Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: The Banner Saga, 2D Turn-Based Strategy RPG

[Infinitron]

Keep it coming guys...but I doubt we're going to see Chewbot ever again.

 

[Ulminati]

The castle level stuff should probably have come first~

Exactly, I'm not against an orchestra, but I'm against the orchestra comming first then gameplay. And from what was announced, all the extra money since the Codex interview went to music and console ports, important gameplay issues that were left in the air, like units inventory, armors and weapons were never addressed. Instead of becomming deeper and better, the game seem to be turning out just more atractive.

felipepe sums it up better than I could.

The reason so many people around this place rant about "the decline" is because of a worrying trend that has been going on in recent years. As games try to be more like movies, the interactivity, depth and amount of content in the game drops. (As it is more expensive to produce). And as games try to appeal to a broader audience (especially the large hordes of teenagers with consoles), gameplay suffers as they do not care for the oft-times brutal difficulty that we all wax nostalgic about in older games around here. I am well aware it has been repeatedly stated that a console port will not affect the PC gameplay in the slightest. But I find it difficult to beleive features will not get cut/changed in order to intregrate easier into a post-release console port. I sincerely believe that an attempt to port to consoles will have negative impact on game design decisions, even before work on the port itself commences.

I did decrease my pledge on kickstarter from $60 for poster+shipping to $10 for the base game. It was not an easy decision, since I have no doubt you are genuinely trying to bring about a great game. But sadly, the last update with stretch goals makes me think that perhaps my idea of a great game is not the same as yours. I'm happy you made your goals with plenty to spare and I certainly hope you will pull everything off and deliver an awesome product at the end of the development cycle. If you do deliver a product that proves my fears unfounded, I'll give you my word as a gentleman I'll go out and buy subsequent episodes on day 1. But since the focus on what to spend money on past your original 100k goal has been features I have no desire for I can't justify the extra size of my donation. While I continue to wish you all the best, I would like you to think of my reduced pledge as a $50 vote AGAINST console ports entirely.

 

[almondblight]

Keep it coming guys...but I doubt we're going to see Chewbot ever again.

Eh, it's up to him, he really shouldn't be judging the Codex by what one poster posts. I mean, picking out the worst post out of pages of (somewhat) decent criticism and saying "What I keep hearing is "well, that's just what RPG codex is like". Why? What developer is going to support this? I came here to talk with you about the game, not be called a piece of shit." is bothersome. It should be obvious to anyone reading this thread that almost no poster, and no regulars, are like that, but "that's what the Codex is like" means sometimes idiots join in the fray.

Anyway...

I think you guys really don't understand what the whole castle thing is. It's for multiplayer (which has been around from the beginning), so it's not going to mess with the single-player campaign's nomadic elements.

Also, I don't get the whole "you can use your own money to port it, but you can't use KS money!" Eh, all that money is going into/coming out of the same place. Sure, I guess the developers could use their own money to port it, and they give themselves more money as part of their "salary", but in the end it's going to even out.

Also, I'm not really sure how good an idea it is to expand the scope of the game a lot, especially for a small team (one reason to be worried about console ports). I don't know how well these guys are at managing teams. It's not as simple as "Well, we got an extra 200k, let's higher 3 people and make the game twice as good!" Knotanalt brought up some decent concerns about outsourcing the work, and we have to also include that in hiring new people. There's only so much extra money can do for a small team.

In general I dislike Kickstarter goals, and think they're part of, or a remnant of, the decline. Fargo seemed to start the trend, and I suppose developers think that people need that to donate more. FTL didn't have that if my memory serves me right, and they managed to do pretty well. I think developers have become too tainted by developers, believing - even after all this Kickstarting success - that users are greedy and need some kind of advertising hook in order to part with their money. I hope this trend dies out, but I suspect "goals" will be with us for a long time.

In the end I'd like to see just two Kickstarter goals - get enough to make a good game, and if you get more money than your vision needs, use it to fund your next game. Indies are always living on the edge, and I'd much rather a good developer have some extra padding just in case than blow it on extra bells and whistles because they needed some reward for the next goal.

 

[Tigranes]

What I say is no reflection on the codex.

Good.

 

[deus101]

Keep it coming guys...but I doubt we're going to see Chewbot ever again.

I think developers have become too tainted by developers, believing - even after all this Kickstarting success - that users are greedy and need some kind of advertising hook in order to part with their money.

Which just goes to show that the value of codexian bohemianism in all this...I actually want kickstarters or similar direct investments like this to work.
Medium sized productions is the one thing that disappeared in this industry, and such projects have much better chance to have their priorities in order then Blockbuster looking for boardroom dividends through multimillion sales.
And people don't throw donations at a pitch unless it is something which the massmarket have failed to provide time and again.

If they move away from that and become to greedy(might sound like some anti-business entitlement or whatnot, but alot of good enterprises and endevours fucked up what good they had by trying to fix ideas to expand) then people shouldn't be blined by devotion to IP nor the developers.
They should be rude and obnoxious!

I haven't really donated to this project, but i was really interested and still am.

Will most likely pickup a copy, because frankly...I can't see how 2D and turnbased is in danger of having to be retrofitted to accommodate a controller.

But i completely agree that money shouldn't be wasted on it, just make the damn iPad, android or *nix versions. I'm sure you wouldnt be making the offer if you didn't already have a platform agnostic framwork to begin with.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I can't believe you numpties are listening to "loadsa money" bryce.

fucking tinfoil hats up in this bitch.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

most people are not complaining for complaining's sake or because they want to have the game all for themselves and begrudge the console gamers their slice of happiness..

lol, bollocks.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

you kickstarted a pc/mac game (which you're gonna get) and all the console derps are now jumping in to kickstart their console port...which judging by how the numbers are going, is probably gonna get you your castle mode as well.

Is it because they said the words turn based? There's plenty of turn based console games already. Games like Final Fantasy Tactics are a dime a dozen. The new XCom is turn based console game, too. Looks like an abomination.

Look at the battlemap screenshot they posted, the panorama shot lifted from patapon...jagged alliance this game is not. if you're expecting hard core turn based strategy you're gonna be sorely dissapointed, this game looks as casual as it comes. And that's precisely why i didn't back it...not for me. Probably.

Yeah, exactly. You are full of shit, just like when you argued about art style for 9 hours to defend indie games like dungeons of dredmore and angry birds just because it has the word indie in it then lyingly claimed you liked both fallouts just as much. Uh huh. Your opinion means jack and shit.

I ain't the one nerd raging and having a meltdown over an INDIE GAME...and indie game based entirely around perfunctory cell animation at that.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I'll say one thing though, they should have probably made a second entirely seperate fund for the console ports, (is that even possible?) if only to keep the "shitstorm" to a minimum.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have to tread a fine line with this kickstarter thing. Fargo's "social" snafu, shadowruns DLC fuckup, that republic iOS game which is just fucking DOA completely. Some things just aren't kosher with the kickstarter crowd it seems.

 

[kazgar]

I'll say one thing though, they should have probably made a second entirely seperate fund for the console ports, (is that even possible?) if only to keep the "shitstorm" to a minimum.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have to tread a fine line with this kickstarter thing. Fargo's "social" snafu, shadowruns DLC fuckup, that republic iOS game which is just fucking DOA completely. Some things just aren't kosher with the kickstarter crowd it seems.

Except the 3 i know of (dunno about Republic IOS one) have all been funded far beyond the amount asked. the rest is just internet butthurt, and comes with the territory, though should probably be treated as such.

In further news, Banner Saga's at 660k, so ports are most likely in, and the KS should make the castle MP tier.

 

[Brayko]

Some things just aren't kosher with the kickstarter crowd it seems.

And that's the way it should stay.

 

[Stabwound]

First of all, I am surprised at the love this particular game got from the Codex in the first place. While I personally am a fan of the strategy RPG genre, it's not exactly the type of game this place is known to love.

The complaints about console ports of this game are because of this: many, many people see kickstarter as a means for developers to make great games without tainting them with the decline: publisher interference, DLC, consolization, etc. I don't know about others, but I do not want to put my vote (jewgold) toward these things. I hardly ever buy games anymore, but I gladly donated to Wasteland 2, because it seemed like a vote toward everything that goes against the decline.

Consolization is never a good thing. You can't name one game that was better on the PC because it was released on consoles; you can only name games that are worse off because of it. The CRPG genre was literally ruined by consolization. There is no positive connotation whatsoever to saying that a game is going to be ported to consoles, to anyone but people that want to play it on a console.

I do have to give props to Chewbot for responding. Yes, there is trolling and some straight up insults thrown around, but this place gets a reputation for being cranky, hateful assholes and it's really not deserved. I think any developer would be wise to read through this place, especially discussions on their games, and get some good advice even if it's harsh. I have no doubt that many developers read this place but don't take part: Brian Fargo, for one, has quoted and referenced threads on Wasteland 2 more than once.

 

[deus101]

♪ You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave! ♫

Chewbots a goon, I'm sure he can soak up a few shitposters, now, you guys were pretty harsh....but fair in codex standards.
Our loathing of consoles are born out of pragmatism....alongisde with a tons of other buzzwords and empty promises, and in this case people even put up donation with some pretty high hopes.

Which is why codex is so prestige, were're not yes men....he might have appriciated love and support, but hyperbole and cussing makes for much better input!
Just prove us wrong!

 

[sgc_meltdown]

bros you can't expect kickstarter to be all about the pc platform and hardcore genres, sometimes it's for multiplatform accessible games that need kickstartering because they're in a non-accessible genre, like turn-based strategy with 2D graphics
believe it or not turn-based strategy flash games are pretty popular so people still play these things, I think they'll play a good looking professional big budget one with rpg stuffies even more

don't be so self-centered and have every game be about what you want or what people want to pay for, and if gamers want to pay to fund extra platform porting with 50k well I'm sure it's not our place to say others can't have that

just like we can't say hey, I don't want you to have that hardcore tactical shooter, or wear atheist shoes http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1497254033/atheist-shoes

it is a shame that some codexers don't want a multiplatform turn based strategy rpg from ex-bioware developers but all we can do now is vote with our wallets, or maybe go play that king arthur game

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Why are people so angry about this? The game was never advertised as anything more than a Shining Force derivative with a Viking theme on top of it and simple grid-based gameplay that would have nice production values for an indie game. That's why you are calling this developer a traitor? Don't make me laugh. Nothing was misrepresented.

This came from consoles in the first place, and I don't see how it would ruin the interface since these games never have a very complex interface, nor do they have a complex game system. It has already been done on PC successfully, take Gorky 17. The Codex is really, really reaching with its hate for this one.

If you liked Shining Force, this is for you. If you don't, just back Xenonauts instead.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

maybe the developer is just more than a little confused at how he seems to be doing great here with the tough codex crowd and suddenly after he announces platform porting goal he's a goatfucker using your money to fuck other animals

bros perhaps the developer just had his development priorities laid out more differently than you thought all along

you gotta spend that money to make money, so what do you think makes more money, more numbers stuff or a compelling soundtrack like bastion that people go viral bout on facebook
of course, because who the fuck ever goes viral marketing on reddit about inventory systems or other mechanics? Does that stuff even make good youtube footage?

so that means more people like the soundtrack more, and that means the game is being liked and it is a good game because it is liked

QED

 

[commie]

Keep it coming guys...but I doubt we're going to see Chewbot ever again.

Fuck the dirty little snake oil salesman anyway...Shit episodic game, shit idea, shit looking poor man's Bakshi animation, shit console port, shit casual crap. He can fuck off back to the iPhone...

 

[Executer]

I never put in for this kickstarter, haven't been following details and have nothing invested in this personally so tell me if I'm way off any time.

From what I've read, when this project was launched console ports weren't mentioned? Now at the 11th hour the developer announces console ports which will take a not insignificant amount of kickstarter funds, and may directly or indirectly affect gameplay content and UI.

Developer than plays Bioware style PR move on the codex, providing a timely reminder of the corporate culture he's come from... am I way off here?

 

[Executer]

In fairness Gaider got worse over time, I remember when someone on the NWN Bioboards told him he couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag and he took that criticism on board.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Is the game going to have PC-based UI and console-based UI? Yes. Which came first? PC.

What about full support for pointing devices (mouse)?

 

[Achilles]

He is a Codexer. I don't know who though. Who is a fervently anti-console poster from Greece?

It's not me, but it is quite possible that he is a codexer. We do have a number of greek posters here.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Chewbot

I respect your attitude, coming to the Codex and all. Please don't take offense from 1 or 1 people who called you names. I can hardly remember a day where someone didn't call me an asshole or retard here on this forum We mostly do this because it's fun.

But now to the real issue. And a LOT is NOT WELL here.

Wow guys, so much hate! Is this all about console ports? We've always compared The Banner Saga to FFTactics and Shining Force; consoles are a great platform for turn based strategy games. Believe it or not a lot of people asked us to port to consoles, so we made it a stretch goal. If you pledged before 600% you helped us fund the PC and Mac version and if you pledged between 600-650% you've helped us port to consoles and add more content. Frankly, we don't feel good about some backers demanding that we cater only to them and everybody else can go fuck themselves. Is that how you really feel? It certainly doesn't encourage developers to come here, be nice and chat. Do you think we're your enemy or something? Still, sincerely, if you feel betrayed for reasons we don't understand, we're sorry to see you go and hope you'll forgive us for not meeting your expectations. The game is the same as when we did the interview and we're working our hardest to make it the best we can. Best of luck to everyone!

You are going to make a casual game, thanks that you have made this clear now once and for all.

I will not make the mistake of speaking for all of RPGCodex, but I am not supporting any kickstarters for casual games.

Not one cent of my money will go for them.

Banner Saga initially got RPGCodex' attention because you have really extraordinary athmospheric artwork to show (which is not seen in many games these days), and because many nice things were said like "PC/Mac first" "the player must take real risks" turn-based combat, etc. These things made it sound like you were not going to make a casual game.

This was quite obviously a misunderstanding, and it lead a number of people to back your project erroneously.

You will have to deal with them now and in the future. They may even come to your garage and demand their money back, better always keep some cash ready for them.

 

[DwarvenFood]

Has anyone one pointed out yet that they are getting six times the money needed for making one episode of planned three and still stick to the episodes formula?
How about getting the whole game?

They kind of did address this,

Early on in the campaign we changed the prizes so that anyone who pledges $50 and up will receive all three parts of the trilogy: the full game! It's our thanks for helping us achieve our goal so quickly.

But I don't really feel like defending them.


EDIT: I see now that it had already been pointed out earlier.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Chewbot

This goes to you and all other junior kickstarters that got more money than they have ever seen in their life.

Kickstarter gave you too much money! It already went to your head. They should have given you the 100,000$ you wanted, and not 1 cent more.

It just took four weeks for three cool guys with a bold plan to believe they are now becoming internet millionaires. Wake up.

Just four weeks ago (!) you came to kickstarter with a modest goal of 100k and a really likeable little project, and were being given a whopping 650k$ instead, by the League of nice people of the Internet.

I guess these people wanted to support three cool guys making cool games in a garage, and you fit that model perfectly.

People thought, cool, lets give them over 6 times what they need, and every one will be happy! With 650,000$ these three guys can work comfortably for 2-3 years and even pay for a lot of extra stuff they need.

Now, your first big mistake was taking for granted that all that money was to be used for anything but your own expenses, and started contracting out the work. But your team already consists of 2 artists and 1 programmer. Why hire more people?

That's not indie development. That's big, risky business. And it's shit, if you do it in your first project. Since you have no experience with that kind of business, you are not entitled to use advanced money that way, but only AFTER you have made your first successful game. You are not Steve Jobs yet by any stretch. You are not even Brian Fargo. You are three guys on probation period! You might still make it and become successful software developers, but in my opinion you're already moving in the wrong direction.

I initially wanted to support your project, but I absolutely don't like the mode of thinking you showed after you got a ton of extra money, 550,000$ in all! People often betray their real character in such moments of joy.

Instead of dividing the money by three chapters (650,000 / 3 == 200% per chapter), you instead multiply by three (3 chapters times 650,000 = close to 2,000,000$), and feel a bit like Steve Jobs.

I know you will not admit it. But deep inside you know that I am right

After the kickstarter success, your first move should have been to put all three chapters in one, and stick to your initial plan, i.e. three guys in a garage.
Before budgeting money for an orchestra. Before console ports. Before hiring staff, although you already have a team that can put 6-9 man years into the project.

I hope this is not going to become the future of kickstarter. That guys move from garage developers to well off junior chiefs in four weeks, and think it's all right.

 

[Excommunicator]

I'm sure you will all be happy to know that according to kicktraq ( http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga/ ), with that big announcement they attracted far more backers and more money than in any single day before that, even with the Codex pulling out. They now have a core audience that is very contrary to what the Codex represents. It is for the best that we do not contribute to the pre-funding of this game now. Consider a purchase post-release if you must

 

[Burning Bridges]

I'm sure you will all be happy to know that according to kicktraq ( http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga/ ), with that big announcement they attracted far more backers and more money than in any single day before that, even with the Codex pulling out. They now have a core audience that is very contrary to what the Codex represents. It is for the best that we do not contribute to the pre-funding of this game now. Consider a purchase post-release if you must

People in general are gullible and forgetful.

 

[Infinitron]

From SA: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3469966&pagenumber=11#post402804430

Occupation posted:

I mean seriously Chewbot why'd you even give these fuckfaces the time of day? They're not even worth the olive branch you extended (which got spat on and people wishing your funding would go down due to the superior might of the Codex

and/or you guys being homeless and destitute).​

Well, I try to be a pretty nice guy to pretty much everybody.

I got some very nice emails from people on codex who sort of apologized and offered some very reasonable feedback on the campaign. I think it's pretty clear we might not be making their kind of game, which is ok. No point in making a big deal out of it. It seems inevitable that just mentioning console (even though we had always talked about porting to a console) was going to irrevocably break some kind of trust between us. I had no idea. Overall, a learning experience.

I vaguely remember that NMA controversy about not being able to kill children in Fallout. Good stuff! I look forward to the crazed demands for viking rape!

 

[Infinitron]

Hey, who the fuck is Xerophyte? http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...erid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=10#post402791618

Yeah, I don't think anything short of Tim Cain descending from the heavens in a chariot of fire, with a host of angels bearing the holy gifts of Arcanum 2 and Fallout 3 (the Bethesda games never happened!) could actually make the Codex happy at this point. I definitely wouldn't read anything into their rabid anti-console knee-jerking or read their forums in general.

[ Disclaimer: I was one of the original Codex site staff. Primary contributions: coming up with the name RPG Codex (runner up: RPG Elysium), producing a terribly written Grandia II review. I was young, ok? Don't judge me...

]

Rex?

 

[Burning Bridges]

"We had access to too much money, too much equipment, and little by little we went insane" - Kickstarter developer