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Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

Serious_Business

Best Poster on the Codex
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
3,957
Location
Frown Town
So... "Piles of Shit", eh? Instead of "Pillars of Eternity". I see...

*foot on table*

*lights up that cigar*

I understand now.

*spits on the ground*

You're gonna clear that shit up right now

So, as I was saying. It's all about Balders Gate. You heard about that game?

Old... school... design!

*throws the fucking table*

What the fuck are you even reading!
 

Hell March

Educated
Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Messages
64
In 3E if you havent mapped your character build before you named your character you are doing it wrong. Hilariously wrong in fact, you will more than likely end up with a useless gimp. The system was designed with a lot of bad options that will ruin your character, in fact almost every feat, every skill and every class in the game is a trap choice, this also includes around 90% of the prestiges.
This is the shit that traumatized sawyer so bad that he ended up doing a 360º, and ended up being equally bad for different reasons.

Feats and skills (as systems) aren't traps because they are things that everyone gets and are all equally meaningless with the exception of magic feats + Use Magic Device skill. Furthermore, it is very unlikely you will ever make a choice that will "ruin" a character, outside of doing something like playing a Bard without Perform which no decent DM would ever allow you to do. You can of course make tons of bad choices and end up with something suboptimal, but it is almost impossible to screw up a character so bad that they are significantly worse than their bare chasis. Meanwhile, you can do this in 5E, by picking flatout inferior archetypes like the Berserker Barbarian or the Champion Fighter.

The core problem with 3E is that the difference between the classes in power is unbelievably wide. It is so wide that there is probably no game in existence with it's level of imbalance. The issue with feats and skills are not that you are trapped by taking them, it's that relying on them for a character build (exception, Use Magic Device) is a waste of time because spellcasting is the only class feature that provides a significant increase in power. "Ruining your character" is not the problem, having a character concept that is unplayable from the start is the problem.

If you are trying to optimize your character concept then you are indeed doing something incredibly wrong by not mapping out a build, but this is no different than 5E or really any game ever made.

This is false, you can make a paladin/wizard/rogue and still end up being good, not as strong as a pure class but fairly flexible and with tons of valid options in any given encounter. You can suddenly at level 10 as a cleric take a level in barbarian and get something out of that choice, your character wasnt ruined, you just opened another venue for the character in exchange for closing a different one.

But that's not what I said, I said that characters are fundamentally complete at character creation in 5E. It is true that some effective multiclass dips can greatly increase a character's effectiveness, but since not focusing on a core concept has been a bad idea since the concept of classes have ever existed, you will still be leveling one class over all others, meaning your build is defined by the class features you determine at level 3ish. It's like a World of Warcraft subclass.

Every class is like this, subclasses, which for example as a wizard you pick at level 1, as a fighter at level 3, grant different features until level 17 or so. But a ton of characters can take just the first level of wizard for the level 1 class feature, or the first level of cleric for the first level features and pick a different class to advance. This will not really diminish the character, it will simply open new options at the cost of not opening a different door.

Multiclassing has no significant diminishment on character in 3E either, unless you're playing a Druid because a druid's base chasis is totally nuts.

This is not true tho. In PoE your choices do have consequences, you can end up with a shit character thats a pain to play, or you can end up with one that can solo the entire campaign.
The problem with PoEs system does not lay in the importance of the choices in any given build.

I've never played a solo-run but I have played Path of the Damned and I can assure you that outside of making flatout retarded choices like maxing perception and dumping constitution, you pretty much cannot screw up a character in PoE. The game is so tactically vapid that as long as you put good armor on your tank and have some sort of of hard cc, you will win every time. I remember picking several feats for the Druid companion that I later learned he had absolutely no use for, and gave him really garbage equipment, he was still effective. Likewise my main character was a chanter, generally considered to be the worst class in the game, I had terrible Resolve and it still never mattered.

I'm sure you can somehow game the system and get insanely powerful characters but none of it matters when the game is so vapid, simplistic and meaningless.

This isnt true either. As a wizard you can pick up every spell in the game as you adventure anyway.

I was really only being kind when I said that, it barely matters at all.
 
Last edited:

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,957
Feats and skills (as systems) aren't traps because they are things that everyone gets and are all equally meaningless with the exception of magic feats + Use Magic Device skill.
Wrong.

Furthermore, it is very unlikely you will ever make a choice that will "ruin" a character, outside of doing something like playing a Bard without Perform which no decent DM would ever allow you to do. You can of course make tons of bad choices and end up with something suboptimal, but it is almost impossible to screw up a character so bad that they are significantly worse than their bare chasis.
Wrong. Playing a monk in a party of clerics means you are playing a broken class that simply does not work in a group with characters that even with bad attributes outclass you in every way, before we take into account their casting.

Meanwhile, you can do this in 5E, by picking flatout inferior archetypes like the Berserker Barbarian or the Champion Fighter.
This is nonsense. Champion fighter gives you twice as many criticals instead of giving you maneuvers or low level spells. Berserker gives you extra attacks attack instead of giving you resistance to elemental damage. In the first case if you are lucky it can be the better choice in almost every fight. In the second case it means that going berserker instead of bear totem can be the better choice for entire campaigns if there isnt much magic involved.
Yes on some encounters they are worse, but they can still do just as well as any other under most circumstances, and even better under specific ones.

The core problem with 3E is that the difference between the classes in power is unbelievably wide. It is so wide that there is probably no game in existence with it's level of imbalance.
Thats enough to make it unplayable on any level outside of single player.

The issue with feats and skills are not that you are trapped by taking them, it's that relying on them for a character build (exception, Use Magic Device) is a waste of time because spellcasting is the only class feature that provides a significant increase in power.
Thats nonsense too, psionics are an option, maneuvers are another option. The right combination of feats outside of casting feats can also enable you to dish out thousands of points of damage per round after level 10.

"Ruining your character" is not the problem, having a character concept that is unplayable from the start is the problem.
What the fuck does this even mean? you can ruin your character from the get go.

If you are trying to optimize your character concept then you are indeed doing something incredibly wrong by not mapping out a build, but this is no different than 5E or really any game ever made.
In 3e you are either optimizing your character or you are dooming it to failure. In 5E you can pretty much play anything and do just as well, just in different areas.

But that's not what I said, I said that characters are fundamentally complete at character creation in 5E. It is true that some effective multiclass dips can greatly increase a character's effectiveness, but since not focusing on a core concept has been a bad idea since the concept of classes have ever existed, you will still be leveling one class over all others, meaning your build is defined by the class features you determine at level 3ish. It's like a World of Warcraft subclass.
Wrong. You can take 10 levels of bard after 6 of fighter and then go with wizard 4 and still end up with something playable and competitive in 5e, without even having high charisma or intelligence. In 3e you just ruined your character horribly forever.

Multiclassing has no significant diminishment on character in 3E either, unless you're playing a Druid because a druid's base chasis is totally nuts.
Wrong again. In 3E if you take any level of anything outside of a very specific build, you done fucked up. Its as simple as that.

I've never played a solo-run but I have played Path of the Damned and I can assure you that outside of making flatout retarded choices like maxing perception and dumping constitution, you pretty much cannot screw up a character in PoE. The game is so tactically vapid that as long as you put good armor on your tank and have some sort of of hard cc, you will win every time. I remember picking several feats for the Druid companion that I later learned he had absolutely no use for, and gave him really garbage equipment, he was still effective. Likewise my main character was a chanter, generally considered to be the worst class in the game, I had terrible Resolve and it still never mattered.
That you dont need the absolute best build to beat the game with a party doesnt mean that build choices doesnt matter, it just means the rest of your party members can effectively pick up the slack.

I'm sure you can somehow game the system and get insanely powerful characters but none of it matters when the game is so vapid, simplistic and meaningless.
I cant believe i have to defend this retarded shit from an ignorant asshole but what you are saying is beyond the point, you claimed build choices didnt matter in PoE, but they do. Demonstrably so.
 

duanth123

Arcane
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
822
Location
This island earth
So... "Piles of Shit", eh? Instead of "Pillars of Eternity". I see...

*foot on table*

*lights up that cigar*

I understand now.

*spits on the ground*

You're gonna clear that shit up right now

So, as I was saying. It's all about Balders Gate. You heard about that game?

Old... school... design!

*throws the fucking table*

What the fuck are you even reading!

Let this be our truly final word on Pillars of Eternity.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,521
Location
The Oldest House
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
This review is a piece of history and a grim reminder why holocaust should have happened

This review reminded me of denialists saying that the holocaust never happened.

Get it all on record now – get the films – get the witnesses – because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
8,078
...hey, what about black people being italians? Is that in PoE2? Can someone explain (possibly not an obsiddian shill)?
 

Stokowski

Arcane
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
4,690
Location
Gehenna
Y2Y1PNG.jpg


"I know, but we make great pasta. It balances out."
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Did they fix the character system?
Are there choices by now that do not just do +5% here and +5% there?
Did the combat change from every character having 10-20 effects going on at the same time all of which do nothing except -5% to +5%, adding up to some numbers that are -20% to +20%?

No? Wake me up when the game has anything with impact going on.

Well, at least some of the stuns actually have a duration now...

PS: I did play the game with White March and I agree that the expansion content is much better.
But none of the game's other issues were ever fixed.
Balancing, my ass....

PPS: No, I do not hate PoE. I think it is an okay game (I had fun with it), but the amount of praise it gets from some people is just absurd.


Wow. After reading all the crap otherwise posted, this is the first valid post I read. Yes, PoE is practically impactless mediocre, but perfectly serviceable game. It's hardly the apocalypse. If not for the unnecessary attention given to the game here, it would already be forgotten. Literally, has nothing going on for it.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
The game is impactful in the sense WM2 shows promise and I'm slightly hopeful for PoE2. They have no excuses anymore to not make it a good game.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,957
The game is impactful in the sense WM2 shows promise and I'm slightly hopeful for PoE2. They have no excuses anymore to not make it a good game.
Ah, the "obsidian has ran out of excuses" meme.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Is it a meme? I wasn't aware. I'm not so naive as to be sure they aren't going to fuck it up, I'm expecting them to, but WM2 gave me the slight notion that Absurdian aren't overwhelmingly incompetent and there is a very small chance they'll be able to produce something vaguely resembling good.
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,815
Location
Ommadawn
The game is impactful in the sense WM2 shows promise and I'm slightly hopeful for PoE2. They have no excuses anymore to not make it a good game.
Ah, the "obsidian has ran out of excuses" meme.
Well after 15 years of "it's the publisher's fault, we had no time", to come out with 2 games that are inferior to anything they've made in the past is a bit weird to say the least...
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,703
Well after 15 years of "it's the publisher's fault, we had no time", to come out with 2 games that are inferior to anything they've made in the past is a bit weird to say the least...

They still ran out of time on Pillars (Feargus said he'd fire Adam and Josh if it didn't ship by March) and Tyranny was funded by Paradox.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Tyranny would've been shit even without the involvement of Paradox. That game is just meaningless.
 

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