Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: The Banner Saga, 2D Turn-Based Strategy RPG

[Infinitron]

So glad I didn't back this. Biowhores gonna whore.

Actually developers gonna publishers.
And they are not the only ones, Both Fargo and Weisman proposed port to other platforms as a goal, something that shouldn't really be a concern for customers, I can understand as a way to attract more pledges from people that otherwise wouldn't pledge, but selling it as a wonderful feature is typical marketing speech, convince the customers that what is good for your business is good for them too.

Sure, but Fargo also said stuff like this:

One of the (more common) questions I am asked is whether we'll support console and I believe it to be unlikely. It is imperative that we deliver the core PC experience that the fans are expecting here and I want to avoid any elements that could distract us. The console interface is quite different when you consider the input device and proximity to the screen whereas the Mac and Linux are pretty much identical to that of the "PC". We will consider a tablet version due to the similarity of the screen and interface but even on that we need to do a bit more research.

 

[Kz3r0]

So glad I didn't back this. Biowhores gonna whore.

Actually developers gonna publishers.
And they are not the only ones, Both Fargo and Weisman proposed port to other platforms as a goal, something that shouldn't really be a concern for customers, I can understand as a way to attract more pledges from people that otherwise wouldn't pledge, but selling it as a wonderful feature is typical marketing speech, convince the customers that what is good for your business is good for them too.

Sure, but Fargo also said stuff like this:

One of the (more common) questions I am asked is whether we'll support console and I believe it to be unlikely. It is imperative that we deliver the core PC experience that the fans are expecting here and I want to avoid any elements that could distract us. The console interface is quite different when you consider the input device and proximity to the screen whereas the Mac and Linux are pretty much identical to that of the "PC". We will consider a tablet version due to the similarity of the screen and interface but even on that we need to do a bit more research.

It was a broad comparison, obviously there are differences, but don't forget the whole social thingie and the screeching halt to the pledges that ensued.

 

[Infinitron]

the screeching halt to the pledges that ensued.

Did this actually happen? I'm not sure there was ever a measurable "screeching halt". The pledges were already slow during that period.

 

[Johannes]

Actually I think the whole listening to the audience thing should ideally be done BEFORE you have your fundraising started. So that at the point where you're taking pledges people know exactly what they're getting, and won't end up with surprises like this. Having 1 and only 1 goalpost is the most honest way to go about it - if we reach X or well over X, you'll get what's promised and no more. If you make extra that's either less loan taken or more hookers, but you're guaranteed the quality no matter what the end sum'll be.
But well, promising a bit of something for everyone and hyping how majestic things will get with just a bit more cash will probably net you more, so people will keep doing that.

Even Fargo was kinda intentionally ambiguous on many things, like the amount and exact form of combat, so as not to piss anyone off and keep everyone hoping that they'll get their own best case scenario.

If you were to hold a charity, where the exact target of it was only determined only during and after the fundraising drive was over, would anyone support that? We're collecting money for a good cause, drop us a message as to what you think is the most worthy goal! We listen to the fans whether they want to support poor children in Mosambik or in Sudan!

 

[Burning Bridges]

With one of our white hopes burst already very early, we'd quickly need other kickstarters to appear. Imo two very likely candidates are Dead State and Xenonauts.

Still, this is a serious setback to my kickstarter enthusiasm. 2 weeks ago I thought there could be dozens of projects until summer, now I am backing two with not much else in sight.

This farce proves that it will pay to look very closely, unless you want to finance the decline to take over kickstarter.

 

[mindx2]

Who is this guy who posted on their Update #9 comments section? He should be one of us... unless he already is o_O ???????

Vasilis Foukarakis about 4 hours ago
For those telling everyone that going to console will increase the funding thus result in a better game: No, it will result in a worse game and don't tell me that you haven't seen this before.
It's called "consolization" and it's a gaming menace.
Let me explain it for those that haven't noticed it before.
Yes, they are going to make more money.
Yes, they will have more funds.
BUT
A vast percentage of console gamers are used to certain "features" in their games that they play which do not fit with the usual PC game. They are also used to more casual, more dumbed down and so called "streamlined" gameplay. This usually translate to easy game difficulty, no deep strategic options and worthless mechanics like Quick Time Events or twitch gameplay.
Using part of the fan funding to pay Sony and Microsoft rights is NOT a good move and appealing to the console masses is going to bring along the whole baggage including a lot of people asking and wanting the aforementioned "features" above.
This will almost surely lead to making a worse game because the devs will have to listen to those people too whining {like I do right now but I'd take a "more quality" whine over a "more quantity/sales" whine any day} about "I want this and that" and "why it's so hard" and "I don't get it, make it easier" and so on.
And we all know what happened when the gaming industry started to make all games appeal to the hordes of casual console gamer masses.
So I know that some people don't really care, I know that some haven't even noticed that gaming is in a worse state than what it was 5-10 years ago because they are impressed by pretty lights {advances in graphical fidelity that is} but I'd prefer a game made for PC gamers, appealing to PC gamers and all its funding spend on making the game better than a game which has to compromise its integrity to appeal to console gamers and paying royalties to Sony and Microsoft.
As I've already posted, I lowered my pledge and I plan to increase it back up to what it was only if the console porting gets right at the end of the stretch goal spectrum or gets pushed for an after-release thing to do.

I, we gamers have been burned too many times the last years because of the goal of the industry in making games appeal to everyone which logically means lowering standards to the common denominator {aka simplicity and lighter gameplay}. Fan funding is a great chance to stop this practice and if Kickstarter projects start to deviate again into getting multi-platform then the exact same thing will happen.
Fan funding is a great step forward in gaming and I'd like it to avoid following the path that the gaming industry is treading on right now. It needs to find its own distinctive part in the gaming world. Going multi-platform and casual in order to generate sales is NOT distinctive, it's just another way of making the same games that the usual publishers make, with all the bad stuff that follows.

 

[Excommunicator]

He is a Codexer. I don't know who though. Who is a fervently anti-console poster from Greece?

 

[Johannes]

Well, it's not like you have to make stereotypically consolized games for consoles. But porting for them costs a lot of backer money no matter the content of the game.

 

[Kz3r0]

Well, it's not like you have to make stereotypically consolized games for consoles. But porting for them costs a lot of backer money no matter the content of the game.

The worst part is that they prioritized the porting over game content.

 

[Aeschylus]

Well, here is their response to the kerfuffle. Make of it what you will. I suppose it comes down to whether or not you believe them.

Sorry we didn't answer a portion of your question yesterday. There is not even one area of the game that we believe will be watered down or made simpler by us porting to XBLA or PSN. We've been stating all along that we hope to make the game available to as many people on as many platforms as we can (already stated that it's going to Linux and iPad). We made this stretch goal as a new support tier for those interested in having the game come to their platform so they can enjoy it as well. For all the people who already supported the game because they already have it on their platform there is going to be no loss. You are getting the exact game we have promised and are working hard to make as cool as we can. Remember...we will be working on these ports after chapter 1 is complete. Right now we're laser focused on PC/Mac. Any more funding we get right now, since orchestra has been achieved, will be going into the final level of content for PC/Mac and as a great bonus we will also be able to port the game to more human beings.
I really think we may be arguing on the same side of the fence and it's a miscommunication on our part.
Thanks.
-Arnie

 

[Jaesun]

I'll just wait for the codex review.

 

[Kitako]

Of course the Codex won't believe them because fuck the system.

we will be working on these ports after chapter 1 is complete

This is enough for me to derage.

 

[zeitgeist]

MAYBE that's because they have to give 5% of their PROFIT AFTER RELEASING THE GAME...not 11 pity donations of who know how much. Money at this momment should be spent on your game, unless you are just donating only 10-15 dollars, if so fuck you.

But isn't this profit you speak of usually reduced to nothing or close to it through the magic of creative accounting?

 

[Brayko]

He is a Codexer. I don't know who though. Who is a fervently anti-console poster from Greece?

Alexandros?

 

[felipepepe]

MAYBE that's because they have to give 5% of their PROFIT AFTER RELEASING THE GAME...not 11 pity donations of who know how much. Money at this momment should be spent on your game, unless you are just donating only 10-15 dollars, if so fuck you.

But isn't this profit you speak of usually reduced to nothing or close to it through the magic of creative accounting?

Even if their magic accounting says that only profited 50k from Banner Saga, 5% would ammount to $2,500. How much do you think they gave to those 11 projects? Probably just the minimmun $10-15 each, they won't give lots of money because they need it now to make their game.

I don't agree about the kick it forward thing though. Imo it's entirely their business if they want to join it or not.

They probably wound't be able to make this game with a publisher, and even if they did, how much would they get? 20% of the magically vanished profit? Since 100% of the profit is going to them this time, not wanting to give meager 5% to other projects is a very asshole atitude. It's a very small world man, you can't just ride on other success and them say no when it's your time to help.

Besides, their excuse is horrible. Either they didn't even read the kick it foward, or are just playing dumb and pissing on a very good idea by Mr. Fargo.

 

[Temaperacl]

I don't agree about the kick it forward thing though. Imo it's entirely their business if they want to join it or not.

They probably wound't be able to make this game with a publisher, and even if they did, how much would they get? 20% of the magically vanished profit? Since 100% of the profit is going to them this time, not wanting to give meager 5% to other projects is a very asshole atitude. It's a very small world man, you can't just ride on other success and them say no when it's your time to help.

I don't know their exact financial situation, but given that they are a new business, I assume they had all the standard worries of people starting a new business, especially of those who have had to leave their previous job to do so. Given that assumption, not wanting to dedicate 5% to other projects when they don't know how much they will be making and will have to be living and making the next chapter / next game off the proceeds (unless they get crowd funding for the second chapter as well) is not an "asshole attitude". There is absolutely nothing about crowdfunding that places an obligation on them to contribute back into the crowdfunding pool. If they want to, as they seem to indicate, that is great. If they want to wait until they are on more firm financial footing before committing to anything, that is also completely reasonable. When things are tight 5% can be a huge amount.

Besides, their excuse is horrible. Either they didn't even read the kick it foward, or are just playing dumb and pissing on a very good idea by Mr. Fargo.

Their last post on the matter is pretty badly phrased. It is also completely accurate - Kick it forward is based on the honor system - there is nothing stopping someone from posting a link to there on their page and then putting nothing back in from the profits when it finally comes out or just putting a few minimal pledges to look like they are contributing. You have as much guarantee that Stoic will be putting money back into other KS projects (their word) as you have for people participating in Kick it Forward (their word). The only difference is that the Kick it Forwarders are placing a specific amount on it.

 

[Tigranes]

Meh. I was excited about the game but now I'm considering whether to keep the pledge at $10 or drop it altogether. An orchestra is overkill for a game like this, and I doubt it will really be worth the money - it gives the impression of them getting too excited about all the extra money. If they were going to try and port the game anyway, fine, but I don't want my $ contributing to ports when it could go to a better game, either.

I don't think it's so terrible for them not to KIF, though - I already think KS projects are tied down by a lot of different costs, like Amazon 5%, all the costs of prizes (they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for Double Fine), and of course all the backers who won't need to actually buy a copy in the end. I wouldn't be surprised to see the developers end up with low profit margins after release, which means they're still in a position where they need to go for yet another kickstarter, or a publisher, in order to stay afloat. It's kind of stupid of them to imply they're 'better' or 'OK' because they back projects already, but meh.

 

[Kz3r0]

Has anyone one pointed out yet that they are getting six times the money needed for making one episode of planned three and still stick to the episodes formula?
How about getting the whole game?

 

[Brayko]

Double Fine Adventure had 87,142 backers, a game like that could sell, I don't know 400k+ copies? Still pulling in good dough considering the fact that there are no publishers involved whatsoever. However, I do think KIF was a bit pre-mature and that Fargo created it when he was drunk off his impressive financial success while his his Kickstarter was still going. Probably something he should have waited on. It is a good gesture though.

 

[Johannes]

Has anyone one pointed out yet that they are getting six times the money needed for making one episode of planned three and still stick to the episodes formula?
How about getting the whole game?

I don't see that as a problem. It'd be just another thing to break from the mold they've marketed from the get-go.

Doing it split into parts lets them release something faster (estimated delivery november 2012?), they can change and balance the formula between games more, and 50$ or more backers get all games for that sum anyway.

 

[felipepepe]

If you consider just 320k copies sold after launch at $20, that's 6.4M, more than twice the money he got now from Kickstarter. And 5% is 320k, they can fully fund Tortured Hearts lot's of projects with that. But I trully believe it will a lot more.

Same logic goes for Banner Saga, even if they only sell 100k copies at $15, that's 1.5M, 3 times what they have now and fucking 15 times what they asked for. And as Kz3r0 reminded, they are making 3 episodes and most backers will only get one for their support. So yeah, I still think that giving 5% to fellow developers be able to experience the same freedom from publishers that allowed your project to happen is not asking much.

However, I do think KIF was a bit pre-mature and that Fargo created it when he was drunk off his impressive financial success while his his Kickstarter was still going. Probably something he should have waited on. It is a good gesture though.

It was a fantastic gesture. The guy struggled through decades trying to make a game without publishers fucking things up, and now that he can he wants to help more developers to do the same. Besides, it's a very small world. If KIF really works, Fargo will put his 5% and help numerous projects with massive dontaions. And if Fargo ever do a Kickstarter again, succesfull kickstarters will be glad to help him back.

When things are tight 5% can be a huge amount.

They had nothing, asked for money, got it, made a game and got 100% of the profit. If things get tight after that, is purely due horrible administration or releasing a shitty game...

 

[Johannes]

Kicking it forward is meh (except for PR to get people to donate). Sure you can share money around, to other developers, but equally well you could use it to fund your own next game - hire an extra dev to your team is not inferior to giving money to someone making another game.

What I care about is the actual game they make, not about how they spend the profits - give it to charity, buy LSD, waste it on making a big flop of a sequel, as long as the game made with backer money is good and according to promises that's all fine.

 

[felipepepe]

Sure you can share money around, to other developers, but equally well you could use it to fund your own next game - hire an extra dev to your team is not inferior to giving money to someone making another game.

Not quite, 1 extra developer to Wasteland 2 or Double Fine can only improve the game, while 1 extra developer at a smaller studio can mean the difference between releasing or not a game. Besides, if all the money ins centered around few projects, if those projects fail the studio closes and money stops flowing around.

 

[Johannes]

A smaller developer like, say, Stoic?

 

[Temaperacl]

When things are tight 5% can be a huge amount.

They had nothing, asked for money, got it, made a game and got 100% of the profit. If things get tight after that, is purely due horrible administration or releasing a shitty game...

Seriously? Assuming they put all of the KS money towards the game and business expenses during the development and release, then their position at release is so much better than it is now that there is no way for things to be tight?

The only reserve they would have is pre-order-type sales and personal reserves (or investments from personal reserves based on their business type), we don't know what kind of debt-load and ongoing expenses they already may have, and they have only the income from game sales (Which is adjusted by the fact that 18k of people who might otherwise have bought the game already have a copy) and they have to use that to finance the next game (Which they are giving 10k of away as well) and the only way for things to be tight is gross mismanagement or a bad game?

Looking forward as they would be, instead of from the side like we are, the risks they see are going to look even bigger from their standpoint- they always do when you are the people who are going to have to deal with them. And not taking those risks into account is an easy way to drive a business into the ground.

Anyhow, if there is no real risk of things being tight for them post-release, you must know more about their situation than I do, so please enlighten me - assuming they have a decent game, what sort of sales will they be seeing at what sort of pricepoint with how much taken out by any distribution middlemen? How will that compare to the expenses they will need for the second title and any ongoing expenses they have? What is the tax implications of that and their assets their company holds in the tax district (don't forget city, county, state, and federal) they operate in? What unexpected events are going to occur that could have an impact on their cash flow or cash reserve? If you can't answer these, then what are you basing your assertion that things wouldn't be tight on?