Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Colin McComb on Writing for Torment: Tides of Numenera

[TwinkieGorilla]

How am I just noticing this interview now? Great stuff, guys.

grotsnik, please become content staff.

Seconded!

Also: Time limits are generally shit and implemented poorly. I also cannot think of a single decent example of a time limit actually enhancing a game.

 

[Gozma]

In MotB the power that you could use to burn like some minor chunk of your XP to reset the hunger meter thing made the curse mechanic trivial in true terms of winning and losing, so it was a really velvet-gloved mechanic already. It just had the "format" of a real gameplay parameter (this is using the definition where games are about winning and losing), like a declawed cat, and even that little scrap added a lot to the game. You were right Zeits. You were alwaysss riiiggggghhtt

Lots of people (in particular, game journalists) seriously just want to have their game come in completely pre-chewed form and theoretically unloseable, and for mass-market attempts like Obsidian tries to make you have to cater to them.

 

[Infinitron]

In MotB the power that you could use to burn like some minor chunk of your XP to reset the hunger meter thing made the curse mechanic trivial in true terms of winning and losing, so it was a really velvet-gloved mechanic already. It just had the "format" of a real gameplay parameter (this is using the definition where games are about winning and losing), like a declawed cat, and even that little scrap added a lot to the game. You were right Zeits. You were alwaysss riiiggggghhtt

Lots of people (in particular, game journalists) seriously just want to have their game come in completely pre-chewed form and theoretically unloseable, and for mass-market attempts like Obsidian tries to make you have to cater to them.

The thing about time limits is that they rankle even players who consider themselves "hardcore" because they are completionists who explore everything. I AM A HARDCORE GAMER OBSIDIAN WHY WON'T YOU LET ME BE HARDCORE

 

[Gozma]

Yeah, you are right to use the word completionism, that is the real point of contention... I forgot about it

Explore everything = touch all boxes, all boxes must be touched, garcon more boxdes

 

[FeelTheRads]

They are used to taking their time, sleep after every fight, go resque cats from trees etc. while the world is burning. And they don't want to change their behavor.

That's obvious to everybody. So? Should all games be made for them?

 

[almondblight]

Also: Time limits are generally shit and implemented poorly. I also cannot think of a single decent example of a time limit actually enhancing a game.

They were really good in Exile III. I think the trick is making interesting fail states instead of game overs. For example, most people would probably try to avoid the vault dying from dehydration and all of the towns being taken over by supermutants. But a play through of Fallout where someone screws around exploring for years, comes back to find the vault destroyed and all the town razed by the mutant hordes, then as the sole remaining human takes out the mutants and wanders off alone into the desert would be pretty memorable.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I really wouldn't lump the meter in MotB in with "time limits". If you manage your character well, it barely poses a problem at all. Though this could also be an argument for a mechanic being poorly implemented (though I prefer to think I am simply smart enough to "beat" the spirit meter ) .

I think the trick is making interesting fail states instead of game overs..

Don't get me wrong, I like what CMcC says in the interview about not being afraid to let people lose. I mean...I kind of LOVE that. However, my point is that I can't think of many examples where these sorts of things are implemented in either a way which proves to be a challenge which actually enhances the game (instead of being simply tedious and/or annoying) or something which is, at the very least, an interesting mechanic or storytelling device. MotB is close but I never particularly felt challenged by it. You are interested in it at the beginning but then it just becomes...like an eating mechanic in FO:NV hc mode. Tedious.

 

[Gozma]

I'm personally only talking in the context of a full craving game, where there is certainly time pressure even if "time limit" is a misnomer. I don't like the mechanics for low craving games because the suppress mechanics are shitty and best handled with dumb exploitive behavior.

 

[Rake]

They are used to taking their time, sleep after every fight, go resque cats from trees etc. while the world is burning. And they don't want to change their behavor.

That's obvious to everybody. So? Should all games be made for them?

Of course not. But because more people hate it than not, the developer has to be carefull and better yet, to have said that he will include something like this from the start, so the people know what they will get.
It's not a smart dessision for a gaming company to include something that you know the majority of your backers hate.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you manage your character well, it barely poses a problem at all.

And if you don't sleep the whole game, the time limit in Fallout barely poses any problem at all. It doesn't necessarily have to be a limit that you can barely beat. One that's there and forces you to make decisions based on it because IT WILL eventually catch up with you? Bring it on.

Mutant invasions of every town except Necropolis were removed in the patch.

Yeah. Fucking decline. Invisible time limit is awesome trolling.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Mutant invasions of every town except Necropolis were removed in the patch. (although confusingly, mutant invasions still occur in the endgame; the endgame will tell you that mutants invaded towns, even though ingame they were still intact)

Actually full invasions were never fully implemented.

 

[tuluse]

Of course not. But because more people hate it than not, the developer has to be carefull and better yet, to have said that he will include something like this from the start, so the people know what they will get.
It's not a smart dessision for a gaming company to include something that you know the majority of your backers hate.

More people hate turn based than not. It's not a smart decision for a gaming company to include something you know the majority of customers hate.

 

[Rake]

Of course not. But because more people hate it than not, the developer has to be carefull and better yet, to have said that he will include something like this from the start, so the people know what they will get.
It's not a smart dessision for a gaming company to include something that you know the majority of your backers hate.

More people hate turn based than not. It's not a smart decision for a gaming company to include differing you know the majority of customers hate.

It depends. If like Wasteland 2 you say from the start that you will make a TB game, people who can't stand TB know to stay clear of the game, and those who back you do so knowingly.
That sosial element Fargo wanted to put in the game is a closer example to what i speak. It was an element that most of the backers didn't wanted in the game. Would be a good idea to put it in the game?

 

[tuluse]

Do you have actual evidence the majority of backers are against a time pressure mechanic?

 

[Rake]

Do you have actual evidence the majority of backers are against a time pressure mechanic?

No. As i said i personaly like it. But both MotB and Fallout were criticised for their time limits. To the point that Fallout was patched to extend the time limit and in MotB many people used the console to remove the spirit mechanic.

 

[Gozma]

I think it's partially the normal problem of "democracy", where a few people that care a lot about RPGs being their "comfy couch" & OCD satisfaction genre win vs. a lot of people that don't have constant hard-ons for time limits but rather just aren't actively against the concept

 

[Gurkog]

Taking away the time limit in Fallout threw the balancing for non-combat skills out the window. Medical, science, repair, etc... all consumed time based on skill level, but the removal of a time limit meant that there was no longer a perishable resource being consumed. The player no longer had an incentive in focusing on developing those skills over the other ones that had immediate consequences. It is not like Fallout was a huge game that a player could get totally lost in and easily forfeit their time by exploring. The main problem was forfeiting time to spam first-aid and doctor after every fight or rest to regain health, and the time required to fix shit or manipulate computers for quests or loot.

 

[Jaedar]

Let's not forget survival: one of its major uses was moving faster on the overworld map iirc.

Nice interview as well. Codex needs more content like this.

 

[Karellen]

I've been thinking about why people hate time limits so much in games, because honestly my most enjoyable and exciting game of Fallout was the first time around when I actually thought I was in a hurry. Instead of slavishly doing everything at every location, I skipped over a hell of a lot of content (including almost all of Junktown) and actually felt a bit out of my depth once I got into Necropolis. It was almost like *gasp* playing a game!

I sometimes hear people blame the for this, but from playing board games with "normal people", as it were, it seems to me that the average person (actually, the average 10-year-old child, for that matter) is perfectly capable of planning several moves ahead, accounting for uncertainties and reacting to changes in the game scenario. Actually that's what a lot of normal, popular board games like Settlers of Catan and such are about, so unless there's something about playing an RPG that drops a person's IQ by thirty, I don't see why people couldn't manage it.

It occurs to me, however, that in board games you usually have an adequate amount of information to work with, often abstracted in a convenient way. In comparsion, setting aside that you don't know where you're supposed to go, the Fallout map screen is not all that helpful in estimating travel times, and anyway, if you're running late, you can do fuck all about it. If you could actually make decent estimates as to how long it takes to move around, and if you could do stuff like hire guides, buy equipment or pack animals and so on to temporarily speed up travel for specific routes or something, you would have actual options for time management (and something to do with your filthy piles of bottle caps too, for that matter).

I also think time limits would be much better received if they were a more central mechanic of the game. As it is, Fallout's single 150-day time limit (and the subsequent hidden time limit) are kind of ancillary to the game as a whole - more like a distant, irritating limitation, rather than a primary element of how you play the game. If the game consistently had more immediate time-sensitive stuff to deal with in other quests too, and an interface and play options that would let the player effectively gauge and manage their use of time, I'm pretty sure that players would quickly get used to the idea that they actually have to get shit done on time, instead of whining about how it limits their ability to dick around.

 

[Haba]

Yes. Time limits are like any gameplay mechanic - you actually have to design them in the game. If done well they enhance the atmosphere and provide additional strategic challenge. If they are just tacked on, they become a major annoyance.

Personally I love games where you come into situations where your preconceived "game logic" expectations are challenged (i.e. where the damsel in distress actually dies if you ignore the urgency of the situation). Especially if that failure doesn't result in binary missed quest, but rather a new outcome and future consequences.

Doesn't mean that you should do that always in every game, oh no.

 

[Barghest]

Do you have actual evidence the majority of backers are against a time pressure mechanic?

Do you have actual evidence the majority of backers are for a time pressure mechanism? Let me guess, no?

Your logic sucks.

 

[tuluse]

Do you have actual evidence the majority of backers are for a time pressure mechanism? Let me guess, no?

Your logic sucks.

I'm not the one claiming that the devs should change their vision based on an external reason that may or may not exist. Backers might not realize they want a time limit until they play a game where it's done well.

 

[Gurkog]

From what i have seen around various forums the fans are kind of split 50/50 on timed objectives. It all comes down to implementation. If it is done well well and sporadically the game can benefit, but if it is slapped on and abused... yuck.

 

[Midair]

The water chip time limit creates a fear that you have wasted too much time and put the game in an unwinnable state, until you find it and realize there was plenty of time.

But, Fallout is full of decisions that have unforeseen results. Often, picking the wrong dialogue option left me thinking I was doing things wrong, just like the time limit did. I've never understood how one can dislike the time limit and not dislike the whole game.

 

[CMcC]

We're not talking about a timer. A timer on certain quests might be appropriate (with some great examples above), but right now our thought is that using that as our primary pressure for the overall game is a bad idea.

Which is to say: though the word "time" does appear in that answer, we're looking at a broader implementation with a variety of mechanics, and using a timer is just way one to do it. A timed main quest seems like exactly the kind of thing that would get us into the frustrating, over-tense experience I said we were looking to avoid.

Rather than risk a polite email, let me just say that our direction points toward primary use of other tools.

(if I sound cryptic, it's because I'm exhausted and I'm trying not to give anything away)