Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey dismantles white privilege in Tim Cain's Temple of Elemental Evil

[ben_reck]

I think the retrospective pretty much nailed the ToEE experience: lush background art and a whole lotta bugbears/giant kin. Is there a collective noun for bugbears?

As ze argues, this makes for many lackluster encounters. So what if this reflects the original module design? Zirs suggestion about two other modules that, combined, would have made a better crpg was bittersweet. If only Troika had followed zirs advice. Throw Expedition to the Barrier Peaks in there as well. (Of course, the best module ever was Castle Amber).

As for the writing, the writer may not exactly be a stylist. Much time could have been saved by generalizing about all of the filler encounters which would have freed up more time for more provocative topics. Wasn't there a whole gay cabin boy pirate thing going on in that game?

 

[ikarinokami]

this article reminded me of Ann coulter's about how soccer was a sign of moral decay in America, only dumber

 

[Western]

I think Roguey's tilting at windmills if he really thinks any of those things are sacred cows. Consensus seems to be that Troika made some good but flawed games, that were particularly well received since nobody else was really making similar games. Most games have received unofficial support to remove some of the bugs/issue so opinion of the games has improved over time.

That Roguey was given a soapbox to have a rant on for some laughs shouldn't really surprise anyone either, if you're anything but amused (or have managed to get beyond slightly irritated) try not to take anything you read here that seriously for the sake of your mental health.

 

[Volourn]

"RTwP is a rape of the system, whether you find it tasteful or not, and a slap in the face of D&D enthusiasts that D&D CRPGs are supposed to please."

As a 30 year DnD fan, fuck off.


"if you look around the internets plenty people found ToEE quite on the challenging side."

Ireelevant. Every game has plenty of players who find them 'challenging'. They're dumb.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

So now games, media and art should only show content strictly adhering to dogma of RL crusaders and activists? We should expect to answer to critiques of the wounded and down-trodden, lest their fragile sensibilities be injured? Artisic license is to be replaced by guilt-begotten message carrying of this lobby or that.

This is not verbatim what is expressed here but the message is the same and it is complete an utter horseshit. Go weep for the fuckin' trees.

 

[ikarinokami]

So now games, media and art should only show content strictly adhering to dogma of RL crusaders and activists? We should expect to answer to critiques of the wounded and down-trodden, lest their fragile sensibilities be injured? Artisic license is to be replaced by guilt-begotten message carrying of this lobby or that.

This is not verbatim what is expressed here but the message is the same and it is complete an utter horseshit. Go weep for the fuckin' trees.

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”
― Douglas Adams,

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
― Harlan Ellison

“If you want me to treat your ideas with more respect, get some better ideas.”
― John Scalzi


“Nothing limits intelligence more than ignorance; nothing fosters ignorance more than one's own opinions; nothing strengthens opinions more than refusing to look at reality.”
― Sheri S. Tepper

 

[Overboard]

*Trollguey's copious lashings of shit smeared all over the front page*

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”
― Douglas Adams,

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
― Harlan Ellison

“If you want me to treat your ideas with more respect, get some better ideas.”
― John Scalzi


“Nothing limits intelligence more than ignorance; nothing fosters ignorance more than one's own opinions; nothing strengthens opinions more than refusing to look at reality.”
― Sheri S. Tepper

Fixed.

 

[Volourn]

" Fuck off with your stupid opinions."

- Volourn

 

[Roguey]

Since when is D&D a Codex sacred cow

Since Josh Sawyer's resolve to fix D&D resulted in a 1200+ page thread of people getting mad at him for trying to do so.

Though systems could be designed and executed better than D&D or D&D-derivatives, they haven't been. JES calls it grumpy inertia, I call it cargo cult.

 

[Sensuki]

For every quote you can find where someone has complained about the changes on subjects that are not related to cooldowns or the durability mechanic, there's likely at least one looking forward to his altered rules.

 

[Twiglard]

Since when is D&D a Codex sacred cow

Since Codex stated milking it until nothing comes out but jizz.

 

[GlutenBurger]

Good metaphor. Jizz is a far more accessible source of protein than milk, with none of the gas-producing lactose.

 

[Roguey]

To borrow a phrase from Josh, good shit in le shoutbox archive thread

she metagames the whole thing then criticizes both it and other Codexers for not being as elite as she is at it.

I don't really see what I did that was so "metagamey" considering this is a combat-focused crawl with very little role playing. Making good, informed decisions isn't metagaming.

I criticized skyway because he bashes pretty much everything except ARMA2 and JA2 for being beneath him yet he couldn't figure out ToEE, a game with content much less demanding than JA2, and he blamed it on the game instead of himself. Jaesun talks big about how much he hates dumbed-down RPGs, and he was unable to kill Balor. Talk shit, get hit as they say.

Pre-buff every fight, ignore that inner DM screaming at you.

I didn't prebuff before every fight. I just mentioned it's a thing you can do.

There really are no truly difficult RPGs. I thought everyone just sort of knew this

My issue is not with difficulty or things being "hard", (as I mentioned earlier in the thread, make enemies that are difficult to hit and who hit you for a lot of damage, and you have hard content right there) it's with interesting content. Interesting usually means mentally demanding in some way, and/or battles with unique aspects that set them apart from other battles, and ToEE is too lacking in these areas.

Shadowrun: Dragonfall may have had an awful system, but I thought it had interesting content from start to finish. Unlike a lot of other RPGs, its third act was more demanding than the previous two. It's not like I have impossibly-high standards.

 

[Infinitron]

DefJam101 Crispy ^That's for you.

 

[Sensuki]

Roguey you have issues. Go play a competitive game if you want to brag about the achievements of being better at a game than some other people. "Competing" with people while playing a single-player RPG is pretty sad, lol.

Not only that but you didn't record your playthrough, which makes it pretty easy to write an article as if you made the perfect tactical decisions in every encounter on the first attempt whereas in actual fact you probably had to reload a couple of times just like everyone else.

I've been winning money playing computer games for over ten years, and I don't go "haha i'm better than you at games" to anyone unless they act like an upstart like you do.

 

[Grunker]

Roguey you have issues.

That much is undeniable. Doesn't mean he's wrong though. This much:

Interesting usually means mentally demanding in some way, and/or battles with unique aspects that set them apart from other battles, and ToEE is too lacking in these areas.

Shadowrun: Dragonfall may have had an awful system, but I thought it had interesting content from start to finish. Unlike a lot of other RPGs, its third act was more demanding than the previous two. It's not like I have impossibly-high standards.

is all true.

 

[Sensuki]

Doesn't matter, that post is addressing attitude problems only.

Those playthroughs he's comparing to are likely pretty historical too (ie. between 5-10 years old). Despite the fact that some people are incapable of learning, 5-10 years experience in playing games is a lot. If Jaesun played ToEE in 2004 or something and Roguey's saying haha I'm better than you based on a playthrough from 2014, that's actually pretty funny.

I'm going to be recording my very first run of the Pillars of Eternity demo, be a man and record yours too and then feel free to compare yourself to me in terms of efficacy

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

His methods and delivery are transparent and predictable. Arrogant trolls especially are successful at luring people in. I just find them most pathetic. A smattering of non-duplicitous thought in the sea of shit is not redeeming; Chocolate chips on shit don't make it a cupcake.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if Roguey were completely normal, successful and likeable IRL. Everyone needs a release.

 

[felipepepe]

Same thing about the "sacred cows". With that shitty attitude you could write about Dragon Age 2 and still come out as an asshole.

In short, Roguey is the equivalent of this guy:



"Oh, you are all angry because I'm touching your sacred cows and pointing out how superior I am!"
"No, it's because you're an asshole."

 

[Twiglard]

Good analysis, tho presumed troll effective due to number of replies elicited. You just like him, do you?

 

[Shadenuat]

At first I thought article was just an example of looking at a game as at glass half empty, but still with something fair in it, but after scrolling through it once again I found out that there's actually very little about game itself. The first part is just bashing D&D, yet it says ToEE can be completed with almost any party - which is true, even final boss is optional... a lot of ToEE's content actually is, depending on your alignment. So it's only UI stuff that is fair.
The second part might just give the author a position in modern gaming journalism, while third might be just a random post in the internet.

tl;dr it is an opinionated piece of garbage full of roguey-talk.
If I was a random stalker reading Codex articles starting with this one, I would not continue to read any other Codex article again, ever.

 

[Roguey]

Huh, my 10,000th post was pretty decent, though not great. Palindrome time.

Not only that but you didn't record your playthrough, which makes it pretty easy to write an article as if you made the perfect tactical decisions in every encounter on the first attempt whereas in actual fact you probably had to reload a couple of times just like everyone else.

I can say with all honesty that I beat the encounter outside of Lareth's room and the Balor on my first attempt. I was even honest about how long it took me to kill the balor.

I've been winning money playing computer games for over ten years, and I don't go "haha i'm better than you at games" to anyone unless they act like an upstart like you do.

And I'm doing the same thing to those two. OUROBOROS

Those playthroughs he's comparing to are likely pretty historical too (ie. between 5-10 years old). Despite the fact that some people are incapable of learning, 5-10 years experience in playing games is a lot. If Jaesun played ToEE in 2004 or something and Roguey's saying haha I'm better than you based on a playthrough from 2014, that's actually pretty funny.

I linked to skyway's thread in the article, it's from 2012.

I don't think 5-10 years experience makes much difference considering Jaesun's been playing RPGs since the 80s/90s, and one of his favorite catchphrases is "Was KotOR your first RPG?"

Anyway 2007: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-toughest-rpg-u-cant-beat.18546/#post-364629
2009: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/temple-of-elemental-evil.33745/page-3#post-837414
2010: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/for-fucks-sake-toee.46652/page-4#post-1241994
2011: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/need-to-finish-toee-damnit.57971/#post-1599913
2013: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.ph...ming-of-the-messiah.82015/page-5#post-2594919

I looked up all these things just now, hooray for search.

 

[Sensuki]

I can say with all honesty that I beat the encounter outside of Lareth's room and the Balor on my first attempt. I was even honest about how long it took me to kill the balor.

That was not in dispute.

And I'm doing the same thing to those two. OUROBOROS

Pardon me? ah i get it, Jaesun and the other guy have made u mad. Lol. What did you do to Roguey Jaesun to deserve such targeted attacks?

I linked to skyway's thread in the article, it's from 2012.

I don't think 5-10 years experience makes much difference considering Jaesun's been playing RPGs since the 80s/90s, and one of his favorite catchphrases is "Was KotOR your first RPG?"

Anyway 2007: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-toughest-rpg-u-cant-beat.18546/#post-364629
2009: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/temple-of-elemental-evil.33745/page-3#post-837414
2010: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/for-fucks-sake-toee.46652/page-4#post-1241994
2011: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/need-to-finish-toee-damnit.57971/#post-1599913
2013: http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.ph...ming-of-the-messiah.82015/page-5#post-2594919

I looked up all these things just now, hooray for search.

Based on that I'm pretty sure his same "I've never gotten past the Balor" is from the same playthrough in all of those threads, indicating that it is indeed a playthrough older than 7 years. Thanks for doing the legwork for me though.

Casual bypass of my PE comment too.

 

[BBMorti]

Jaesun clearly had 5 playthrough's end at the Balor, gotta be rough.

 

[DefJam101]

There really are no truly difficult RPGs. I thought everyone just sort of knew this

My issue is not with difficulty or things being "hard", (as I mentioned earlier in the thread, make enemies that are difficult to hit and who hit you for a lot of damage, and you have hard content right there) it's with interesting content. Interesting usually means mentally demanding in some way, and/or battles with unique aspects that set them apart from other battles, and ToEE is too lacking in these areas.

This comment was not a response to your article so I don't know why you quoted it unless you were just ragesearching retardo land to find shoutbox quotes of me. Especially since the context of that quote is me saying exactly what you just said in different words, if I recall. Difficulty is unimportant unless the game is actually difficult (most RPGs aren't), what matters is whether the game has interesting things to do.