Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey fights for social justice in Josh Sawyer's Icewind Dale II

[Grunker]

I don't see the problem with someone wanting to present information in a more understandable fashion. IWD2 didn't dumb down the gameplay, in fact it smartened it up.

You dodged the question. The fact was that Sawyer claimed people died to the goblins in easthaven. I could play these games as a 10-year-old not understanding the rules.

You know that you and I see completely eye to eye when it comes to documentation. The problem here is that he is either making a bullshit claim in terms of difficulty or he is saying the difficulty was too high in a game that had a pretty good difficulty.

Also http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/351870865417192878http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/330578902298688741

And yet I still cling to the fragile hope that some day you'll recognize that I never said balance doesn't matter (in fact I've said it's important); what I'm saying is that chasing the concept of perfect balance is a fool's errand based on:

1) People's previous experience (in system design, going through too many iterations due to playtesting actively harms systems because they end up fragmented, in game design, you end up with an eternal mill of balance patches)

2) A non-infinite amount of playtesting (Sawyer's simplistic "I'll watch how people play and change the game" is cute but completely ignores his finite testing-time and resources)

3) The above gets compounded by Obsidian's previous history of playtesting and Q&A

You idolize Sawyer because in your mind, he's the first that's trying to do what he's trying to do. What you fail to recognize is that many have tried the exact same before him. All have succumbed to problem #1 and #2.

 

[Grunker]

More importantly: How can you find any sort of solace in Josh wanting to cater to these imbeciles?

I don't see the problem with someone wanting to present information in a more understandable fashion. IWD2 didn't dumb down the gameplay, in fact it smartened it up.

It depends on who are the people that someone is trying to make understand. There is such a thing as too much.

I disagree. There isn't such a thing as "too much documentation." Again Roguey should learn to love the KotC she hates so much; it had the best documentation of any cRPG I've ever played.

However, my question wasn't about documentation.

 

[evdk]

More importantly: How can you find any sort of solace in Josh wanting to cater to these imbeciles?

I don't see the problem with someone wanting to present information in a more understandable fashion. IWD2 didn't dumb down the gameplay, in fact it smartened it up.

It depends on who are the people that someone is trying to make understand. There is such a thing as too much.

I disagree. There isn't such a thing as "too much documentation." Again Roguey should learn to love the KotC she hates so much; it had the best documentation of any cRPG I've ever played.

However, my question wasn't about documentation.

Sorry, coming from your initial post I've read Roguey's answer wrong. You are right about the documentation.

 

[wergle]

I meant to say that, ironically, Roguey is part of why there are so many misogynist assholes on this forum.

Oh I forgot to respond to this.

I don't think so. They were here before me and they'll still be here when I'm gone.

I was back here in 2007 and the only real misogynists I remember from those days are Lyric Suite and nomask. And this was in fucking general discussion.

 

[Rake]

I meant to say that, ironically, Roguey is part of why there are so many misogynist assholes on this forum.

Oh I forgot to respond to this.

I don't think so. They were here before me and they'll still be here when I'm gone.

I was back here in 2007 and the only real misogynists I remember from those days are Lyric Suite and nomask. And this was in fucking general discussion.

Well, outside GD we still don't have real misogynists except when Roguey is involved. She really wakes the misogynist inside people, but i think it's intentional.

 

[wergle]

We may not have any career misogynists outside GD but I'm seeing responses to Roguey posts that amount to "fucking bitches man" when really they should just read "holy shit go away". This worries me.

Also isn't Roguey a dude?

 

[Roguey]

You dodged the question. The fact was that Sawyer claimed people died to the goblins in easthaven. I could play these games as a 10-year-old not understanding the rules.

You know that you and I see completely eye to eye when it comes to documentation. The problem here is that he is either making a bullshit claim in terms of difficulty or he is saying the difficulty was too high in a game that had a pretty good difficulty.

I read it as his saying "We didn't present information to players properly" which would be correct. IWD2 improved this. In the party creation screen you're told what makes a balanced party. When you're assigning points to stats it tells you exactly what kind of benefit you receive at each number. In the opening map of Targos you find various weapons, shields, and armors scattered about, in addition to what you can buy from the first shopkeeper, whereas IWD just assumes you already know you should enter the shop and buy equipment for everybody.

I do believe people actually came to the Interplay board with those kinds of complaints. I decided to go check myself.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000818055319/http://feedback.interplay.com/icewind/archive85.html

Attention BIS: Game Is Too Hard - My Name Is Gladiata 21:46:53 7/02/100 (14)

Unfortunately that entire page has its links messed up so I have no idea what that complaint was about. Also lawl "100." 19100 baby.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000920031920/http://feedback.interplay.com/icewind/msg1/22840.html

Hi! I'm a newbie... I've only played Diablo, so this is confusing. I think i have the ability to fight, but at the beginning, there are some ranged goblins. They kill all of my characters before I have a chance to do anything! Am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance!

http://web.archive.org/web/20000917073549/http://feedback.interplay.com/icewind/msg1/15643.html

I was just curious if everybody is having the same trouble with rooms that I have. I'm saving and reloading so often that it's sickening. Two examples that pop into my head immediately include the archer room in the last level of Dragon's Eye (where the loot is gold and arrows, but the room is FILLED with elite archers). And now I just walked into a very small room filled with fire salamanders, and their tribal leader. I see no way to exercise strategy in such a small space, and the salamanders will kill my poor mage with their bursts of flame alone. *sigh*
Anyway, I'm really just venting. I find myself saving and reloading so much, which I hate (and is bad game design, mind you), and yet I can't stop playing the game. I suppose it's an unhealthy addiction. I just wish the game weren't so damn difficult.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000916165502/http://feedback.interplay.com/icewind/msg1/9218.html

Is it just me, or does this seem a bit on the hard side when you start out? Going in to that cave of orcs at level 1, I got slaughtered multiple times before deciding that the ol' "bait and pull" method was the only way to survive.
I thought they had said they had learned something from the annoyance of having to reload BG every 10 minutes cause of dying.
Has anybody else noticed this and think that the combat could have been "balanced" a bit better to avoid the frequency of death? Or am I just ka-razy? =)

http://web.archive.org/web/20001031155050/http://feedback.interplay.com/icewind/msg1/1474.html

i have spent at least 10 hours now trying to get past that goblin infested town after the avalanche!! i just cant do it guys,i cant rest because the friggin goblin commanders or whatever show up and kick my ass every time!!!i cant make it,i just dont understand how i die so quick..i dont want to cheat,but i want to see the rest of the game! someone tell me how to build a good party or something..Tell me exactly what party i could get by with,(details please)..thanks guys

Ah, that ancient mid-to-late 90s forum design. Where megathreads would create obnoxious horizontal scrolling.

You idolize Sawyer because in your mind, he's the first that's trying to do what he's trying to do. What you fail to recognize is that many have tried the exact same before him. All have succumbed to problem #1 and #2.

I don't believe anyone making single-player crpgs has ever used his method of making RPGs except Bioware with ME2 and that worked out well for them.

I disagree. There isn't such a thing as "too much documentation." Again Roguey should learn to love the KotC she hates so much; it had the best documentation of any cRPG I've ever played.

KotC was my favorite RPG from 2009 though...?

 

[Rake]

We may not have any career misogynists outside GD but I'm seeing responses to Roguey posts that amount to "fucking bitches man" when really they should just read "holy shit go away". This worries me.

Why? Also most Codexers aren't realy misoginists. They just have a knee jerk reaction to "politicaly correct" content in games, and making a big deal out of it. In most cases they are indifferent to the issue and just don't want it to have a strong presence in games. That applies for all political correctness.

Also isn't Roguey a dude?

Who knows...

 

[Grunker]

stuff

I'm sorry but I still don't catch your drift. You quote a bunch of people who said the game was too hard... but are you trying to make a point about documentation (that I would agree to easily) or difficulty (which I wouldn't agree to in a million years)?

KotC was my favorite RPG from 2009 though...?

My apologies. I could swear I saw you dizzin' it.

You still wiggle nicely around the core 3 points that I've made to you in many threads, however.

And oh, by the way, maybe no one has balanced a single-player cRPG like that, but if you think system design procedures aren't enough evidence, currently most multiplayer games are balanced pretty much after Sawyer's philosophy (Observe player behaviour -> Act accordingly). For systems (P&P) we know it leads to fragmentation, and from multiplayer, we know it leads to balance-windmills.

And again, this is enlarged by Obsidian having showed their difficulty with proper testing and Q&A.

You know that I agree with you that Sawyer's game design philosophy is more sound than many of his colleagues' (at least he has one, ZING), but the above shatter the foundation of his balance-tenet, which is one of the aspects of his game design philosophy I have little love for. Not because balance is unimpotant (it isn't), but because striving for perfect balance is a fool's errand that leads to the problems described above (and that's without mentioning "smaller" problems such as the identical mechanics which plagued, for example, 4th edition of D&D).

 

[Grunker]

We may not have any career misogynists outside GD but I'm seeing responses to Roguey posts that amount to "fucking bitches man" when really they should just read "holy shit go away". This worries me.

Misogyny on the Codex worries you? Boy, if you're worried about the misogyny, I think you should escape this place while you can.

 

[wergle]

but where will i talk about computer roleplaying games

 

[Delterius]

We may not have any career misogynists outside GD but I'm seeing responses to Roguey posts that amount to "fucking bitches man" when really they should just read "holy shit go away". This worries me.

Misogyny on the Codex worries you? Boy, if you're worried about the misogyny, I think you should run away from the internet entirely.

 

[Roguey]

"politicaly correct"...political correctness.

Looks like I have to break out

again. Here's hoping it leads to more twitter attention.

Speaking of which, this article finally got a developer retweet. My reputation remains upheld.

I'm sorry but I still don't catch your drift. You quote a bunch of people who said the game was too hard... but are you trying to make a point about documentation (that I would agree to easily) or difficulty (which I wouldn't agree to in a million years)?

I thought IWD erred on the side of being mind-numbingly easy, so the former. I wouldn't want it being any easier; that way lies Neverwinter Nights 2.

My apologies. I could swear I saw you dizzin' it.

I probably have, since it doesn't fix those 3.5 rules well enough.

And oh, by the way, maybe no one has balanced a single-player cRPG like that, but if you think system design procedures aren't enough evidence, currently most multiplayer games are balanced pretty much after Sawyer's philosophy (Observe player behaviour -> Act accordingly). For systems (P&P) we know it leads to fragmentation, and from multiplayer, we know it leads to balance-windmills.

And again, this is enlarged by Obsidian having showed their difficulty with proper testing and Q&A.

Josh eventually balanced New Vegas decently enough. He'll probably keep balancing PE in his free time just like he did there.

 

[Grunker]

New Vegas was a fucking walk in the park with next to no variables in the system.

 

[almondblight]

...whereas IWD just assumes you already know you should enter the shop and buy equipment for everybody.

Yeah, I assume he was talking about this. Most RPGs give you decent starting equipment, enough to at least survive your first fight. In IWD, you're most likely going to get slaughtered by the goblins if you go after them without buying something first. That's what happened to me the first time I played (also my first IE game, so I was a bit surprised by the combat in general). I actually found it enjoyable, but I can see how people would get annoyed by it.

 

[tuluse]

You have to buy stuff in BG1 as well, but I think Gorion specifically tells you to.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I think i have the ability to fight, but at the beginning, there are some ranged goblins. They kill all of my characters before I have a chance to do anything! Am I doing something wrong?

 

[CappenVarra]

You have to buy stuff in BG1 as well, but I think Gorion specifically tells you to.

And in IWD1 Hrothgar tells you Pomab's is next door and that "you'd be better off well-equipped and short of coin than the other way around. Ill-prepared travelers don't last long in these parts". What more could you do, have a quest for buying starting gear?

I agree that initial equipment is in principle better handled as part of character creation (possibly tied to chosen skills etc. mechanically, and makes sense story-wise because assuming your characters traveled to the Spine of the World from civilized areas with no equipment at all is kinda dumb), but in this case dying to goblins when you only have quarterstaves on everyone does exactly what it should - teach newbs to buy equipment ffs.

 

[Roguey]

You have to buy stuff in BG1 as well, but I think Gorion specifically tells you to.

And in IWD1 Hrothgar tells you Pomab's is next door and that "you'd be better off well-equipped and short of coin than the other way around. Ill-prepared travelers don't last long in these parts". What more could you do, have a quest for buying starting gear?

That's more of a suggestion than a command and he tells you Pomab's prices are high, which would discourage some people from wanting to buy anything. Then I guess they just forget they can buy equipment after exploring the town and doing all the side quests.

 

[Grunker]

Surely you're jesting? I'm willing to bet that any random kid I pick off the street will go straight to Pomab to buy shit minimum after the first time they die to those goblins. Yet you're defending the kind of stubborn retardation that won't buy equipment after an experienced warrior tells you that you are likely to die if you don't shop?

How much clearer can you fucking be?

 

[evdk]

Surely you're jesting? I'm willing to bet that any random kid I pick off the street will go straight to Pomab to buy shit minimum after the first time they die to those goblins. Yet you're defending the kind of stubborn retardation that won't buy equipment after an experienced warrior tells you that you are likely to die if you don't shop?

How much clearer can you fucking be?

Can you find Caius? If yes, then you will never understand.

 

[Roguey]

Surely you're jesting? I'm willing to bet that any random kid I pick off the street will go straight to Pomab to buy shit minimum after the first time they die to those goblins. Yet you're defending the kind of stubborn retardation that won't buy equipment after an experienced warrior tells you that you are likely to die if you don't shop?

How much clearer can you fucking be?

Remove the "his prices are too high" part, add one where he says going into battle with just a quarterstaff and no armor would be a huge mistake.

I remember Adam Brennecke dying a bunch of times in the prologue of IWD2 before he got the idea to buy his party better equipment (I think at the suggestion of those watching). So much obstinacy.

 

[Infinitron]

The problem that dumb/noob players have with complex CRPGs is that they suffer from a kind of tunnel vision that prevents them from realizing and exercising all of their options. It's like they're constantly trying to do the minimum necessary actions in order to advance, so they miss out on a huge chunk of game mechanics, until later in the game those mechanics become crucial and come back to bite them in the ass.

Psychologically it's probably similar to the reaction of an ADHD sufferer when confronted with a long article. "Fuck it, not reading this, give me the summary." "WAIT, what do you mean the fine print was important?!"

 

[Darth Roxor]

ACHTUNG ACHTUNG

YOU ARE HEADING INTO THE WILDERNESS AND STRAYING FROM THE PLOT PATH!

PLEASE VISIT POMAB'S SHOP AT ONCE AND ARM YOURSELF FOR THE TASK AHEAD!

Did you know you can exchange gold for various useful equipment?

 

[Rake]

The problem that dumb/noob players have with complex CRPGs is that they suffer from a kind of tunnel vision that prevents them from realizing and exercising all of their options. It's like they're constantly trying to do the minimum necessary actions in order to advance, so they miss out on a huge chunk of game mechanics, until later in the game those mechanics become crucial and come back to bite them in the ass.

Psychologically it's probably similar to the reaction of an ADHD sufferer when confronted with a long article. "Fuck it, not reading this, give me the summary." "WAIT, what do you mean the fine print was important?!"

Well, they must snap out of that mentality or go play another game. Not change the game to conform to their mentality.