Interview RPG Codex Interview: Dan Vávra (Warhorse Studios)

[Irenaeus]

Gotta love this guy.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

That Dan guy sure is interesting, I always thought of modern game developers as ignorant of the awesomeness of old-school RPG's, or they were just making console games to pay the bills, but this guy literally seems to believe that RPG's have progressed instead of going backwards. Fascinating.

I'll conclude that he must either be a liar and he never played older RPG's, or at least he's very shallow and only sees the graphics of a game and not the systems beneath it.

You are right. I am totally retarded.

Why do you keep posting that gif without context?

Because I am retarded, just like the guy in the gif or some other people in this thread

 

[Daniel.Vavra]

Mrowak: Apparantly you misread me in exactly the same way as JarlFrank, so let's look at my post again:

No one said he wasn't allowed to have his own tastes in games

i.e.: sure, this looks like a solid enough action RPG I guess. I'm not out to yell "his game isn't a RPG!" because frankly I find that discussion tedious. What I find idiotic is him basically saying that everyone moved beyond ten years ago (in the P&P world, at least), which is "we can finally get rid of dice! That's what everyone wanted!" The reason I describe that as hegemonic statement is that this is what we actually had ten years ago in the world of P&P: All kinds of different ways to play the game, and everyone telling everyone else how they weren't playing the game right. Ten years after, most of the P&P world have moved on. All the wargame tactics, indie-players, Vampire-goths and all the rest have basically accepted each other's existence.

He's the one telling others how to enjoy RPGs - not me. In fact, I'll probably play his game, and I hope it will be decent.

In other words, all your crap about how his game can totally work without dice is kind of odd given that I've never stated anything contrary to that, so why are you suddenly defending it as though I had?

Too much nerdrage. You seem to be unnerved by the entire "evolution" angle. Remember - evolution doesn't mean improvement - merely adaptability through (genetic/design) experimentation. It also doesn't mean that the new evolved form is all the rage and the past ones are all shit. In fact it doesn't even mean that the previous form will die out - nature teaches us they'd most likely find their own niche.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but you're not talking about anything I've commented on.

And yes, I think you are extrapolating Dan's words too far by comparing them to the opinions of some clueless TES dumbfuck.

it will finally resemble the real world as we all desired

So the RPG is no more about the dices and stats

it could be completely skill-based and it will finally resemble the real world as we all desired back in the days of pen and paper

His words, not mine.

Without over-analyzing, I don't see how this is not what that means:

1) We all desired click-to-swing-click-to-block action combat ("skill-based"), and this resembles the real world (he's making such a game, and claiming this is better than what we had previously).

2) The RPG isn't about stats and dice - i.e. such things were always just a necessary evil.


Also:

In real life, I dont see fencers throwin a dice when they fight

I don't see them click their mouse either Dan. It seems you cannot into certain kinds of abstraction.

This is what I take issue with. Fuck his game man, he can make whatever he wants. The aspiration to less-fantasy-more-medieval is one I quite enjoy, I hate high fantasy.

Actually what I meant when I was answering this question was, that finally in our game, combat and some other actions will not be just a dice rolls or tedious button bashing like in other action RPGs (or combination of both), but actual realtime skill based combat with very similar mechanics as real world combat. This wasnt possible few years ago even if you wanted. You need lot of CPU power to simulate collisions and IK during combat accurately and you need to solve how would you control this. I believe that we have both now and I really do think, that its MUCH better and closer to real world fencing than dice rolling, because there is much more combinations, more variables in play and most importanty much more choice of actions. Thats it. Maybe I didnt expressed myself clear enough, because I didnt knew what this sentence could cause here.

 

[Irenaeus]

Actually what I meant when I was answering this question was, that finally in our game, combat and some other actions will not be just a dice rolls or tedious button bashing like in other action RPGs (or combination of both), but actual realtime skill based combat with very similar mechanics as real world combat. This wasnt possible few years ago even if you wanted. You need lot of CPU power to simulate collisions and IK during combat accurately and you need to solve how would you control this. I believe that we have both now and I really do think, that its MUCH better and closer to real world fencing than dice rolling, because there is much more combinations, more variables in play and most importanty much more choice of actions. Thats it. Maybe I didnt expressed myself clear enough, because I didnt knew what this sentence could cause here.

What's "IK"?

Also, have you seen this game and, if you did, what do you think about their combat simulation, particularly compared to you system?

 

[Daniel.Vavra]

Actually what I meant when I was answering this question was, that finally in our game, combat and some other actions will not be just a dice rolls or tedious button bashing like in other action RPGs (or combination of both), but actual realtime skill based combat with very similar mechanics as real world combat. This wasnt possible few years ago even if you wanted. You need lot of CPU power to simulate collisions and IK during combat accurately and you need to solve how would you control this. I believe that we have both now and I really do think, that its MUCH better and closer to real world fencing than dice rolling, because there is much more combinations, more variables in play and most importanty much more choice of actions. Thats it. Maybe I didnt expressed myself clear enough, because I didnt knew what this sentence could cause here.

What's "IK"?

Also, have you seen this game and, if you did, what do you think about their combat simulation, particularly compared to you system?

Inverse Kinematics, basically it means, that our combat takes physics into account and everything actually reacts properly to impact of the weapon. Its one of the most complicated tasks for our coders.

Yes, I know this game. Its different than our combat (interesting idea, but much simpler and little bit awkward to control).

 

[mikaelis]

That Dan guy sure is interesting, I always thought of modern game developers as ignorant of the awesomeness of old-school RPG's, or they were just making console games to pay the bills, but this guy literally seems to believe that RPG's have progressed instead of going backwards. Fascinating.

I'll conclude that he must either be a liar and he never played older RPG's, or at least he's very shallow and only sees the graphics of a game and not the systems beneath it.

How about we stop this retarded discussion about things that were beaten to death in tousands of other topics, and ask something related to Warhorse instead (since y'know Daniel.Vavra is in this thread and can probably answer some of the questions)?

Daniel.Vavra ,

1) Was this movie from your vertical slice that was supposed to be shown to various publishers? Or is it just quickly duct-taped collage of some scenes?

2) Are most of the sub-systems already implemented in the vertical slice, or is there still a long way to go, before the current status can be considered as a proper representation of future game?

3) We know so far, that it is probably going to take place in XV century Bohemia. Is setting 100% historical? Do you consider introducing some very-low elements of fantasy/supernatural events etc.? For example witches/priests that can cast enchantment/curse? crude alchemy? Anything that can be explained nowadays with science and knowledge, but could have been interpreted as magic/miracle in middle-ages.

4) Have you started to put story together yet? Are there going to be other local kingdoms involved, apart from Czech? (e.g., German states, Poland)

5) You mentioned at one point that you aim for realistic distances, so the map will probably be a small, contained landscape where the story takes place (between two towns if I recall correctly). Are you (ideally) planning for more of such locations in different parts of the middle Europe (which obviously couldn't be connected seamlessly, but rather with the world map maybe)?

The video is just a very little glimpse of what we already have, nothing is "fake" and we have quite a lot of systems in working state(but there is still a very long way to go. Very long)
Your other questions are pretty good (I asked myself the same questions when I started designing the game), but its too soon to answer them. But I would say that you would not be dissapointed
Story is already set and some parts written, thats only thing I can say.

Many thanks for that at least. You better have those mobile fortifications (Wagenburg tactics) with firearms, Zizka and both Prokops NPCs there Also, Hussite Trilogy (by Sapkowski) is something I would ideally consider as fair implementation of magic/supernatural. Maybe a bit toned down. I guess you read it, as it was released in Czech afaik.

 

[Smejki]

Or maybe he just has different taste in games.
Cause nothing about this looks like it's deliberately dumbed down to please the masses, it's just a different kind of game. More based on player-skill than character skill. And that's fine, I like games like this too.

It looks to me to a gigantic waste of money. Those gazillions of polygons, photo-realism, motion capture animations, real-time advanced AI, all the rest, just for a game when you tap a button to block or attack. Imagine what kind of RPG could be made with that money that didn't channel most of it's money into the latest Cry Engine graphics and technologies and instead into gameplay.

Yeah how many text adventures could have been made instead of all those Fallout, Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect unnecessary graphic-whoring nonsenses.

 

[Burning Bridges]

- What do you actually mean when you claim you are aiming for a "realistic" medieval setting? Just humans? No exotic races, monsters or fictional beasts?Not that I'm intrinsically hostile to the idea, but if that's the case don't you see the risk to make your game quite boring in terms of variety?

I think it will be historicaly realistic no "Hey lizard man goblins killed my family!" but more about social status, diseases and so. That is the reason why Dan is studying hystorical books probably. You dont have to do it if you are making fantasy. Like in Mafia you were using guns, cars, clothes of that time.

I dunno, isn't there plenty to be found in Czech / German / Polish / Hungarian etc. fairytales and legends to spice up a East-Central European themed medieval simulator? In any event, everyone who is familiar with these countries, the folklore, castles and forests etc, should know that this stuff could be awesome.

 

[Smejki]

True. We should play as the PopaMole

 

[cvv]

It looks to me to a gigantic waste of money. Those gazillions of polygons, photo-realism, motion capture animations, real-time advanced AI, all the rest, just for a game when you tap a button to block or attack. Imagine what kind of RPG could be made with that money that didn't channel most of it's money into the latest Cry Engine graphics and technologies and instead into gameplay.

Yeah how many text adventures could have been made instead of all those Fallout, Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect unnecessary graphic-whoring nonsenses.

 

[villain of the story]

Actually what I meant when I was answering this question was, that finally in our game, combat and some other actions will not be just a dice rolls or tedious button bashing like in other action RPGs (or combination of both), but actual realtime skill based combat with very similar mechanics as real world combat. This wasnt possible few years ago even if you wanted. You need lot of CPU power to simulate collisions and IK during combat accurately and you need to solve how would you control this. I believe that we have both now and I really do think, that its MUCH better and closer to real world fencing than dice rolling, because there is much more combinations, more variables in play and most importanty much more choice of actions. Thats it. Maybe I didnt expressed myself clear enough, because I didnt knew what this sentence could cause here.

Just tell us this,Dan:

Do character skills; not a player's manual twitch skills with keyboard and mouse; factor significantly into the outcome of actions? If there were multiplayer in your game, would a "casual" gamer playing a highly skilled character defeat a "hardcore" twitch gamer with a low level character, by virtue of better character skills, all other things being equal? Or would the "hardcore" twitch gamer would more easily dominate the casual gamer by virtue of better manual skills with keyboard and reflexes? When I swing a weapon with my mouse, will the character stats factor into the "quality" of the swing?

TBH, IK sounds like a shitty gimmick to me. You can model a completely historically accurate combat system with all the little nuances of it based on good old dice rolls. I'll be wary at anyone claiming that you need stuff like IK for that, and I am!

Also, in "real fencing", it's of paramount importance to read your opponent's body language, to predict his actions which, in turn, are based on how experienced you are yourself to be able to take notice of the smallest gestures and do accurate assessments, while also keeping your own body language in check. So there are two ends to this: a combatant's ability to (1) read body language and (2) control own body language and both of these ends require statistical abstraction to work in a game as you can not represent varying degrees of these without character stats. Unless you want to bastardize "real fencing" by implementing an abomination of a system that tried to mimic such behaviour based on input.

Now, onto the dice rolls: if you are arguing that dice rolls are a thing of the past, of "technological limitations", then you have to introduce a new methodology to replace it. Purpose of dice rolls are abstracted conflict resolutions that take into account every relevant statistical bit about characters in addition to those unpredictable and unexpected which are otherwise unaccounted for but are presumed, eg. a slight slip of your foot by chance or stepping on a stone or getting a cramp maybe or making a momentary mistake with your grip of the weapon or any number of things, hence the dice rolls. Level of chance could be as large or little as the designer wants it to be. So if you are deeming a proven methodology obsolete, then what is your replacement? Will there even be space for statistical unpredictability at all?

If not, then your system is binary: Fighter #A has Sword skill at level 29. Fighter #B has Sword skill at level 30. All other things being equal, Fighter #B wins unconditionally. Every time. BANAL. BORING. SHIT.

If there will be, then what is the methodology? You surely can not be relying on gimmicky shit like IK because I'm pretty damn sure that I won't feel a bit of these "realistic" kinematics feedback when I click or drag my mouse the way I would in real fencing, or look at an animated game model made up of fucking polygons and textures and shaders and read its body language the way I would read the body language of a real opponent in real fencing.

In other words, are you making a popamole action game or an action RPG?

 

[FeelTheRads]

IK for simulating combat in an RPG. I can only wonder what's the next thing that will revolutionize RPGs. Or is this the one to end it all? It's even better than soil erosion, so it's a tough challenge to come up with something else.