimental. /jay

This has become MCA's new pastime and we are merely his puppets.

 

[Roguey]

Why would Fargo owe them money?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-legacy-of-the-crusader.113141/#post-4921807

Granted that was post-Fargo Interplay, but the problems existed before he left.

Additionally, and more relevantly there's http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-numenera-thread.113925/page-162#post-5018618

 

[Fenix]

considering how big his ego comes off from the stories in MCA's posts.

Yeah, he look absolutely like power hunger authoritarian personality, who using every opportunity to show his power, even if that harmful for his company.
I wonder, if what MCA told that FU often refused to come on a scheduled meeting was just to show everyone, that he CAN do that.

 

[Darkzone]

I don't know who you are, No Name, but you made me laugh out loud.

View attachment 8859

Some polish guy wrote this.
Darth Raxor confess ! You just wanted to do something for your senpai !