Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Feargus Urquhart at Digital Dragons 2016

[Sizzle]

Almost all the companions also abandon you as soon s you go the Legion route, indicating that the moral compass is tilted towards the NCR.

Almost all the companions are natives (or at least have lived there long enough) to the area, and hence have a strong anti-Legion bias.

Once and for all - the game isn't tilted towards the NCR, that's just your personal preference that you're trying to justify.

 

[vivec]

Whatever floats your boat. Next on the menu: Skyrim is totally pro-stormcloak.

 

[Perkel]

Companions who hate legion:
Two women
An ex-NCR sniper who lost his wife because of the legion
A humanist doctor
All of them have personal reasons to hate legion its not about "moral compass being tilted toward NCR"

You know you made just vivec argument valid. Also 3 women :D

 

[Infinitron]

Who says the Legion is supposed to be a morally acceptable alternative? They're the game's "evil path", an RPG tradition with a long history.

Witcher 1, on the other hand, made Lyric Suite very unhappy, because it makes you think the Order are good guys but then it turns out you've been aiding a psycho for the entire game. That's right, the opinion of the WCDS's chief theorist is that Witcher is more politically correct than FO:NV.

 

[vivec]

Actually, the Order *are* the good guys. Sigfried personifies their positive side. He also ends up as the Grandmaster if you take that route. The villains are NOT order at all, but Salamandra commanded by Alvin, who incidentally, also is the Order Grandmaster. So I see no dilemma there.

The real dillmma, however, is if Geralt sees himself as a Human, a Witcher or as an outcast. *That* decides Order, Neutral, and Sco'iatal path.

What the heck is WCDS?

 

[Perkel]

Witcher 1, on the other hand, made Lyric Suite very unhappy, because it makes you think the Order are good guys but then it turns out you've been aiding a psycho for the entire game.

Perfect example of differences between people who don't read TW books and people who play vanilla game. If you would read books first then you would know Order are basically fanatics.

Siegfried on other hand is epitome of someone good doing something he believes and trying to shape order. Meeting him first time and showing that there are great people in there was imo great thing CDPR did. It muddled water for many people including me.

Either way in TW1 there is no "good side". There are only shades of grey

 

[xxxCatholicKillahxxx]

What the heck is WCDS?

A sort of a funeral procession.

 

[Plane Escapee]

What the heck is WCDS?

Women of Culturally Diverse Sensibilities. It is very popular among ladies of a paler complexion on the Codex these days.

 

[Fairfax]

Caesar's legion.

What's PC about it? The problem with the Legion was that it was underdeveloped (if Avellone's NPC stayed in the game - Ulysses would have provided a nice pro-Legion counterbalance to the other recruitable characters).

We must have played two different games. as much as I like Chris Avellone as a writer, Ulyssys made little to no sense. And Caesar's legion was literally written to be the villains without any compelling argument whatsoever. It was implied that they would implode the day Caesar died. So there wasn't even the argument of Order out of Chaos.

Keep in mind the original concepts for both the Caesar's Legion (which MCA created) and Ulysses were very different.
Here's what he wanted to do with Ulysses before Sawyer cut it:

When doing Ulysses as a companion (he was one I got to create from scratch not in the companion doc), I had the following goals:

- He had to reinforce the faction reputation mechanic, which I thought was one of the key mechanics in the game.

- He had to react strongly to NCR/Legion conflict and the player's role in it, acting as a sounding board when possible.

- He had to be a Legion sympathetic character and explain Legion backstory elements, since there wasn't much Legion support in the companions.

- He had to continually remind the player of Hoover Dam as the focus, and his backstory incorporated that (he was the frumentarii who discovered the Dam and NCR long ago).

- Showcase myth elements. Ulysses was big about symbols, and his take on the NCR flag, the Legion flag was also reflected in their champions (he viewed Legate Lanius as an Eastern myth in the making, and he felt the player could achieve that same mythological status for the West or for the Mojave).

- He was to complement the cool visual design changes that Josh had included for other companions (similar to Raul and Arcade, Ulysses would have the vest/flag changes, except it would depend on player's end faction allegiance when they completed Ulysses' vision quest).

First 3 points would've been vital to make the Legion much less of an obvious, extreme evil path in the game.

Is it true that in the process of the development a substantial part of the Caesar's Legion content has been cut out? In the final version of the game Legion occupied only a few settlements and a large part of its quests were "evil" counterparts of NCR quests, whereas the latter had many unique quests, not connected with Legion directly. Was it possible to develop the game in a way that both sides would have been represented more or less equally or inequality had been planned right from the start?

To the last question — yes, it was possible to develop both sides, and I agree that NCR felt more prominent in New Vegas, design-wise and scope-wise, than the Legion. While I wasn’t involved with the faction design and divisions in New Vegas (I was mostly companions, some major NPCs like the Legate, the graphic novel, and some end slide work), our lead writer, John Gonzalez, and I did kick around thoughts on Caesar’s role and characterization as well as the structure of his presentation when the player meets him, and I shared the backstory on a number of Legion references in dialogues that herald back to tribes we developed way back when for the first iteration of Van Buren (Hangdogs, Twisted Hairs). I always felt that Caesar’s goals were going to die once he ran out of lands to conquer — he had a war machine, and once it stopped rolling, the other societal problems his faction had at their core would surface and they would tear themselves apart… or simply decay until they became the prey of someone else.

In addition, we did want to include a Legion companion, Ulysses, who would be tolerant of Legion behavior and provide an internal perspective on it, but he got moved to the DLCs as an antagonist. My feelings on the Legion were summed up both with him, and also in a conversation tangent with Rose of Sharon Cassidy, where she inadvertently peppers her anger at the Legion with a slow, grudging respect for some of the other benefits they bring when they conquer an area (protecting caravans, uniting tribes, keeping the peace). In many ways, the Legion is better adapted for the wastes than many of the other factions.

"the Legion is better adapted for the wastes than many of the other factions" and "the Legion is better adapted for the wastes than many of the other factions" could've been great selling points to the player, if only the Legion hadn't been turned into such a cartoony evil faction.
Sawyer turned the misogyny and slavery aspects to such ridiculous levels that it became the Chaotic Evil/"fuck shit up" faction rather than something grey that could eventually grow on the player. I don't know if MCA's version would've been grey either, but at least he would've emphasized their strengths, as they are part of his own feelings regarding the Legion.

 

[Infinitron]

Those selling points are also related to you by Caesar himself.

I think Josh Sawyer is an unlikely person to accuse of making anything cartoony.

 

[Fairfax]

Those selling points are also related to you by Caesar himself.

Of course. Doesn't change a thing, though. I liked Caesar as a character, but the faction is still unredeemable if the player wants to do something resembling "the right thing".

I think Josh Sawyer is an unlikely person to accuse of making anything cartoony.

I'm not sure, but I think he admitted they went overboard with the misogyny. Roguey might have the exact quote.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer turned the misogyny and slavery aspects to such ridiculous levels

He did no such thing.

He does agree that some writers made a few Legionnaires too casually sexist. He can't edit everything.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Caesar's Legion as presented in the game are:
1. Opposed to advanced technology
2. Opposed to drugs/alcohol
3. Opposed to prostitution
4. Opposed to gambling
5. Misogynist
6. Pro-slavery, to the point of enslaving many of those they conquer
7. Enjoy torturing and killing
8. Strictly hierarchical, being a military organization
9. Are stated in dialogue with Cass and Raul to have established order and peace for the non-Legion population in the areas they control, but this isn't actually shown in the game
10. Dialogue with Caesar makes it clear that his construction of the Legion was a response to the circumstances of unifying primitive tribes in Arizona, which are quite different from the circumstances of the New Vegas region much less the NCR proper
11. Caesar aims to transform the Legion into a proper state after he conquers New Vegas, but it is implied that the Legion will dissolve through in-fighting shortly after his death, and Caesar is an old man even if the Courier saves him from his brain tumor

Due to the fact that the player never actually experiences life under the control of the Legion, as opposed to the Legion's actions while at war with a territory they aim to conquer, there's little to recommend the Legion to the player-character unless the PC happens to share the Legion's predilections (support for hierarchy, torture, execution, slavery; dislike for technology, drugs/alcohol, prostitution, gambling, women). Even if the PC wants to prevent the NCR and Mr. House from securing the Mojave, there's always the independent New Vegas option.

 

[Excidium II]

He does agree that some writers made a few Legionnaires too casually sexist

 

[Fairfax]

The worst part is that the Legion is supposed to be based on books about Ancient Rome, and Sawyer is a history major, which makes their inaccurate ideology completely stupid.

Sawyer turned the misogyny and slavery aspects to such ridiculous levels

He did no such thing.

He does agree that some writers made a few Legionnaires too casually sexist. He can't edit everything.

He's responsible for the Legion's design in the game and he was the director. They're not casually sexist, women are sub-humans as far as the Legion is concerned, so yes, it's his fault.

 

[Excidium II]

^
At least that they got right for a post-apocalyptic setting.

 

[Roguey]

The worst part is that the Legion is supposed to be based on books about Ancient Rome, and Sawyer is a history major, which makes their inaccurate ideology completely stupid.

The Legion wasn't supposed to be historically accurate.

He's responsible for the Legion's design in the game and he was the director. They're not casually sexist, women are sub-humans as far as the Legion is concerned, so yes, it's his fault.

I've gone over this before ad nauseum. Everyone is treated terribly in the Legion. Men who are able to fight are slave soldiers who serve until they die. Men who aren't able to fight are slave laborers who work until they die. Women who are able to give birth are forced into breeding until they are unable to give birth. Then they're slave laborers until they die.

Caesar doesn't do this because he hates women or views them as inferior to men; he does it because all he is concerned with is the end goal: more legionaries. The legionaries are also a means to an end: conquering NCR. Conquering NCR is also a means to an end: reforming it and producing a new quasi-Roman empire.

If it doesn't convince you, that's fine, but I've already made this argument and don't see the point in continuing it.

He was replying to you wasn't he

 

[Fairfax]

The worst part is that the Legion is supposed to be based on books about Ancient Rome, and Sawyer is a history major, which makes their inaccurate ideology completely stupid.

The Legion wasn't supposed to be historically accurate.

He's responsible for the Legion's design in the game and he was the director. They're not casually sexist, women are sub-humans as far as the Legion is concerned, so yes, it's his fault.

I've gone over this before ad nauseum. Everyone is treated terribly in the Legion. Men who are able to fight are slave soldiers who serve until they die. Men who aren't able to fight are slave laborers who work until they die. Women who are able to give birth are forced into breeding until they are unable to give birth. Then they're slave laborers until they die.

Caesar doesn't do this because he hates women or views them as inferior to men; he does it because all he is concerned with is the end goal: more legionaries. The legionaries are also a means to an end: conquering NCR. Conquering NCR is also a means to an end: reforming it and producing a new quasi-Roman empire.

If it doesn't convince you, that's fine, but I've already made this argument and don't see the point in continuing it.

He was replying to you wasn't he

It should at least resemble Rome besides the names and the clothes, but maybe that's just me.
And no, I only asked him one question, and he never answered it.

 

[Roguey]

It should at least resemble Rome besides the names and the clothes, but maybe that's just me.

And it will, after he conquers NCR.

So Caesar survives his brain tumor, beats the NCR in their home territory while managing a huge empire, and then goes "just kidding guys! I actually want to build a completely different society." Still a terrible choice reserved for evil gimmick runs.

Caesar says exactly what he's doing and why he's doing it if you talk to him.

Caesar's Legion should be a choice reserved for any player using a character that fits. If you don't want to make a CL-oriented character, don't make one. If you don't want to make a character who sells Bumble into slavery in F3, don't make one.

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe Obsidian should have made an Arizona DLC.

(I'm guessing they weren't given the budget to put many NPCs in their DLCs, hence why they all take place in various old world ruins and wildernesses)

 

[vivec]

Roguey

And it will, after he conquers NCR.

How.

No matter how the story unfolds, Caesar's legion will never resemble Rome. To think of Rome as a Military Hegemony alone is missing the points on so many levels that I can't give a crap to explain it. Rome, first and foremost, was a cultural force, militaristic later. Its Bureaucracy was the chief reason that it actually built up and managed the legions and the later empire. In fact, if anything, the NCR resembles ROME in its glory days with the onset of a possible decline.

 

[Excidium II]

The legion is nothing more than an army, and considering the Courier is an one-man army, I never really saw the point in them.

If you wanna be evul just kill 'em all.

 

[vivec]

The legion is nothing more than an army, and considering the Courier is an one-man army, I never really saw the point in them.

If you wanna be evul just kill 'em all.

This is a good point. The legion resembles Alaric and the Goths more than the Roman Legions. What a travesty.

To really make the comparison accurate, General Oliver should have been Caesar: A returning general from the wars of conquest in the barbaric regions, having lost the faith in democracy due to its bureaucratic disaster. He has the drilled, veteran troops while NCR has funds and green troops and then you are to choose between the Hegemony that will arrive from Oliver or the status quo of NCR.

Shit would have been so cash. We could have had Brutus and everything.


Oh well. But we had Sawyer instead to stab us in the back.

 

[Roguey]

No matter how the story unfolds, Caesar's legion will never resemble Rome. To think of Rome as a Military Hegemony alone is missing the points on so many levels that I can't give a crap to explain it. Rome, first and foremost, was a cultural force, militaristic later. Its Bureaucracy was the chief reason that it actually built up and managed the legions and the latter empire. In fact, if anything, the NCR resembles ROME in its glory days with the onset of a possible decline.

Caesar already believes that the NCR government IS a neo-Roman Republic. He wants to take control of it because he believes that, like Julius Caesar, he can cause a change for (in his opinion) the better.

As to whether or not Caesar has the numbers to ultimately win (and hold power) in the long run, that's unknown.

If a person says, "I don't like Caesar," I wonder if that person doesn't like Caesar as a character or doesn't like Caesar as person. If you don't like Caesar as a person, that's not surprising. He's pretty unlikable for a variety of reasons. He is a domineering tyrant who runs things in a way where he is effectively unchallenged, and it produces a narrow vision in him. No one in the Legion *debates* Caesar, and he has ruled through brutality for so long that it's now just the way things work in Legion territory. Ultimately, Caesar is an educated tyrant living in an echo chamber of his own creation. Despite having a long-term vision for the future, he is quite short-sighted. If you were expecting Caesar to be grey and found him to be black, I'd argue that he's still grey, but he's intentionally a very dark grey. Tamerlane and Charles Taylor also had reasons for doing the things they did, but it doesn't make the things they did any less terrible.

 

[vivec]

I fail to see what is being implied here. Either Sawyer does not want to use the analogy of Caesar and Rome anywhere beyond the nomenclature or he is so lost in his rear end that he does not realize that none of this makes sense. For a more reasonable version of the idea see my previous post.