Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

[Grunker]

Manipulation at best. The requirements are rarely steep enough to railroad your character, and good D&D builds can have four or five classes.

Once you get into epic levels, sure. Most prestige classes can only taken around level 7-10 or so. It takes about 15 levels to get and develop your prestige class, and up to that point it's 100% on-rails. If you want to take two, you have to target that outcome from level 1 with no deviations.

(Most of the time anyway. There are a few prestige classes with relatively lenient requirements, but most of them just aren't.)

This is plain untrue. Having played multiple pure combat/dungeon crawling campaigns and GMed even more, most D&D builds using all supplements will have 3 classes before level 10, and two of those can be prestige classes no problem. Before level 12-13 you will have your fourth no problem. Of course some builds are much more narrow, but that's a choice. Basically, in 3.5, you choose classes much in the same way you choose talents in PoE, except some require you to pay a feat or skill-cost.

Also as Pathfinder incentivices staying in-class you have just as many single-classed as very multiclassed characters there.

But saying that prestige classes railroad characters displays lacking knowledge of how they work in practice, sorry.

 

[Grunker]

No fantasy RPG I've ever known can match the asset variety in D&D 3.5. It's insane and most of it comes from sheer volume of splatbooks. Of course that also means it's unbalanced as all fuck but you can't have it all.

 

[Roguey]

That doesn't contradict what I've said. Plenty of freeform systems have requirements for things that you gotta fulfill with your character build. All Fallouts had that, for example.

Not to the extent that prestige classes do, that is "you need to be this race, this alignment, have these skills at these levels, and these feats (which sometimes requires having these attributes at at least these scores)."

 

[Stompa]

Once you get into epic levels, sure

Very funny joke. 12 level builds have no trouble getting two PRCs at least, you can easily have those 3-4 by 20. Hell, the absolute earliest you can take one is at level 6, that's plenty. Qualifying isn't as much of a hassle as you make it out to be,since in practice you nearly always either aim to get those feats (Power Attack is a common sight among them for example) or getting them is easy enough (human or halfling subrace, couple of levels of fighter for feats, skill reqirements are trivial, same with stat requirements).

 

[Grunker]

That doesn't contradict what I've said. Plenty of freeform systems have requirements for things that you gotta fulfill with your character build. All Fallouts had that, for example.

Not to the extent that prestige classes do, that is "you need to be this race, this alignment, have these skills at these levels, and these feats (which sometimes requires having these attributes at at least these scores)."

While your (Josh') critcism of requirements are true, what you're both missing is how fun it can be to make the "puzzle" of a build align. "Almost there, hmm, can I do this, argh, need 1 feat here, wait, no race is wrong, but if I do this, hmm... wait, if I change it around like this I can do this and this meaning, no wait, I'm just short, but maybe if I..." etc.

I've spent so many awesome hours on couches and around tables with splatbooks, character sheets and notebooks piling up everywhere, me and my mates agonizing over stuff like that. It's incredibly fun. And that depends on a web of requirements and assets.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah, I don't get how 3E would railroad you by giving you more options, ie, Prestige Classes. Sure, the Wizard-But-Better is like a gravity void for a lot of characters but there are a lot of things to consider here.

One is the sheer amount of options permitted by the TCG approach to splatbook writing. If you have a certain character archetype in mind all you have to do is hunt the webs for your very special snowflake and odds are someone already managed to break the game for you. This serves to counter the apparent imbalance of the game -- since almost everything can be made efficient with enough creativity and referencing. There is of course a great deal of fun in making a subpar build work. That is I'd argue the central aspect of a Game of roleplaying that is mostly focused on combat.

Second is the fact that this is a pen and paper system. Modding can be done on the fly. Someone in a game I was in wanted to play some sort of holy/angelic sorceress and she felt the options avaiable were all mechanically subpar. The DM just ruled some cosmetic side effects to her normal spells. Like when casting Fly on herself causes the appearance of angel wings. A similar approach can be done to Prestige Classes and only a truly anal or mistrusting DM would always rule them out. Arguably a PC adaptation should be flexible and I'm positive certain changes were made to class requirements in both NwNs.

Finally, even if you feel constrained when playing by the rules its still your choice. I played Pillars as a Priest of Wael and though my trusty quarterstaff was more effective than I expected it to be, I was always aware that any other class could do my less priestly roles better than myself. The Wizard is better at wielding implements, the Warriors were better at wielding a two hander in general and, of course Priests can't wield the soulbound staff from WM -- btw thank you Sawyer. The other priests therefore felt much better realized than Wael's. Magran is built for a swashbuckler with a rifle throwing fire at people. Skaen is built as a lesser rogue. Wael is sort of meh. That didn't ruin the character for me. Mostly because every class has a basic power level that you can't tarnish with attributes or talents. But also because I can live with my choices.

If Pillars is allowed to be less than perfectly balanced so can 3E. And neither game ends up railroading you. That's on you.

As for AD&D. Well, I think some of the same points apply. Even if the classes themselves work as very rigid templates, you have to consider that the system was mostly designed for PnP. Meaning that Fighters weren't auto attack machines so much expected to be creative with their bodies. This means we have a failure of content in AD&D games that don't introduce maneuvers like grapple and other interactions with the environment.

Furthermore, let's not pretend that the IE games didn't have build diversity. Sure, they weren't as focused on it as PoE was. But FFS there is a decades old tradition of discussing the Kensai/Mage vis other multis and duals. I really liked the system where you can decide wether you want to be a full classed character, 50/50 or, in the case of duals, 75/25. Just look at the upcoming Deadfire. Its multiclassing is basically an adaptation of the one from AD&D to Pillars' system. It won't have the quirky experience tables to ensure a power split, but it will have its own 'power level' system to do so.

 

[Grumpy Grognard]

Meh, I'm out.

Pools of Radiance turn-based combat > any RTWP infinity/infinity-esque engine combat, which is really just dumbed-down tripe.

*searches RPG Codex*

... there's a disturbing lack of Gold Box threads. I'm going to go read all of them.

 

[Delterius]

Hah, dork. Nevermind RTwP, PnP is better than Pools of Radiance will ever be.

 

[Prime Junta]

TBH I've been discussing D&D3 prestige classes mostly based on the implementation in NWN and NWN2. Only one guy in my D&D group was really into character building so that kind of stuff didn't figure all that centrally in my PnP campaigns. So I'll take your word for it Grunker and stop bitching about D&D3 being on-rails.

But NWN2 is.

 

[Grunker]

I think that's unfair to NWN2 (game is so shit in every other department it seems unfair to criticize the one thing it's gets completely, fantastically right), but to the extent it's true it's due to lacking the huge number of assets in the base system. What I mean is that even though NWN2 has a fuckton, you are technically correct that there are few available combinations, relatively, once you factor in reqs. NWN2 would probably be a better game if there were no requirements for pres classes at all.

Though with Kaedrin's Prestige pack, honestly I'm having a hard time seeing any game coming close to the build diversity of NWN2.

Regardless of level, if NWN2 is on rails with its massive amounts of customization, there are no RPGs that aren't.

Hah, dork. Nevermind RTwP, PnP is better than Pools of Radiance will ever be.

Stole my joke! Though I would have worded it "Pool of Radiance peasant, go hide in the corner while P&P master race finish their debate" or somesuch

 

[ERYFKRAD]

But NWN2 is.

On-rails what, char building? plot? Still on about the OC if plot?

EDIT: Bah nevermind. ninja'd.

 

[Delterius]

The fun in NwN ends at character creation. :D

 

[Grunker]

So true lol

 

[Jasede]

That doesn't contradict what I've said. Plenty of freeform systems have requirements for things that you gotta fulfill with your character build. All Fallouts had that, for example.

Not to the extent that prestige classes do, that is "you need to be this race, this alignment, have these skills at these levels, and these feats (which sometimes requires having these attributes at at least these scores)."

Limitations breed creativity. I've known pure necromancer pale masters, melee beast pale masters, monk pale master ac sluts...

I think you don't know enough about d and d.

 

[Grunker]

I think you don't know enough about d and d.

pure necromancer pale masters

 

[FreeKaner]

That doesn't contradict what I've said. Plenty of freeform systems have requirements for things that you gotta fulfill with your character build. All Fallouts had that, for example.

Not to the extent that prestige classes do, that is "you need to be this race, this alignment, have these skills at these levels, and these feats (which sometimes requires having these attributes at at least these scores)."

Limitations breed creativity.

Only if tools and choices are available.

 

[Prime Junta]

Regardless of level, if NWN2 is on rails with its massive amounts of customization, there are no RPGs that aren't.

I think we may be talking past one another to an extent.

I recently fired it up again and decided to make the most munchkiny wizard I could think of, a Red Wizard - Arcane Scholar combination. I made that decision when creating the character. I dunno but it sure /felt/ like it was entirely on-rails from there on out, until partway through MotB when I hit level 7 in Arcane Scholar.

My experiences have been similar with other builds I've done there. I basically pick my prestige class target(s) at character creation, and from there on out all my level-up choices are determined by that choice. So yeah the menu to choose from is huge -- there's a crazy range of class/prestige class combos you can build on -- but once you've made that choice, that's pretty much it until you're well past level 20: your job is just to click the right buttons so you meet the requirements.

 

[Grunker]

PJ, I think your thinking here is flawed. Firstly, you pick three classes, but claim you're on rails... who picked those classes for you, the game? Secondly, those classes are on top of a feat selection that totally shames Pillars of Eternity (NWN2 IMO easily has the most diverse character system of any RPG). Thirdly, and this is just for my own sake: RED WIZARD ARCANE SCHOLAR WTF THESE GAMES ARE EASY ENOUGH ALREADY LOL

Anyway you chose two of the most feat-requiring pres-classes in the game, maybe that's why feel shoe-horned..?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Regardless of level, if NWN2 is on rails with its massive amounts of customization, there are no RPGs that aren't.

I think we may be talking past one another to an extent.

I recently fired it up again and decided to make the most munchkiny wizard I could think of, a Red Wizard - Arcane Scholar combination. I made that decision when creating the character. I dunno but it sure /felt/ like it was entirely on-rails from there on out, until partway through MotB when I hit level 7 in Arcane Scholar.

My experiences have been similar with other builds I've done there. I basically pick my prestige class target(s) at character creation, and from there on out all my level-up choices are determined by that choice. So yeah the menu to choose from is huge -- there's a crazy range of class/prestige class combos you can build on -- but once you've made that choice, that's pretty much it until you're well past level 20: your job is just to click the right buttons so you meet the requirements.

Here's your problem: There is no barbarian in your class selection.

 

[Prime Junta]

PJ, I think your thinking here is flawed. Firstly, you pick three classes, but claim you're on rails... who picked those classes for you, the game?

I did. But that's not the point I'm making. What I'm sayin' is, I made the only meaningful choices regarding my build at character creation: from there on out, it's just colouring inside the lines. With Pillars-style builds, it's more free-form: I do pick an objective (e.g. "melee ranger") and then figure out what the best item, stat, feat, and ability combination is for that objective. I set the objective, instead of picking an objective offered for me by the designers.

(As to red wizard/arcane scholar, I just want to nuke some shit, yo.)

 

[Prime Junta]

Here's your problem: There is no barbarian in your class selection.

I did play through the thing with a scythe-wielding fighter/barb/frenzied berserker once. It was a leetle more free-form, true.

 

[Azarkon]

PJ, I think your thinking here is flawed. Firstly, you pick three classes, but claim you're on rails... who picked those classes for you, the game?

I did. But that's not the point I'm making. What I'm sayin' is, I made the only meaningful choices regarding my build at character creation: from there on out, it's just colouring inside the lines. With Pillars-style builds, it's more free-form: I do pick an objective (e.g. "melee ranger") and then figure out what the best item, stat, feat, and ability combination is for that objective. I set the objective, instead of picking an objective offered for me by the designers.

(As to red wizard/arcane scholar, I just want to nuke some shit, yo.)

How do you manage to build a character without figuring out what the best items, stats, feats, and ability combinations are for that character in Neverwinter Nights...? What are you actually even talking about? You take feats and stats as you level up in Neverwinter Nights, exactly the same as in Pillars of Eternity, and you decide what items and ability combinations to use, exactly as in Pillars of Eternity. I thought you were talking about how ad hoc the character building process is in Pillars of Eternity versus Baldur's Gate 2, but now it's obvious you're just confused. The general design of the character progression systems in Neverwinter Nights and Pillars of Eternity is virtually identical, with the single most important difference being that Neverwinter Nights supports multi-classing while Pillars of Eternity does not.

 

[Prime Junta]

There is NO difference between Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and Pillars of Eternity when it comes to how the character building process generally works.

I still maintain there is. In NWN2, you pick a class/prestige class combination to go for, and then you colour inside the lines. In Pillars, you pick a general character concept limited mostly by your imagination, and then figure out the best way to build that. NWN2 tells you exactly what skills and feats you need to take to get the combo you want; in Pillars, you discover the synergies and the tactics that make the most of them. It's the difference between a colouring book and a blank canvas.

 

[Azarkon]

There is NO difference between Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and Pillars of Eternity when it comes to how the character building process generally works.

I still maintain there is. In NWN2, you pick a class/prestige class combination to go for, and then you colour inside the lines. In Pillars, you pick a general character concept limited mostly by your imagination, and then figure out the best way to build that. NWN2 tells you exactly what skills and feats you need to take to get the combo you want; in Pillars, you discover the synergies and the tactics that make the most of them. It's the difference between a colouring book and a blank canvas.

You pick a class in Pillars of Eternity. You do realize this, yes? The class is the coloring book. You can't get away from using wizard spells when you pick a wizard and you can't get away from using chants when you pick a chanter.

In Neverwinter Nights, you can actually pick a fighter at level 1 and then switch to being a mage at level 5, suddenly getting access to a completely different set of mechanics in the form of spells. You can't do this in Pillars of Eternity. By your own standard, Pillars of Eternity is a vastly inferior system.

 

[Ulfhednar]

There is NO difference between Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and Pillars of Eternity when it comes to how the character building process generally works.

I still maintain there is. In NWN2, you pick a class/prestige class combination to go for, and then you colour inside the lines. In Pillars, you pick a general character concept limited mostly by your imagination, and then figure out the best way to build that. NWN2 tells you exactly what skills and feats you need to take to get the combo you want; in Pillars, you discover the synergies and the tactics that make the most of them. It's the difference between a colouring book and a blank canvas.

You pick a class in Pillars of Eternity. You do realize this, yes? The class is the coloring book. You can't get away from using wizard spells when you pick a wizard and you can't get away from using chants when you pick a chanter.

In Neverwinter Nights, you can actually pick a fighter at level 1 and then switch to being a mage at level 5, suddenly getting access to a completely different set of mechanics in the form of spells. You can't do this in Pillars of Eternity. By your own standard, Pillars of Eternity is a vastly inferior system.

But there are no prerequisites for that choice in Pillars. And while we don't know much about multiclassing and subclassing in Pillars 2 yet, I would be surprised if any of those combinations had prerequisites attached.