RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Bohr]

So this thread has even brought Hiver back to the Codex

 

[Phanax]

We've never been a paid site - reliant on funding from reader numbers and ad revenue - so we've never cared.

There's no way to change that without fundamentally meaning threads like this wouldn't occur. Which part of this topic would you like excised, for example, to tidy it up? The first bit about communism, the second bit, the bit in-between about whatever that was? Ultimately cutting bits out doesn't matter and changes nothing. People who care will find the important bits, others will make the summaries, and the world will keep turning.

If we take the approach that certain viewpoints are toxic (basically anything to the right of the political spectrum) then we're just the same as all those other idiots who missed Trump becoming President.

Fundamentally, in "normal" forums (with stricter moderation and very limited free speech) people have conversations and arguments while being forced to hide 95% of their thoughts. Personally, I 'd find that hilarious, if it weren't so tragic. Frankly, I pity them.

Never change, Codex.

You hit the nail on the head as to why I can't seem to ever stick around on regular forums and why the Codex is such a breath of fresh air.

Well, the air might smell of farts from time to time but at least you can be assured of that luxury. There's nothing worse than everyone agreeing with each other because people are afraid to provide contrary opinions - it smells so fake.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Kit Walker was doing it on purpose, screw that guy. I hope he gets raped by silverback gorillas, gets malaria, leprosy, buttcrack cancer, and the treatment for all those will be in a hospital build entirely out of asbestos.

And when he finally dies, I hope the priest at the funeral uses normal water by mistake. This way ground won't be consecrated and fucker will go straight to hell. Lucifer will penetrate him with Spear of Destiny, every hour of every day, forever and ever until the end of time, while a choir of tone deaf nuns will be signing "How Deep Is Your Love" by the Bee Gees.

 

[MF]

There's probably a separate art director (though I'm sure Leonard supervises him)

I hope so. Leonard Boyarsky's sense of aesthetics is one of the few things I'll unironically fanboy over. From Fallout to Arcanum to Bloodlines. Sexy as fuck. He's a great artist and his drawings are gorgeous, but what he's even better at is guiding people towards a consistent vision.

I really, really want to see that Cain/Boyarsky game become a reality.

Which reminds me: Chris Avellone, when we were working on the Fallout Bible with Dan and Section 8 of Microforte to keep FO: Tactics from straying too far, you said something about the original Fallout story, and when I wrote for vault13.net (I was 14 at the time, memory is fuzzy) Tim mentioned that the guy who drafted the story was Scott Campbell. You figured back then that he didn't get enough credit, even though you weren't sure because you weren't part of Fallout 1. It's a long time ago , but the question of Fallout's origins has since gained some heft.

Now that Fallout is a household name and I see girls in line at the grocery store wearing a vault boy t-shirt, our silly endless discussions about whether talking Deathclaws should be canon or not seem to carry more weight than I would have ever thought possible, while at the same time being completely irrelevant. I know it's no longer considered canon, but did you or people at Bethesda ever end up referencing the bible or was that a wasted effort on our part?

PS I recall Scott mentioning that he replaced Feargus as a playtester at Interplay on Castles 2, so Feargus wasn't always a business guy. At some point he got paid to test games. Just think about that and realize that you should never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by...anything that could give you more peace of mind. Peter Principle is a bitch.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

There's no way to change that without fundamentally meaning threads like this wouldn't occur. Which part of this topic would you like excised, for example, to tidy it up? The first bit about communism, the second bit, the bit in-between about whatever that was? Ultimately cutting bits out doesn't matter and changes nothing. People who care will find the important bits, ,others will make the summaries, and the world will keep turning.

You realize how hypocritical that sounds when just a few hours ago you forbid Kit Walker from using the same avatar as MCA since it was confusing readers, right?

Sacrifices must be made. Also there's a big difference between changing someone's avatar (for the record, he changed it himself - and my other consideration was to change everyone's avatar to MCA's for extra shits 'n giggles) and denying them speech. In the same way we have all these colourful tags for people. You can say what you like, we just might put up a warning to others if we think it's too retarded. And we'll let everyone else judge those actions accordingly.

And you're conflating two issues. This has nothing to do with politics, no one is asking you to ban the attention-whores spamming low-effort shitposts - you just don't have to keep them in this thread. Otherwise what's the point of having GD and its sub-forums?

Splitting conversations out of a thread never benefits anyone. If a conversation naturally arises about different topics within a thread, it's really hard to excise it cleanly. While Infinitron makes various attempts at that sometimes (mostly which I disagree with tbh), to me it changes nothing of the remaining conversation. An internet forum is an inherently chaotic place and it's difficult to organise that on a per post level in any sort of form.

It really comes out as try-hard, like you actually want this garbage here and like looking like you're edgy and don't care.

Pretty much that last one. The Codex wasn't founded to be nice to developers. And if a former developer wants to come here and shit all over his colleagues, he's pretty much free to do so. Like everything else, it will be discussed. And as you can see in this thread, MCA doesn't just have his legions of mindless supporter drones, there are those criticising MCA for his actions too.

Any other forum and we'd either have banned all those who dared disagree with a beloved developer posting in our little neck of the woods, or we would've sided with Obsidian and excised MCA's account. This thread would've been locked around page 50 for being "too heated". Then we'd try and pretend it never happened, which usually means banning half the forum as people keep bringing the topic up.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

I'd dearly love to see an actual journalist (and there are one or two serious game journalists) interview Chris and press Feargus for his side of the story. Sadly, we'll likely never see that because the venue has poisoned the message.

It's less that the venue has poisoned the message and more that even those one or two games journos you respect so highly are more interested in positive relations with game devs than they are in exposing dirt on them.

Mainstream sites are all too willing to run articles on the Codex to try and assassinate Rex's character or link to interviews we've done when a dev divulges some interesting tidbit of upcoming game info, but mysteriously go silent on issues like this. They don't even need to credit the Codex. They can just use screenshots or cite "sources" like all the big non-games journos do.

It's got nothing to do with what's been said in this thread and everything to do with what they're really interested in and how this business works.

Give it a year after Obsidian finally goes under and maybe one of those oh-so-serious games journos will suddenly develop a backbone and talk about this openly. Until then...

 

[Maculo]

There's no way to change that without fundamentally meaning threads like this wouldn't occur. Which part of this topic would you like excised, for example, to tidy it up? The first bit about communism, the second bit, the bit in-between about whatever that was? Ultimately cutting bits out doesn't matter and changes nothing. People who care will find the important bits, others will make the summaries, and the world will keep turning.

You realize how hypocritical that sounds when just a few hours ago you forbid Kit Walker from using the same avatar as MCA since it was confusing readers, right?

And you're conflating two issues. This has nothing to do with politics, no one is asking you to ban the attention-whores spamming low-effort shitposts - you just don't have to keep them in this thread. Otherwise what's the point of having GD and its sub-forums?

It really comes out as try-hard, like you actually want this garbage here and like looking like you're edgy and don't care.

DU never removed or altered Kit's posts though. If changing Kit's avatar is greatest "hypocrisy" you can point to in DU's post, then I cannot imagine it is that bad.

How are you going to truly classify a shitpost, when even Avellone has been making off topic jabs? Are you going to remove Avellone's post to GD?

 

[felipepepe]

Kit Walker was doing it on purpose, screw that guy.

Oh yeah, and the posts about communism here are totally legit and lead to some amazing debate, is not just attention whores trolling on the Codex's most popular thread in years...

 

[pomenitul]

Fundamentally, in "normal" forums (with stricter moderation and very limited free speech) people have conversations and arguments while being forced to hide 95% of their thoughts.

Because there is clearly nothing to hide in a culture where trolly edginess and one-upmanship reign supreme.

 

[v1rus]

Chris Avellone

Since, as you yourself said, there have been way too many questions, and you havent managed to answer/catch them all (which I, ofc, absolutely understand), I'm going to try once more, hoping you will see it this time. I hope you dont take this as rude/pushy. And, I hope I'm not missing the point - most of the questions seem to relate to current situation in the industry, but I caught a few offtopic ones, and I really want to pick your brain.

Well, since this thread has taken a far more pleasant "ask Chris Avellone himself" turn, Ill give it a try.

Which would be your top 5 or 10 games when it comes to writing, excluding your own work? Then, what games highlight the artistic capabilities of the medium the best? Would they be the same as those with the best writing or not, and why.

On an unrelated note, what did you think of Witcher 3?

Heck, while we are here, I'd like to toss another one - what is your opinion, and have you ever consciously based your work on narrative models such as monomyth/writers journey/etc.? How applicable are they when it comes to video games?

 

[Cael]

(thanks to kick backs, secret agreements, and general cock-sucking)

Come now. You act as if one of your mods don't do the same. He has been called out on it by multiple posters, including, if it means anything at all, someone who has been here for a very long time.

I don't know exactly what MCA's intent is, whether he's just off his meds, has finally decided to go nuclear, or is genuinely trying to effect (affect? who knows) change within Obsidian. All I do know is the way he describes Feargus reminds me very much of a CEO I used worked for. Very similar attitude towards money - when things were down we were all broke and it was cut cut cut and panic, then when money came in we were hiring 15 extra guys we didn't need and spreading the goodwill around like it was Christmas - rather than actually planning or structuring a lot of the expenditure for the long-term.

I have worked with a company where only 1 or 2 out of over 80 staff were a problem, and yet the whole company went from having the potential to be the best of the best in its field to one that would be near impossible to even get rated "satisfactory" by the client. Favouritism is a nasty, NASTY thing and the fallout from it is horrendous. I could list the bullying, harassment, bigotry, undermining, politics, and worse, but that would take a novel. Even the clients started accusing them of favouritism, racism and worse. It got to the point where it became untenable, and as my project team started losing its best people to "reassignment" and they were replaced with favourites who were placed to get a bit of shine from good projects, I switched modes from being the leader of the team to being the janitor. After the last of the original team left the company, I walked away as well. I did give them a warning that if any of their favourites try to push crap on me again, I will just drop everything and walk out. After that, it was a matter of when, not if, something like that would happen.

From what I understand of Chris Avellone's posts, that was part of the problem over in Obsidian shortly before he left the place.

 

[Jenkem]

MCA hasn't revealed any huge secrets - we've long known Obsidian and Feargus had issues. He used to run Interplay after all and remember where that company went? Some French man bought it, sold most of their shit off at auction, and now their website looks like something from geocities circa 1999.

wow, you're right... the website is really fucking strange these days.. and by the way affect is a verb and effect is a noun

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Kit Walker was doing it on purpose, screw that guy.

Oh yeah, and the posts about communism here are totally legit and lead to some amazing debate, is not just attention whores trolling on the Codex's most popular thread in years...

Actually, yes. The main subject f this thread has been treatment of workers by a corporation. It's only natural that you have commies raise their heads.

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

There's no way to change that without fundamentally meaning threads like this wouldn't occur. Which part of this topic would you like excised, for example, to tidy it up? The first bit about communism, the second bit, the bit in-between about whatever that was? Ultimately cutting bits out doesn't matter and changes nothing. People who care will find the important bits, others will make the summaries, and the world will keep turning.

You realize how hypocritical that sounds when just a few hours ago you forbid Kit Walker from using the same avatar as MCA since it was confusing readers, right?

And you're conflating two issues. This has nothing to do with politics, no one is asking you to ban the attention-whores spamming low-effort shitposts - you just don't have to keep them in this thread. Otherwise what's the point of having GD and its sub-forums?

Maybe DU is all about democratic values or maybe that Kit Walker guy almost started an insurrection. Also, are you going to be the new premier authority on what constitutes low-effort shitposting? I dunno, why not ignore it.

Perhaps, DU wants the Codex to be a force for greater balance, especially when the competition has this going for it...
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...iticise-supposed-sjw-material-in-games.24028/

Because predominantly straight white male gamers feel threatened that their hobby will somehow be taken from them and given over to women and minorities.

It's essentially like children not wanting to share.

Alt right idiots with poor relationship skills with women take out their sexual frustration in their only venue - games.

Also anime kids who don't understand what the word "censorship" means.

Or Maybe DU just doesn't give a fuck, TWIMTBP.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Or Maybe DU just doesn't give a fuck

:australia:

 

[Maculo]

Kit Walker was doing it on purpose, screw that guy.

Oh yeah, and the posts about communism here are totally legit and lead to some amazing debate, is not just attention whores trolling on the Codex's most popular thread in years...

I think you are wrong on this. People debated the working conditions at Obsidian and practices, and compared different standards (USA, Europe, etc). Some posters did take it too far (Blaine, Prime Junta, etc), but you failed to notice that the discussion reined itself in again. The posters moderated themselves.

Furthermore, how is it any less legit than, "why are we not a tier 1 website" and comparing an avatar change to mass banning and censorship?

Edit: You also failed to mention Avellone's own posts. Like calling IHaveHugeNick a "fucking shill," going off on Blaine, talking about Elex, or jabbing an Infinitron for being fake news. Truly, legitimate discussion and tier one website worthy . Isn't a little hypocritical to want DU and the staff to censor/remove posts, but yet you neglect to mention Avellone himself?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

(thanks to kick backs, secret agreements, and general cock-sucking)

Come now. You act as if one of your mods don't do the same. He has been called out on it by multiple posters, including, if it means anything at all, someone who has been here for a very long time.

I'm well aware of the inadequacies of various members of staff.

Everyone has their bias. And a point at which there are things they won't tolerate. Even me. Finding people willing to volunteer for an RPG community site is always difficult and you take the good with the bad. Nobody is perfect. You can alleviate some of that with guidelines and clear rules, but then others will take that too far. Rex used to have the same criticism levelled against him, as did VD, as did Saint_Proverbius, along with all those inbetween. Ideally we'd have a couple of mods / news posters so that it's not all one person's view, but the history of the Codex shows it's always been one main person modding / posting news until they get exhausted and we move on to the next one out to burn them out too eventually.

Kit Walker was doing it on purpose, screw that guy.

Oh yeah, and the posts about communism here are totally legit and lead to some amazing debate, is not just attention whores trolling on the Codex's most popular thread in years...

I generally try not to judge the quality of the debate. To me, a forum topic is like any natural conversation. You might start talking about Trump winning the Nobel Peace Prize but by the end of it, you're discussing Penguins in Madagascar and wondering how you got there, with many half-made and dropped conversation points along the way. You can't control that. At what point do you decide that a derailing around communism is unacceptable but you're own which has lead to a discussion about forum moderation is ok?

 

[fantadomat]

DarkUnderlord never change mate,may the spark of anarchy stays strong in you.

 

[Wild Slop]

A Brazilian that can't stand idly by while commies are being rooted out. hmmmmm

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

In the same way we have all these colourful tags for people. You can say what you like, we just might put up a warning to others if we think it's too retarded. And we'll let everyone else judge those actions accordingly.

I don't see any tags on IHaveHugeNick. He is a cousin of you or something. Or maybe you just don't feel like it. This place is just like Obsidian.

If a conversation naturally arises about different topics within a thread, it's really hard to excise it cleanly.

Naturally my ass. These communists are shamefully trying to infect a discussion about game design with marxist propaganda and they didn't even bother to hide.

While Infinitron makes various attempts at that sometimes (mostly which I disagree with tbh), to me it changes nothing of the remaining conversation. An internet forum is an inherently chaotic place and it's difficult to organise that on a per post level in any sort of form.

Says you, and I'm one that already had comments moved to other threads by the way. It works. But apparently in threads that really matter the whole site needs to read through the garbage so that we can actually read Avellone's posts. It's like you are trying to ruin the best thread we had in years.

 

[fantadomat]

Kit Walker was doing it on purpose, screw that guy.

Oh yeah, and the posts about communism here are totally legit and lead to some amazing debate, is not just attention whores trolling on the Codex's most popular thread in years...

Stop being butthurt mate,you spend 11 years on this forum and get ralliedd up by a few pages of shit tossing match between nazi party and the red menace!?

 

[felipepepe]

Furthermore, how is it any less legit than, "why are we not a tier 1 website" and comparing an avatar change to mass banning and censorship?

Moving posts =/= "mass banning and censorship". Don't be such a drama queen.

And sure, move everything out.

 

[Maculo]

Furthermore, how is it any less legit than, "why are we not a tier 1 website" and comparing an avatar change to mass banning and censorship?

Moving posts =/= "mass banning and censorship". Don't be such a drama queen.

And sure, move everything out.

Its your comparison to begin with. You shouldn't being calling anyone a drama queen or a hypocrite at this point.

Furthermore, you cherry picked my post. You failed to mention that the communism discussion moderated itself. You also didn't take into account Avellone's own conduct, and yet that is more legitimate? It is a false dichotomy in a thread approaching 200 pages.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Finding people willing to volunteer for an RPG community site is always difficult