Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: The Banner Saga, 2D Turn-Based Strategy RPG

[felipepepe]

I'm basing on the fact that if a publisher was involved they would have the exact same issues that you point out, but with only a fraction of the money and no creative control. Perhaps they woudn't even be able to make the game.

Besides, not only they asked for $100K to make the game, a number that should consider unexpected expenses unless they are retards, and now have 600k, but even if they only manage to sell like 50k copies after launch (VERY modest number, games like Dungeon Defender sold more than 250k) at $10 (same kickstarter price), they would have 500k. Let's say that taxes and middle-mens take insane 300k of them (development expenses are already paid by kickstarter money). They still would have 200k, twice the ammount they initially asked, to make chapter 2. And if the game is actually good, chapter 2 will sell a lot more, not only due positive feedback, but because +12k backers will only get the chapter 1 for their pledge.

Bottom line: Risk always exists in any business, but they had a golden chance that no other industry will ever had: They had nothing, got 6x the money they needed to start their business and with absolutly no strings attached, interest rates or share of profit. So yeah, if they get tight after that, it's absolutly due their fault.

EDIT: And wanting to include a full orchestra on a indie game is exactly the kind of dumb money managedment that may get them "tight", not taxes, middle-man or helping other developers with fucking 5%.

 

[Chewbot]

Wow guys, so much hate! Is this all about console ports? We've always compared The Banner Saga to FFTactics and Shining Force; consoles are a great platform for turn based strategy games. Believe it or not a lot of people asked us to port to consoles, so we made it a stretch goal. If you pledged before 600% you helped us fund the PC and Mac version and if you pledged between 600-650% you've helped us port to consoles and add more content. Frankly, we don't feel good about some backers demanding that we cater only to them and everybody else can go fuck themselves. Is that how you really feel? It certainly doesn't encourage developers to come here, be nice and chat. Do you think we're your enemy or something? Still, sincerely, if you feel betrayed for reasons we don't understand, we're sorry to see you go and hope you'll forgive us for not meeting your expectations. The game is the same as when we did the interview and we're working our hardest to make it the best we can. Best of luck to everyone!

 

[LeStryfe79]

Wow guys, so much hate! Is this all about console ports? We've always compared The Banner Saga to FFTactics and Shining Force; consoles are a great platform for turn based strategy games. Believe it or not a lot of people asked us to port to consoles, so we made it a stretch goal. If you pledged before 600% you helped us fund the PC and Mac version and if you pledged between 600-650% you've helped us port to consoles and add more content. Frankly, we don't feel good about some backers demanding that we cater only to them and everybody else can go fuck themselves. Is that how you really feel? It certainly doesn't encourage developers to come here, be nice and chat. Do you think we're your enemy or something? Still, sincerely, if you feel betrayed for reasons we don't understand, we're sorry to see you go and hope you'll forgive us for not meeting your expectations. The game is the same as when we did the interview and we're working our hardest to make it the best we can. Best of luck to everyone!

 

[Metro]

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

Chewbot: I'd advise against overestimating the amount of hate on the Codex. It's always there towards everything (to various degrees) and never pleasant to read, but it shouldn't distract you from the substance: most people are not complaining for complaining's sake or because they want to have the game all for themselves and begrudge the console gamers their slice of happiness. They are worried because they feel that the game could be compromised by striving to make it work on consoles (consolization of controls and UI being a prime example); they have been burned in the past by products where the PC version felt like an afterthought; they have seen developers "streamline" whatever the original vision was to make their games appeal to the casual crowd.

I'm not worried enough to pull my pledge, but if you look at all of this and the unfortunate timing (correct me if I'm wrong, but console ports were never mentioned as a possibility before -- cf. this with no one complaining about Mac, Linux or tablet versions) maybe you'll see how it can leave something of a bitter taste in some people's mouths. I'd say the reasonable thing here would be addressing the issues, if briefly, rather than dismiss them as hate talk.

 

[Metro]

If I had my choice of ensuring world peace and curing cancer or ridding the world of consoles and console gamers.... I would choose the latter.

 

[Brayko]

Chewbot

You do realize that the modern consolization trend started by Bioware and perfected by Bethesda has led to disasters for intelligent PC gamers, correct? Hence the "hate" towards this news. FF tactics and Shining Force were released long before the decline.

 

[hoverdog]

but consoles are cancer - so shouldn't curing it get rid of them too?

 

[felipepepe]

Chewbot Consider the inevitable compromise that a late-revealed console port will cause,
with the megalomanic move of wasting money going for a full orchestra on a indie game,
and playing dumb/making poor excuses on the kick it foward concept and you have the reasons why I removed my pledge.

 

[Chewbot]

Thanks Marquess. You guys like brutal honesty: we love turn based strategy on consoles, and on PCs. We've never claimed otherwise. We want everyone to enjoy it. Two weeks ago we announced a port to iPad, which is a more difficult and potentially more distracting move than a port to consoles. We asked for support to make a PC and Mac version and met the goal and since then we've been completely transparent about everything that we're doing with the extra funds. We've answered hundreds of emails, written dozens of interviews and talked on lots of forums in good will, never once lying about our intentions.

Is the game going to have PC-based UI and console-based UI? Yes. Which came first? PC.

Why did we go with a full orchestra? Austin Wintory is extremely excited to work on the game, and lots of people want us to do it. We have budgeted a reasonable amount for music and made a stretch goal to do an orchestra if the backers wanted it. They did. If we didn't hit the stretch goal it would have been fine.

Was this a bait and switch? No, we announced that we'd like to port to consoles since day 1. From the front page on Kickstarter: "Additional funding allows us to give you: porting to more devices. Our first release will be on PC and Mac, but funding would allow us to convert the game to iOS, the Kindle Fire, consoles like XBLA and PSN and maybe even portable gaming devices like the Vita."

I can see how you may have expected the game to be just like a game you have nostalgia for and be for a specific crowd like Jagged Alliance or Dominions, and the way the market has changed to abandon you while supporting others can be infuriating. All I can say is that we had no intention of misleading you, and saying "I really feel you can go fuck yourself, Chewie. You are a shitass little con man...", well, that's straight up hate talk. What I keep hearing is "well, that's just what RPG codex is like". Why? What developer is going to support this? I came here to talk with you about the game, not be called a piece of shit. I'm really sad it ended up this way. All the best.

 

[Infinitron]

It certainly doesn't encourage developers to come here, be nice and chat.

As long as they're lurking and reading, then we're doing our jobs.

Look, we may have been a bit harsh but - man, do you realize there are probably very good reasons why such eminent figures as Tim Schafer and Brian Fargo have sworn off consoles for their projects?
Those things are quite evidently a pain in the ass to work with. And you don't have as much money as those guys. Don't bite off more than you can chew.

Come on, try it, it's free!

And yes, I really feel you can go fuck yourself, Chewie. You are a shitass little con man and when your game fails I hope you wind up working the streets. We don't need another casual apple store game and I didn't support your game to get that. I'll be withdrawing my pledge as soon as I get home and can log on to KS.

sup drog

 

[Roguey]

"What developer is going to support this attitude?"

Swen Vincke from Larian, Chris Avellone, George Ziets, Anthony Davis, and possibly others from Obsidian (current and former), unknown CD Projekt developers (they made a reference in a video), others I'm forgetting or not aware about...

 

[Metro]

Don't forget Brian Fargo!

 

[Aeschylus]

Chewbot

Hyperbole and large amounts of sound and fury are just something that are inevitable whenever you're interacting with passionate fans in a 'niche' gaming community. This is true of RPGs, Adventure games, Strategy games, what have you. Respect to you for thickening your skin and wading into the pit.

That said, I feel it is worth your time to consider why this sort of thing might be upsetting to people. The personal attacks and rage that are endemic here make it hard to get at the actual issues, but those issues do exist.

One of them stems from your 6th update to the Kickstarter, where you stated

Let's be up front here: the Kickstarter campaign is officially for PC and Mac, and we can't change that now.

This sort of statement gives people who are contributing a certain idea about the direction and philosophy behind the project. I personally don't have an issue with you deciding to port to consoles if that is what you want to do, and you feel it will not detract from the depth of the game. I do have an issue with the messaging shift at the 11th hour. In a Kickstarter campaign, people are going to give you money because it is something they are passionate about, or want to see made. This passion is a benefit, but also tricky to deal with. As you can see around here, it goes up in flames easily at what people see as sudden shifts.

Whether this is reasonable or not, it's part of what you signed up for going for crowd funding. If people think they are giving their money for one thing, but then find out they are backing something they did not expect (in this case, fees for porting to consoles), they're going to be upset. Still, you certainly don't deserve any personal attacks directed your way, and you seem to honestly be trying to make the best game you can. Props to you for that, and for sticking to what you believe, even if I may not share that belief entirely.

 

[Tigranes]

If you pledged before 600% you helped us fund the PC and Mac version and if you pledged between 600-650% you've helped us port to consoles and add more content. Frankly, we don't feel good about some backers demanding that we cater only to them and everybody else can go fuck themselves. Is that how you really feel?

I agree with the first part, which is why I pledged early, considered raising it, but now I will neither raise it or put it down. In the end you guys make your decisions and we choose to support it or not. I do want to (and have) voiced my disagreement with your decisions to prioritise things like ports and an orchestra with the extra content, since I find that disappointing, but it's not a cause for hate or anything. (Aeschylus also put it well above.)

Anyway, any topic on the Codex will always have at least one moron that thinks the purpose of the Codex is to call people shitass con men, and it'd be nice if we didn't have that, but that's part of the hands-off moderation policy that is also one of Codex's positives.

 

[felipepepe]

We have budgeted a reasonable amount for music and made a stretch goal to do an orchestra if the backers wanted it. They did. If we don't hit the stretch goal it would have been fine.

Why do you believe that that money came from people excited with the orchestra?

You said it yourselves on the KS page, when you posted the update the money had already reached 600k, in no way that means that people approve this, even less that they would prefer having an orchestra than vital stuff like equipable itens & runes, as you said yourself at this very thread:

Will units be able to equip items/runes/doodads/whatever to modify their stats/grant new/different attacks/abilities?
If so, will every unit be able to do this or only some? Can you give a concrete, statted item that might be in-game?

We are very interested in doing this. It was a feature that we had to cut due to scope reasons but the Kickstarter campaign may change that. Don't hold me to it, it's very much up in the air right now.

You did not say a word about this anymore, so I have to believe that the game units won't have a full inventory like FFTactics or Shinning Force, yet it will have a full orchestra, something that neither those games had nor needed. A shallower gameplay in exchange for an orchestra it's something I bet none of your backers would approve.

 

[Aeschylus]

We have budgeted a reasonable amount for music and made a stretch goal to do an orchestra if the backers wanted it. They did. If we don't hit the stretch goal it would have been fine.

Why do you believe that that money came from people excited with the orchestra?

You said it yourselves on the KS page, when you posted the update the money had already reached 600k, in no way that means that people approve this, even less that they would prefer having an orchestra than vital stuff like equipable itens & runes, as you said yourself at this very thread:

To be fair, reading the comments on the Kickstarter there do seem to be a pretty reasonable number of people who are excited about the soundtrack, with some people saying they "Came here for Austin Wintory". And they did announce his participation before reaching, or even announcing the 600k goal. Whether or not it's the best thing to focus on production-wise, it does seem to be working for them.

 

[felipepepe]

To be fair, reading the comments on the Kickstarter there do seem to be a pretty reasonable number of people who are excited about the soundtrack, with some people saying they "Came here for Austin Wintory". And they did announce his participation before reaching, or even announcing the 600k goal. Whether or not it's the best thing to focus on production-wise, it does seem to be working for them.

His participation was announced 5 days before the 600k, and it didn't imply the orchestra. I also like the guy and would like to hear his work for this game, but saying that backers loved having him on the project is very different from saying that the only reason you reached 600k is because people want an orchestra.

How could people "vote" otherwise? Removing or downgrading their pledge until the developers see it's a bad idea, then they can return the funds? It's not a pratical nor logical system, just because you reached a goal doesn't mean that people approve it.

 

[Infinitron]

I think the orchestra stuff is okay, personally. It's cool when a game tries to do something stylistically different. And the Codex can appreciate good music in a game.

Really, the console stuff just had to be phrased a bit differently and all this wouldn't have happened. ("We will consider porting the game to consoles later on if we have enough funds. Every dollar helps, so keep those pledges coming, but no promises.")

 

[Stinger]

It also shouldn't have been announced a day or two before funding ended. That already felt scammy by mentioning it at the last second.

 

[Jaesun]

It also shouldn't have been announced a day or two before funding ended. That already felt scammy by mentioning it at the last second.

Did you even read his reply?

 

[Metro]

The castle level stuff should probably have come first~

 

[Stinger]

My mistake, he edited that in later, didn't notice it.

 

[Ulminati]

All I can say is that we had no intention of misleading you, and saying "I really feel you can go fuck yourself, Chewie. You are a shitass little con man...", well, that's straight up hate talk. What I keep hearing is "well, that's just what RPG codex is like". Why? What developer is going to support this? I came here to talk with you about the game, not be called a piece of shit. I'm really sad it ended up this way. All the best.

If you look at that posters join date, you'll see it's a troll account. We got a bunch of them over here, this one's probably just Drog again. Comes with the territory.

You need thick skin to post on the codex. It is not family friendly, but some of us think it's a refreshing change from other forums where people aren't allowed to have an opinion unless they wrap it in enough nicities to not offend anyone. Just ignore the people who spout nothing constructive and enjoy honest feedback from the rest.

The whole console port thing does leave a sour taste in my mouth, as I have seen way too many games with a lot of potential fall flat on their face because they tried to work around pleasing a console crowd and the resolution/controller limitations imposed by the platform. I'm somewhat ambivalent about the whole orchestra thing. I can see how people can get excited about the idea, but pretty much every gamer I know turns off the music after an hour or so no matter how big an orchestra worked on it. the player-run cities are as far as I understand something intended fo rmultiplayer only. But it should have been signalled far more clearly from the start. A lot of people got hooked on the whole idea of a travelling caravan, and suddenly talking about cities sounds like a 180 degree turn.

So yeah. I understand why you made the promises you did, but I was kinda hoping you wouldn't make them. They are going to be a fairly large money sink that will add nothing to the experience I pledged for (orchestra, since I turn off music) or potentially negatively affect gameplay depth and ui (consolization). A lot of the rage - and the codex always rages, it is in its nature - stems from the fact that we pledged to a project, it reaches 500% funding and the announcements of what the additional money is going towards (to us) look like pointless window dressings. I think just about everyone here would have preferred every single cent going towards addiional programmers, designers and possibly an artist or two - all working towards making the actual gameplay deeper rather than more "cinematic".

 

[felipepepe]

The castle level stuff should probably have come first~

Exactly, I'm not against an orchestra, but I'm against the orchestra comming first then gameplay. And from what was announced, all the extra money since the Codex interview went to music and console ports, important gameplay issues that were left in the air, like units inventory, armors and weapons were never addressed. Instead of becomming deeper and better, the game seem to be turning out just more atractive.