Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey fights for social justice in Josh Sawyer's Icewind Dale II

[Rake]

ACHTUNG ACHTUNG

YOU ARE HEADING INTO THE WILDERNESS AND STRAYING FROM THE PLOT PATH!

PLEASE VISIT POMAB'S SHOP AT ONCE AND ARM YOURSELF FOR THE TASK AHEAD!

Did you know you can exchange gold for various useful equipment?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

That "Achtung Achtung" part is a killer.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Surely you're jesting? I'm willing to bet that any random kid I pick off the street will go straight to Pomab to buy shit minimum after the first time they die to those goblins. Yet you're defending the kind of stubborn retardation that won't buy equipment after an experienced warrior tells you that you are likely to die if you don't shop?

How much clearer can you fucking be?

Remove the "his prices are too high" part, add one where he says going into battle with just a quarterstaff and no armor would be a huge mistake.

I remember Adam Brennecke dying a bunch of times in the prologue of IWD2 before he got the idea to buy his party better equipment (I think at the suggestion of those watching). So much obstinacy.

The "it's expensive" part is followed by "but it's better to be out of money than dead". If the person still can't make the connection, then they're hopeless and only "BUY SOMETHING BETTER THAN A DAMN WOODEN STICK AND COTTON SHIRT, STUPID" dialogue prompts when they try to leave will be of help.

How much clearer can you fucking be?

Can you find Caius? If yes, then you will never understand.

The most painful thing is that the guard goes to the extent of not only telling you to just take the silt strider so you can skip directly to Balmora, he tells you how to get to the silt strider. You know, in case you missed the house-sized bug directly in front of you when you got out of the ship and that can be seen from any point in Seyda Neen.

We may not have any career misogynists outside GD but I'm seeing responses to Roguey posts that amount to "fucking bitches man" when really they should just read "holy shit go away". This worries me.

It amounts to the same thing unless you're looking for something to be offended about.

 

[wergle]

roguey isn't even a bitch, let alone a bitches

 

[Clockwork Knight]

She's definitely a bitch, and proud of it. Is that a problem?

 

[Grunker]

ACHTUNG ACHTUNG

YOU ARE HEADING INTO THE WILDERNESS AND STRAYING FROM THE PLOT PATH!

PLEASE VISIT POMAB'S SHOP AT ONCE AND ARM YOURSELF FOR THE TASK AHEAD!

Did you know you can exchange gold for various useful equipment?

 

[crawlkill]

It amounts to the same thing unless you're looking for something to be offended about.

it is not the same thing

 

[Monty]

Oh good, here we go again.

 

[almondblight]

The "it's expensive" part is followed by "but it's better to be out of money than dead". If the person still can't make the connection, then they're hopeless and only "BUY SOMETHING BETTER THAN A DAMN WOODEN STICK AND COTTON SHIRT, STUPID" dialogue prompts when they try to leave will be of help.

Yeah, it's not like NPCs in RPGs are prone to hyperbole. I mean, I didn't even leave Candlekeep in Baldur's Gate because people told me I would get killed out there.

The problem that dumb/noob players have with complex CRPGs is that they suffer from a kind of tunnel vision that prevents them from realizing and exercising all of their options. It's like they're constantly trying to do the minimum necessary actions in order to advance, so they miss out on a huge chunk of game mechanics, until later in the game those mechanics become crucial and come back to bite them in the ass.

Eh. Having to buy stuff before you fight isn't complex, it just goes against convention. The thing is, if the goblins were a cakewalk with the starting gear, and people complained that all the stuff in the shop was obtainable for free in the next area - like in most RPGs - people would be saying the exact opposite. "LOL NEWBS, OF COURSE you don't just run around spending all you money before you even have your FIRST FIGHT, COMMON SENSE should tell you that you should fight a few battles first to see what you need" etc.

...but in this case dying to goblins when you only have quarterstaves on everyone does exactly what it should - teach newbs to buy equipment ffs.

It's not a bad way to show players that they need to stock up, but it shouldn't be surprising that players die a few times before they realize that. Unless you think the reaction to losing a single battle in an RPG should be "I...lost?! Something's not right here...back to the town!"

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yeah, it's not like NPCs in RPGs are prone to hyperbole. I mean, I didn't even leave Candlekeep in Baldur's Gate because people told me I would get killed out there.

NPCs in RPGs are also prove to giving unsolicited advice to adventurers. Remember that guy in Candlekeep who was strangely eager to teach you about the art of killing uninvited animal guests in cellars?

It's not a bad way to show players that they need to stock up, but it shouldn't be surprising that players die a few times before they realize that. Unless you think the reaction to losing a single battle in an RPG should be "I...lost?! Something's not right here...back to the town!"

As opposed to "I...lost?! Something's not right here...let's try the same tactic again! And again! And again!"? Sure.

 

[almondblight]

NPCs in RPGs are also prove to giving unsolicited advice to adventurers. Remember that guy in Candlekeep who was strangely eager to teach you about the art of killing uninvited animal guests in cellars?

Yeah, tutorial NPCs are usually accurate. NPCs that talk about danger, much less so.

As opposed to "I...lost?! Something's not right here...let's try the same tactic again! And again! And again!"? Sure.

This may come as a surprise to you but there is the option to...wait for it...try other tactics. If you lose a battle you're not forced to either run to the store to buy new equipment or try the exact same tactic over and over again. Shocking, I know.

 

[Infinitron]

As opposed to "I...lost?! Something's not right here...let's try the same tactic again! And again! And again!"? Sure.

Actually, because of randomness, that might actually work. That's why there's people who want to reduce random intervals in RPGs. Randomness encourages noob tunnel vision of the type I described.

 

[Rake]

It's not a bad way to show players that they need to stock up, but it shouldn't be surprising that players die a few times before they realize that. Unless you think the reaction to losing a single battle in an RPG should be "I...lost?! Something's not right here...back to the town!"

But that's the point. If he hadn't a clue about D&D and lost 3-4-5 times at the goblins, ok. At some point he should have understand that he is doing something wrong.
If he lost 20 times and still didn't try to buy equipment and instead went to cry on forums...sorry but he is an idiot.

 

[almondblight]

But that's the point. If he hadn't a clue about D&D and lost 3-4-5 times at the goblins, ok. At some point he should have understand that he is doing something wrong.

Well, yeah. Or you kite the goblins until you manage to kill them with sticks. I think I might have done the latter the first time. But though I actually enjoy games going against convention and surprising spikes in difficulty, I don't think it's terrible design to want the challenge to be focused mainly on circumstances where the player knows what they're expected to have (though, again, that's not necessarily my personal preference).

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This may come as a surprise to you but there is the option to...wait for it...try other tactics. If you lose a battle you're not forced to either run to the store to buy new equipment or try the exact same tactic over and over again. Shocking, I know.

One of those tactics is buying some good equipment like a helpful NPC suggests. There is a difference between being persistent and being a stubborn mule.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I would assume the amount of available tactix when you have 6 lvl 1 dudes with staves is rather limited to begin with.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

It's maths, you fucking colonial hambeasts.

 

[almondblight]

One of those tactics is buying some good equipment like a helpful NPC suggests. There is a difference between being persistent and being a stubborn mule.

Yes, "one of" being the operative word. I'm not sure why you're acting like "keep trying until you get better" is stupid but "let me lootwhore my way through so all I have to do is click on things" is somehow monocle. I'd argue the opposite.

I would assume the amount of available tactix when you have 6 lvl 1 dudes with staves is rather limited to begin with.

Go ahead and try that fight again without buying things. It's not that hard, but if you want to keep your characters alive it will require some tactics. Which means it shouldn't be terribly surprising that people new to IE games and D&D would probably need a few tries.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Like Roxor said, there's not much room to get better when you're playing as a bunch of level 1 faggots equipped with wooden sticks and woolen shirts (unless "try and get better" = "try and get better rolls"). Maybe you should get the hint after your butt is kicked for the 7th time. I don't think buying starting equipment like the game suggests you do counts as lootwhoring, by the way.

 

[almondblight]

And like I said, go ahead and play that again. I just tried it last night (because of the discussion here), and it's not that hard. If you do and still think that you need to rely on lucky rolls to win that battle unequipped, there's not much to discuss - you just suck.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I imagine there would be more on insane difficulty, which adds creatures to certain fights without giving them more health, and you can disable the double damage.

I'm currently trying this, and it's fucking hard. I disabled the "double damage" but monsters still have increased BAB so they hit way more often. While it didn't make the prologue too hard (just hard as it should), it really kicks in at chapter 1. I'm currently trying to enter the Shaengarne river and repeatedly get my ass handed to me by lousy orcs. My low level characters get killed faster than they can kill, and enemies get lots of criticals that one-shot kill my characters. I'll try it some more but I fear every fight, including "trivial" ones, has to be micromanaged to death and rest between every fight seems mandatory. I thought ID2 was too easy on normal, but this is the opposite extreme. Looks like a typical case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

 

[Roguey]

I'm currently trying this, and it's fucking hard. I disabled the "double damage" but monsters still have increased BAB so they hit way more often. While it didn't make the prologue too hard (just hard as it should), it really kicks in at chapter 1. I'm currently trying to enter the Shaengarne river and repeatedly get my ass handed to me by lousy orcs. My low level characters get killed faster than they can kill, and enemies get lots of criticals that one-shot kill my characters. I'll try it some more but I fear every fight, including "trivial" ones, has to be micromanaged to death and rest between every fight seems mandatory. I thought ID2 was too easy on normal, but this is the opposite extreme. Looks like a typical case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

Maybe try lowering it to just hard instead of insane? That gives them a 50% increase instead of double.

 

[Zed]

Uh, slightly off-topic perhaps, but since you all seem so knowledgeable about IWD2 and I'm planning my IWD2 party:
Can Paladins of Helm multiclassed into Fighter use the Holy Avenger? Or must the paladin be a 'pure' paladin.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Maybe try lowering it to just hard instead of insane? That gives them a 50% increase instead of double.

I was only interested in the added enemies, artificially buffed-up monsters are not a satisfactory way to improve difficulty AFAIC. I'll keep-on trying a bit, because it made the prologue's final fight way more interesting than the vanilla one, so it may be worth suffering a bit more. If it gets really too annoying, I'll just flick the "insane" mode on and off according to my patience at the time.

 

[Roguey]

Uh, slightly off-topic perhaps, but since you all seem so knowledgeable about IWD2 and I'm planning my IWD2 party:
Can Paladins of Helm multiclassed into Fighter use the Holy Avenger? Or must the paladin be a 'pure' paladin.

Anyone with levels of paladin can use it.

I was only interested in the added enemies, artificially buffed-up monsters are not a satisfactory way to improve difficulty AFAIC. I'll keep-on trying a bit, because it made the prologue's final fight way more interesting than the vanilla one, so it may be worth suffering a bit more. If it gets really too annoying, I'll just flick the "insane" mode on and off according to my patience at the time.

I think hard also adds enemies, based on how it worked in IWD and what it says in the manual.

Listed below are the specific areas in the original game that are affected by installing the expansion. These changes take effect under two conditions: if the game is set to “Hard” mode (or higher) or if you have beaten the Heart of Winter expansion.
...
In the Orc Cave, an extra ogre appears next to the first and an extra orc archer appears next to the others. If you’re playing on “Insane” difficulty, you’ll face three extra ogres and three more orc archers.

STARTING THE ADVENTURE: WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD
Note: The following walk-through assumes the game is being played on normal difficulty; if you have it
cranked up to a higher difficulty, then expect significantly more enemies and treasure from your
encounters in Targos.
...
Be on your guard - there are goblins scattered all over town, and they’ll attack you in pairs or singly (even more if the difficulty setting is higher).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I think hard also adds enemies, based on how it worked in IWD and what it says in the manual.

OK, if it comes to that, I'll try "hard" before I try "core". Thanks.